FFXIV Criticisms

[MsSideEye]

You do know almost the entirety of any high level content is one person fails the entire group dies based mechanics right? It's literally one of the major differences between other raiding games because FF14's personal responsibility requirements are considerably higher...

Yes, but how much of those are required? Which was my point.

Unlike some of the other games in the genre, which encourage/push players over into that higher level content where a single death results in a group wipe, you could go through nearly all the content in the game and never touch Savage/Extreme. And even then, the 'One person dies, it's a wipe' set up usually only hold true on the cutting edge of the offered fights. Once that stuff is no longer relevant, wipes only tend to happen when someone just flat out doesn't know what to do and usually you've got someone to explain it at that point.

The vast majority of players in FF14 do not raid. They do not do extremes or savages until the content is super outdated. As such, that pressure to preform, to be perfect isn't anywhere near as strong as it would be in WoW, League, or other games where things like Mythic + and Ranked Leagues are much more expected out of the player base. That leads to a less competitive setting overall.

[Lurker1]

My only problem with this game is not gameplay but the leveling and storys are wayyyy to much for me to stand but not a bad game overall.

[Necromantic]

My only problem with this game is not gameplay but the leveling and storys are wayyyy to much for me to stand but not a bad game overall.

The leveling isn’t super bad but the story is now so drug out that I feel bad for new players.

WoW and Chromie Time do get my respect in this regard.

[MsSideEye]

My only problem with this game is not gameplay but the leveling and storys are wayyyy to much for me to stand but not a bad game overall.

This is why I honestly tell people to treat FFXIV more like a book series or a long running anime/TV series. Taking it in pieces and over the course of several weeks to months is a lot more manageable than trying to blitz it. That said, it could just be not for you period if you're the kind of player who'd prefer something, for example, like Far Cry over Metal Gear Solid.

The leveling isn’t super bad but the story is now so drug out that I feel bad for new players.

WoW and Chromie Time do get my respect in this regard.

While I don't disagree that now having four expansions worth of story is kinda huge for a new player to get into, I do feel that having it be a main story for the characters to play through is a bit better than Chromie time, if only because going from something like Pandaria to immediately jumping to Shadowlands is a big whiplash. I do like that it's an option, but it also harms any real storytelling that connects back to previous content that would be needed to know information.

[Yarathir]

Thank god the entire story is still required.

[Wrecktangle]

For anything other than high level content ie Savage or Ultimates, it's definitely completely irrelevant due to the low DPS requirements and not being limited on res, minus the debuff

It's important to not take a single post out of context without considering what I responding to. Case in point - Mrs SideEye made the comment that they believe FF14 has a better community because it's less competitive due to fewer usage of "one player fails, we all fail" scenarios which I don't find accurate, thus strongly suggesting bias as the driving factor here.

So yes, your statement above is accurate (being irrelevant due to low dps requirements), but actually just further supports my point, because in other games (WoW in this context) this is also true. They then go on to extrapolate beyond about "WoW pushing/encouraging into higher level content where single death results in a group wipe", but again this feels like bias to me. Many players can and do just play base mythic dungeons, maybe some low keys, and raid normal mode or LFR. Just the same as FF14 players may never touch savage or extremes+ while it's relevant. Even the ones who dabble in mid keys and heroic progression don't have huge single point of failures like Mrs. SideEye is suggesting.

Yes, but how much of those are required? Which was my point.

Unlike some of the other games in the genre, which encourage/push players over into that higher level content where a single death results in a group wipe, you could go through nearly all the content in the game and never touch Savage/Extreme. And even then, the 'One person dies, it's a wipe' set up usually only hold true on the cutting edge of the offered fights. Once that stuff is no longer relevant, wipes only tend to happen when someone just flat out doesn't know what to do and usually you've got someone to explain it at that point.

The vast majority of players in FF14 do not raid. They do not do extremes or savages until the content is super outdated. As such, that pressure to preform, to be perfect isn't anywhere near as strong as it would be in WoW, League, or other games where things like Mythic + and Ranked Leagues are much more expected out of the player base. That leads to a less competitive setting overall.

See above to @La. None of it is required in either game. You decide what content you want to consume in both identically. You're letting bias control the narrative and not looking at it objectively. And just so we're clear because I can never tell who is just on a crusade here or who is actually capable of discussion I like FF14 > WoW...

[MsSideEye]

See above to @La. None of it is required in either game. You decide what content you want to consume in both identically. You're letting bias control the narrative and not looking at it objectively. And just so we're clear because I can never tell who is just on a crusade here or who is actually capable of discussion I like FF14 > WoW...

You're right, It isn't required in either game. But that doesn't mean it's presented in both games the same either.

FFXIV requires you to go out of your way and talk to someone specifically to unlock these aspects. Last I played, once you hit a specific item level, WoW specifically points you to the higher level difficulties and even had an entire UI element centered around it for Mythic Plus. It's pushed towards more people, thus making them more aware of it. I also think part of it also comes to the option of choice in WoW as well. With talents, trinkets and so many other things that could control your contribution to the team, it leads to there being a 'right' selection that most take as the 'truth'.

And don't worry, Wreck, as I said before, I know you're more of the level headed ones. We might disagree on this point and I might indeed have a bias, but I don't consider you like others in this thread.

[Arlette]

The leveling isn’t super bad but the story is now so drug out that I feel bad for new players.

WoW and Chromie Time do get my respect in this regard.

Ah yes the feature that completely segments the story of a single expansion out of the larger narrative, that FORCES you to just leave and go to future content even if you're in the middle of doing an expansion's story when you hit a certain level, and one that has no cohesion or anything even remotely attempted as a recap to get people to care about what's happening in the most current story.

If an entirely new player tried out WoW, they'd have absolutely no clue what the hell is going on right now or how they go from say, fighting demons in outland, or participating in the horde vs alliance war in pandaria, to how the hell they're in the afterlife fighting alongside these weird space androids against a super lich king.

To now going to fight in dragon world?

FF14's leveling process is something worthy of criticism, but to focus on the story aspect of the leveling is the least problematic part of it. Especially since so much of the foundation of every other expansion's story is built upon what ARR sets up.

[Auxis]

They need to figure out some way to deal with the Crystal Tower MSQ requirement. Yes, its important to the story; maybe do a 4 man duty support version or solo duties with certain NPCs helping?

Good luck to any new players who haven't leveled a tank or healer role. B/c they are probably facing a minimum total 40 mins wait time on a good day to progress the MSQ.

[Grinning Serpent]

Yes, but how much of those are required? Which was my point.

Unlike some of the other games in the genre, which encourage/push players over into that higher level content where a single death results in a group wipe, you could go through nearly all the content in the game and never touch Savage/Extreme. And even then, the 'One person dies, it's a wipe' set up usually only hold true on the cutting edge of the offered fights. Once that stuff is no longer relevant, wipes only tend to happen when someone just flat out doesn't know what to do and usually you've got someone to explain it at that point.

The vast majority of players in FF14 do not raid. They do not do extremes or savages until the content is super outdated. As such, that pressure to preform, to be perfect isn't anywhere near as strong as it would be in WoW, League, or other games where things like Mythic + and Ranked Leagues are much more expected out of the player base. That leads to a less competitive setting overall.

It's hard to get concrete data on this due to achievements being private by default, but Lodestone scraping services generally show full-clear rates for savage tiers in the 20-35% range for western servers, and considerably higher (up into the 40%+ range) for JP servers. Clear rates for first or second floor fights (generally determined by the items being equipped) are considerably higher still. It's really not accurate to claim that a "vast majority" of XIV players do not raid, especially since those raids are what drop the dyeable versions of the raid gear.

A quick look at ffxivcollect shows Barbariccia Ex clear rates at 24%, with Endsinger Ex at 34%, and both Hydaelyn Ex and Zodiark Ex at 45%. I absolutely agree that XIV is a less competitive environment than WoW and is rather obviously less competitive than games whose sole purpose is competition (such as League, DotA, etc), but it's inaccurate to act as though the "vast majority" of players do not participate in difficult content.

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Thank god the entire story is still required.

It's necessary because of the touchstones to other narratives throughout the MSQ, but it's also a serious issue when the entire game is locked down based on MSQ progress. I'm on team "give people a way of skipping ahead", but I can't think of any method of actually doing this other than giving players a glorified story skip and telling them to do the story at their leisure - which is pretty antithetical to how Square-Enix design and operate the game.

"Come play this game, it's fantastic and you only need to grind through 120 hours of story content while playing slow, 2-button gameplay while you gather bear asses to get your next bit of light novel content" is kind of a difficult sell to newbies. I think it would be more palatable if the actual gameplay was more engaging and enjoyable. XIV works well in a raid environment but feels pretty bad out in the open world.

[Arlette]

"Come play this game, it's fantastic and you only need to grind through 120 hours of story content while playing slow, 2-button gameplay while you gather bear asses to get your next bit of light novel content" is kind of a difficult sell to newbies.

Y'all really just can't help but be the absolute most, top tier, exaggerated dramatics about stuff when it comes to this game, can you?

Every time I see one of you talk about ARR the amount of time you claim it takes to get into when it isn't the same as every single other MMO (Low levels is slower gameplay) increases.

[MsSideEye]

They need to figure out some way to deal with the Crystal Tower MSQ requirement. Yes, its important to the story; maybe do a 4 man duty support version or solo duties with certain NPCs helping?

Good luck to any new players who haven't leveled a tank or healer role. B/c they are probably facing a minimum total 40 mins wait time on a good day to progress the MSQ.

To be fair, that's kinda DPS roles in general for just about any kind of content in any MMO.

[Necromantic]

While I don't disagree that now having four expansions worth of story is kinda huge for a new player to get into, I do feel that having it be a main story for the characters to play through is a bit better than Chromie time, if only because going from something like Pandaria to immediately jumping to Shadowlands is a big whiplash. I do like that it's an option, but it also harms any real storytelling that connects back to previous content that would be needed to know information.

I'm sure improvements can be made or some way to do a quick recap once you complete your Chrome Time to get you up to speed... like a TL;DR version of events perhaps.

Ah yes the feature that completely segments the story of a single expansion out of the larger narrative, that FORCES you to just leave and go to future content even if you're in the middle of doing an expansion's story when you hit a certain level, and one that has no cohesion or anything even remotely attempted as a recap to get people to care about what's happening in the most current story.

If an entirely new player tried out WoW, they'd have absolutely no clue what the hell is going on right now or how they go from say, fighting demons in outland, or participating in the horde vs alliance war in pandaria, to how the hell they're in the afterlife fighting alongside these weird space androids against a super lich king.

To now going to fight in dragon world?

FF14's leveling process is something worthy of criticism, but to focus on the story aspect of the leveling is the least problematic part of it. Especially since so much of the foundation of every other expansion's story is built upon what ARR sets up.

Different strokes. I feel the story of FFXIV especially now that we're 4 expansion in is too bloated. I get to a point myself where I start skipping cutscenes because they drag things out too long. WoW didn't do this so much.

There could be a way to bring new players up to speed without having to make them endure so much story content as stated above. FFXIV even offers a MSQ skip so you know someone felt the same.

[Auxis]

To be fair, that's kinda DPS roles in general for just about any kind of content in any MMO.

Yeah, but to be fair how many other MMOs require you to queue for a (admittedly LFR difficulty) raid to progress the main storyline?
GW2 (from my understanding) has solo instances for Personal Story, and WoW has no forced dungeons or raids to progress the main quest line - dungeons are just optional "capstones" to zones quests; and always have been since Vanilla.

Thats my pool to draw from. 2/3 MMOs not locking the rest of the game behind group content (you have to do CT to get into Heavensward content).
Feel free to point out other MMOs that I haven't tread waters in that do this.

[Moralgy]

It's why I say FF14 has a better community in that case, not only because the game itself stylizes itself as a beginners MMO, but also because the amount of 'One person fails, the entire group dies' set up is very, very small in comparison to other games. It goes a long way to help.

?

Every single savage and ultimate is filled to the brim with these.

[Yarathir]

It's hard to get concrete data on this due to achievements being private by default, but Lodestone scraping services generally show full-clear rates for savage tiers in the 20-35% range for western servers, and considerably higher (up into the 40%+ range) for JP servers. Clear rates for first or second floor fights (generally determined by the items being equipped) are considerably higher still. It's really not accurate to claim that a "vast majority" of XIV players do not raid, especially since those raids are what drop the dyeable versions of the raid gear.

A quick look at ffxivcollect shows Barbariccia Ex clear rates at 24%, with Endsinger Ex at 34%, and both Hydaelyn Ex and Zodiark Ex at 45%. I absolutely agree that XIV is a less competitive environment than WoW and is rather obviously less competitive than games whose sole purpose is competition (such as League, DotA, etc), but it's inaccurate to act as though the "vast majority" of players do not participate in difficult content.

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It's necessary because of the touchstones to other narratives throughout the MSQ, but it's also a serious issue when the entire game is locked down based on MSQ progress. I'm on team "give people a way of skipping ahead", but I can't think of any method of actually doing this other than giving players a glorified story skip and telling them to do the story at their leisure - which is pretty antithetical to how Square-Enix design and operate the game.

"Come play this game, it's fantastic and you only need to grind through 120 hours of story content while playing slow, 2-button gameplay while you gather bear asses to get your next bit of light novel content" is kind of a difficult sell to newbies. I think it would be more palatable if the actual gameplay was more engaging and enjoyable. XIV works well in a raid environment but feels pretty bad out in the open world.

It's still a story game at its heart. You can't buy skips for regular RPGs either.

As for gameplay: most of the bitching there comes from people going "wtf i am level 20 and I don't have my full rotation yet? yikes oof ugh i am going back to that other game where I have two whole abilities by level 20 but it's okay if they do it." That said, I do hope they consider some ability redistribution and/or a way to make level cap rotation relevant outside of endgame raids, endgame dungeons and endgame trials. I love the the stuff I have at lvl 90, but there's a 4 in 5 (or higher) chance that I'll be dumped into content under that level unless I run expert and lvl 90 dungeon roulettes. It feels... not so good.

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Yeah, but to be fair how many other MMOs require you to queue for a (admittedly LFR difficulty) raid to progress the main storyline?
GW2 (from my understanding) has solo instances for Personal Story, and WoW has no forced dungeons or raids to progress the main quest line - dungeons are just optional "capstones" to zones quests; and always have been since Vanilla.

Thats my pool to draw from. 2/3 MMOs not locking the rest of the game behind group content (you have to do CT to get into Heavensward content).
Feel free to point out other MMOs that I haven't tread waters in that do this.

I don't think expecting people to participate in a story that becomes highly relevant during the later expansions is such a sin, but I definitely do feel like they could do better with it. At the very least, they should consider overhauling the Crystal Tower series and make the mechanics or at least markers a bit more straightforward. Sure, you can't really fail at Crystal Tower when you're with a bunch of lvl 90s scaled down that have done it thousands of times before, but it still feels shitty to be railroaded through an old Alliance raid where most mechanics feel counterintuitive or poorly conveyed.

[Necromantic]

It's still a story game at its heart. You can't buy skips for regular RPGs either.

As for gameplay: most of the bitching there comes from people going "wtf i am level 20 and I don't have my full rotation yet? yikes oof ugh i am going back to that other game where I have two whole abilities by level 20 but it's okay if they do it." That said, I do hope they consider some ability redistribution and/or a way to make level cap rotation relevant outside of endgame raids, endgame dungeons and endgame trials. I love the the stuff I have at lvl 90, but there's a 4 in 5 (or higher) chance that I'll be dumped into content under that level unless I run expert and lvl 90 dungeon roulettes. It feels... not so good.

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I don't think expecting people to participate in a story that becomes highly relevant during the later expansions is such a sin, but I definitely do feel like they could do better with it. At the very least, they should consider overhauling the Crystal Tower series and make the mechanics or at least markers a bit more straightforward. Sure, you can't really fail at Crystal Tower when you're with a bunch of lvl 90s scaled down that have done it thousands of times before, but it still feels shitty to be railroaded through an old Alliance raid where most mechanics feel counterintuitive.

I always try (when applicable) to persuade people to not give up on FFXIV until at minimum, level 50. By then, they've actually obtained a job stone and experienced enough content to decide if they like how the game plays. Like you, most people I notice who give up do so before they even obtain a job stone and experience very little content. That doesn't give the game a fair chance. I've went back and forth with people who try and rationalize that they've made a "educated" or "good enough" assessment pre-level 30 and any FFXIV veteran will tell you that you simply cannot.

Participating in the story isn't so much the problem but as stated, at this point, anyone diving in has to clear base game and 4 expansions worth of story missions. That's quite a bit and not everyone has the patience to sit and watch a bunch of cutscenes or read a bunch of text. People want to dive into the action. They want to kill stuff.

[Maljinwo]

They need to figure out some way to deal with the Crystal Tower MSQ requirement. Yes, its important to the story; maybe do a 4 man duty support version or solo duties with certain NPCs helping?

Good luck to any new players who haven't leveled a tank or healer role. B/c they are probably facing a minimum total 40 mins wait time on a good day to progress the MSQ.

Crystal Tower is usually the most played raid in roulettes due to high demand
I've never gone more than 20 minutes waiting as a DPS

Personally, I think having a raid as a 'leveling' experience is great.
Sure, it is mostly a braindead experience as most players already know what's going on, but for new players it lets them experience something other than dungeons and trials. Also dying to some mechanics is also good (The always funny Behemoth Meteor, Ancient Flare, Curtain Call, Angra Mainyu) as it shows how you can't rush shit without paying attention at least once during your leveling

[Yarathir]

I always try (when applicable) to persuade people to not give up on FFXIV until at minimum, level 50. By then, they've actually obtained a job stone and experienced enough content to decide if they like how the game plays. Like you, most people I notice who give up do so before they even obtain a job stone and experience very little content. That doesn't give the game a fair chance. I've went back and forth with people who try and rationalize that they've made a "educated" or "good enough" assessment pre-level 30 and any FFXIV veteran will tell you that you simply cannot.

Participating in the story isn't so much the problem but as stated, at this point, anyone diving in has to clear base game and 4 expansions worth of story missions. That's quite a bit and not everyone has the patience to sit and watch a bunch of cutscenes or read a bunch of text. People want to dive into the action. They want to kill stuff.

Personally, if I had the choice, I would say level 60 is the cutoff point. That's where you get a hint of your true rotation for most jobs and where the story starts getting good. That said, there are a myriad of roadblocks in the way.

There are things they can and maybe should change. I still think the stuff before Titan is unnecessary filler and I also still think post-ARR to HW is very, very long and sloggish, but I don't want people to just skip it either. I'd rather it's just streamlined.

At the end of the day, we'll have to agree to disagree on one major point, though: while you and others think it's some sort of negative to be forced to go through all the story up until Endwalker, I think it's a good thing. I would hate it if FF14 had something akin to Chromie time added or they reset the story to where you start after the events of Endwalker. I think the story is something people should experience and if they don't want to, they can always buy a boost, I guess. There's still plenty to do before Endwalker, though, and it's not like WoW where all meaningful stuff is locked directly behind the newest expansion.

[NineSpine]

There may be, I’ve never seen proof they exist but people do like to stir up trouble for no reason so I wouldn’t hold it past anyone.

I don’t believe a typo completely discredits someone. If it did, nobody on the Diablo forum would have any credibility.

There are people in this forum who I have seen post dozens and dozens and dozens of times about all the problems with FF14 and then they turned out to have quit at level 30.