FFXIV Criticisms

[MsSideEye]

I mean, ffxiv does similar things, it has achievements special rewards for doing the hard content via the best weapon looks in the game, mounts, and titles that do push people to do content very similarly to wow. It really seems to be you view ffxiv differently than you view wow, and thats cool, but you are implying your subjective opinion is how it really works in the game. There is no real difference in the two games outside of the community regarding navigating people towards content, which has a large casual fanbase that doesnt care to do the insanely hard stuff no matter how much ffxiv would push for it. On the raid side of ffxiv, there is no real difference than the wow side community wise.

All in all, it really seems like you view ffxiv as more casual and nothing else, because the hardcore aspect is there, and pushed by square enix, just the game has more than only hardcore raiding and gear grinding so it attracts a wider variety of people.

Fuck, the chase to get the ucob title alone did wonders to get me into hardcore raiding far more than wow ever did past like wrath. I would argue, personally, ffxiv does a better job to get people interested in raiding than wow does cause those titles and weapons do be fancy when roaming around social events in ffxiv, and being fancy matters .

Not so much more causal, just less toxic and doesn't have it's competitive aspect shoved into your face like other places do. And because that competitive aspect is more there for people who search it out, vs being omnipresent in the game, it creates less strife and problems in the long run.

And while yes, XIV does have similar things in terms of rewards, there is are stark difference in how they're pushed and what the requirements are. For things like mounts or certain titles, it's just a matter of doing it for long enough in XIV. With Wow, there are some that if you don't get it NOW, when things are current. They're gone. So you got that added pressure of actually go and push those keys, do things right, etc.

I'll definitely say that my opinion on this is likely through some bias since I remember what it was like pugging and dealing with that shit a few years ago where as even in the more competitive nature of XIV's content, I've never felt the same pressure or toxicity.

[Necromantic]

Not so much more causal, just less toxic

Seems this view is a tiny minority everywhere I go.

And while yes, XIV does have similar things in terms of rewards, there is are stark difference in how they're pushed and what the requirements are. For things like mounts or certain titles, it's just a matter of doing it for long enough in XIV. With Wow, there are some that if you don't get it NOW, when things are current. They're gone. So you got that added pressure of actually go and push those keys, do things right, etc.

This part is accurate. I returned to the game at one point and missed out on Grove Warden, which is one of the coolest looking mounts in the game. Now, I can never acquire this. On the flip side, I have two of the top coolest mounts, Invincible and Ashes of Alar so I guess we can't win 'em all.

[Zoibert the Bear]

Seems this view is a tiny minority everywhere I go.

I recommend you look at yourself, then stop and think. Your lack of self awareness is astonishing and I only had to read through the last couple pages of the thread.

[Necromantic]

I recommend you look at yourself, then stop and think. Your lack of self awareness is astonishing and I only had to read through the last couple pages of the thread.

Care to elaborate?

[Aucald]

Seems this view is a tiny minority everywhere I go.

"Toxic" has a different definition depending on the context and the individual. Some individuals feel that FF14's tight control over posting DPS meters, bragging about performance, or sanctioning individuals for pointing out poor performance is itself "toxic." Other people disagree and think it removes toxicity - keeping the player base tightly moderated and focusing on group cohesion and success as opposed to individual performance as the game's primary metric. I'd imagine which view you cleave to is a product of which "side" you find yourself on, really. If your focus is on individual performance as opposed to group cohesion, and you run with similar personalities, you may well find FF14's convention against criticism and/or self-adulation to be stifling. But if you prefer not to have to deal with criticism (either giving or taking it), and don't overly care about individual performance as opposed to group performance, then you'll likely find FF14 a breath of fresh air compared to other MMO atmospheres.

YMMV is basically what it boils down to.

[Necromantic]

"Toxic" has a different definition depending on the context and the individual. Some individuals feel that FF14's tight control over posting DPS meters, bragging about performance, or sanctioning individuals for pointing out poor performance is itself "toxic." Other people disagree and think it removes toxicity - keeping the player base tightly moderated and focusing on group cohesion and success as opposed to individual performance as the game's primary metric. I'd imagine which view you cleave to is a product of which "side" you find yourself on, really. If your focus is on individual performance as opposed to group cohesion, and you run with similar personalities, you may well find FF14's convention against criticism and/or self-adulation to be stifling. But if you prefer not to have to deal with criticism (either giving or taking it), and don't overly care about individual performance as opposed to group performance, then you'll likely find FF14 a breath of fresh air compared to other MMO atmospheres.

YMMV is basically what it boils down to.

Oh believe me, you're preaching to the choir here. I firmly believe that stifling behavior that does not contribute to the growth and development of a person or persons is never toxic. I believe most people are fully knowledgeable of what the word "toxic" means but some deliberately choose to redefine the word to fit their agenda. As I mentioned before, there are people who actually in their minds believe telling someone "git gud" is helpful. The bully who used to pound on the little kid swears he only did it to "help toughen the kid up".

Both games have their fair share of "those guys". I was only stating from my experience and from reading many threads on many forum is where I draw my conclusion. Though from mine and many other's experience, WoW is not the worse of two evils in that regard "overall". Overall meaning from every aspect from in-game, forums, discords, etc.

And yes, YMMV. I'm only commenting on my broad observation and findings.

[Wrecktangle]

Blizzard store is worse for one single reason - The WoW token. You straight up cannot buy in game currency like you can with World of Warcraft. Its insane that anyone can think FFXIV's cash shop is worse than WoW's when the WoW token exists and is the major driving factor behind the issues plaguing the game today (Carry runs, LFG spammed with advertisements, etc)

Did you forget about how PF being overrun with carries/sales in FF14 for years? Or that WoW had carries being offer/discussed long before the token?

There are people in this forum who I have seen post dozens and dozens and dozens of times about all the problems with FF14 and then they turned out to have quit at level 30.

Why is quitting at 30 a disqualifier to providing feedback? FF14's rocky early game is WIDELY documented, discussed, and reviewed critically.

You literally mentioned the one situation where XIV has recolors...

I mean there's also mob palette swaps, armor recolors that took the place of what used to be new armor sets, or base armor sets and dyeable armor sets existing of the same armor.

Reading comprehension, my friend... It really helps. This is legitimately what I said is the only instance where FFXIV has the 'One dies, everyone dies' set up, and it's both not pushed on the players nor is it used as a measuring stick of what you're capable of unless you're already DOING savage/extreme/ultimate. Compared to WoW, where they've got UI elements, special achievements, and even text on the gear that tells everyone just how far along you've gotten in Mythic+.

Not sure if you read this before you posted, but like it's just 100% factually wrong. FF14 has UI elements, special flashy effects, achievements, etc. It's literally identical. Again this is the bias. You can't stick your head in the sand in FF14 and cry foul in WoW in this context.

If you want me to have a better way of saying it, how about this? With the way WoW is designed and set up right now, the expectation is there for you to push yourself into harder content, to be the pushing mythic keys and trying harder and harder to give your best.

The only expectation is one that you place on yourself. The game doesn't force you, or even encourage you to step into it. In fact I would argue, by the game adding so many new ways to get appearances/tier sets from non-raiding it directly contradicts your statement.

Even if you don't have to do it, it feels like you should because the game itself goes 'look, here's this cool thing we made for you to keep track of how high you've gotten in the difficulty slider!'. It makes for a more competitive atmosphere and, in turn, can breed a lot of problems when others aren't trying as hard and impact your own progress.

Ok, but like FF14 has achievements, titles, mounts, armor particle effects, and unique weapon effects for players that do those pieces of content as well.

[Necromantic]

Why is quitting at 30 a disqualifier to providing feedback? FF14's rocky early game is WIDELY documented, discussed, and reviewed critically.

Because pre-30 (some feel 50), you've not experienced enough of the game to make a fair assessment. You've not even obtained a job stone and heck, you've not even got to Brayflox's Longstop which is usually the first dungeon I ever see anyone die. When I go for a test drive in a car, I'll drive it down and around town before deciding if I like it or not. Pulling it out of the parking spot and back in and saying I don't like it is rather unfair.

[NineSpine]

Why is quitting at 30 a disqualifier to providing feedback? FF14's rocky early game is WIDELY documented, discussed, and reviewed critically.

Because we find out they quit at level 30 after they spend dozens of posts complaining about things like encounter design, class design, and difficulty level, none of which are things that are reasonable to criticize at level 30. I've seen people literally compare the encounter design to wow mythic raids and then it turns out they quit before level 50.

[Ghost of Cow]

Because pre-30 (some feel 50), you've not experienced enough of the game to make a fair assessment. You've not even obtained a job stone and heck, you've not even got to Brayflox's Longstop which is usually the first dungeon I ever see anyone die. When I go for a test drive in a car, I'll drive it down and around town before deciding if I like it or not. Pulling it out of the parking spot and back in and saying I don't like it is rather unfair.

Sure, but if someone is test driving that car and can't even stand to sit in it for more than a couple minutes, that's important feedback as well.

Well, not always, some people are just going to operate off bias. But dismissing feedback just because, "You didn't eat the ENTIRE cake!" is foolish as well.

[NineSpine]

Sure, but if someone is test driving that car and can't even stand to sit in it for more than a couple minutes, that's important feedback as well.

Well, not always, some people are just going to operate off bias. But dismissing feedback just because, "You didn't eat the ENTIRE cake!" is foolish as well.

If that person complained about the seat, that would be fine. However, these people are talking about how the car drove on the highway when they never took it there.

[Necromantic]

Sure, but if someone is test driving that car and can't even stand to sit in it for more than a couple minutes, that's important feedback as well.

Well, not always, some people are just going to operate off bias. But dismissing feedback just because, "You didn't eat the ENTIRE cake!" is foolish as well.

You are right, the comfort of the seat is an important bit of feedback, 100%. I wouldn't use that alone to make a determination of the entire car.

Granted, you do not have to play to level cap or raid to get a good enough feel of the game to make a reliable judgement call but when I used to post on the WoW forums, the majority of posts I read where someone said they tried and quit was level 10 or below. My first thought is "Man, you really didn't even do anything". Then I've even seen some of the aforementioned call it a "review". Imagine if you went to Gamespot or IGN to read a review of a game and the reviewer didn't even complete the introduction and gave the game a bad score.

To be fair, there is no documented requirement on how far you need to go but the majority seem to think that 30+ is good enough.

[Grinning Serpent]

[

If that person complained about the seat, that would be fine. However, these people are talking about how the car drove on the highway when they never took it there.

You don't need to drive a car on the highway to know the transmission's sticking between 2nd and 3rd gear, or that the radiator isn't working properly and the car is beginning to show signs of overheating.

XIV's leveling process is garbage. It's boring, slow, and just... not very well designed. ARR also has the unfortunate requirement of laying foundations for all the stories to come, which tends to be rather boring at the outset, since you're just running around doing odd jobs and occasionally getting a bit of story before things start picking up at like level 48. Especially compared to WoW (its only real competitor), the ARR new-player onboarding process is incredibly bad. WoW introduced a completely new starting segment with tutorials woven into the narrative and gameplay with Shadowlands, and it's honestly pretty great. It really shows that it's possible to have a meaningful tutorial segment in an MMO without the game grinding to an immersion-breaking halt.

ARR needs a complete rewrite to fix the severe pacing issues, and the entire game needs to have ability trees restructured such that you spend more time with actual buttons and mechanics to enjoy. The plot of ARR is fine, but the way it's delivered is terrible and really needs a lot of work. Exposition is meant to be woven into the narrative, not vomited on the player at the very end of the third act. I think it's clear they didn't have the best writing chops on hand for ARR, especially compared to later narratives.

The PC is just an average joe adventurer for the first 20-odd levels of the game. It's not until we end up mysteriously immune to Ifrit's tempering that we appear to be anything other than ordinary. Immediately after we defeat Ifrit and are somehow untempered, Minfilia scoops us up and the three Grand Companies and the city-states they represent are throwing themselves at us, because they want that power for their side. This would be the **PERFECT** time to introduce (mandatory) training segments as part of the MSQ. A Grand Company has recruited you, and both the Scions and the GC recognize you as something extraordinary, so why *wouldn't* they dedicate time and effort into training and teaching you? It would be simple as can be:

- You must complete Hall of the Novice before you can unlock Sastasha. Hall of the Novice is updated and teaches you the bare essentials of group combat. Tanks learn about aggro, healers learn about keeping people alive, DPS learn to stop standing in the fire and to attack what the tank is attacking. Every class has its basic AOE spell at this level in my fantasy world, so you're also taught to use your AOE attack when there's at least 2 dudes you can hit with it. Healers are *not* taught about needing to DPS most of the time at this stage; we're assuming it's for "never touched an MMO/game in their life" types, so balancing healing with DPS should be taught after they're comfortable with how dungeons work.

- Immediately after selecting a Grand Company, you are assigned "Adventurer Training" or something, simultaneously with the quest to obtain your chocobo. These quests must both be completed before you can advance the MSQ further. Tanks learn about mitigation skills and using Low Blow and Interrupts, DPS learn some things specific to their sub-role (ranged DPS will be taught about using their interrupt, for example), and healers are taught to use DPS spells when there's no one in need of immediate healing. Gaze mechanics are covered, along with other low level dungeon fundamentals.

- At level 35, you are assigned "Advanced Adventurer Training." You must have completed both the level 30 and level 35 job quests, and you must equip your job stone to access and enter this duty. The GC and Scions are aware you've learned a Job and have begun to progress down that path and want to ensure that you know how best to utilize its powers with your allies. The only new concepts are going to be specific to job/role, and it will otherwise function to introduce you to upcoming mechanics like cleaves (DPS don't stand in front of the boss for this reason), stack markers, etc. Tanks are taught how to position and move bosses around.

- At level 45, you're assigned the equivalent of your final exam. Tanks are taught how to work with a fellow tank (provoke, managing aggro, enabling/disabling stance, etc), handling multiple stack markers at once, towers are introduced, and so on. The aim of this is to prepare players for the upcoming level 50ish content like Crystal Tower and ensure they're prepared for the road ahead.

It makes perfect, narrative sense for the player to be receiving training. You could still do training sessions in later expansions, too - after all, Goku went and trained with several different people throughout his career, and the WoL is basically Goku anyway. There's no damn reason Square-Enix can't do this, other than they have this retarded idea that teaching should come from other players and third-party sites and not the developer, and it would cost them money and time to do it.

But if fucking WoW, managed by one of the absolute worst and most incompetent publisher-developers around, can do it... so can they.

[Necromantic]

XIV's leveling process is garbage. It's boring, slow, and just... not very well designed.

To be fair, have you ever tried the leveling process for it's predecessor, FFXI?

Imagine a hard-casting dot following by auto attacking.

[Grinning Serpent]

To be fair, have you ever tried the leveling process for it's predecessor, FFXI?

Imagine a hard-casting dot following by auto attacking.

I think I played a few hours of 11, and watched a friend do some leveling. It's definitely a different breed of game.

[Yarathir]

I mean there's also mob palette swaps, armor recolors that took the place of what used to be new armor sets, or base armor sets and dyeable armor sets existing of the same armor.

And
As opposed to?

- - - Updated - - -

Because we find out they quit at level 30 after they spend dozens of posts complaining about things like encounter design, class design, and difficulty level, none of which are things that are reasonable to criticize at level 30. I've seen people literally compare the encounter design to wow mythic raids and then it turns out they quit before level 50.

There definitely is a bias. But they won't realize it because there are no new players joining a certain MMO anymore to point out how janky the experience there is.

[Grinning Serpent]

And
As opposed to?

- - - Updated - - -


There definitely is a bias. But they won't realize it because there are no new players joining a certain MMO anymore to point out how janky the experience there is.

I played the Shadowlands prepatch for a bit to try the new tutorial and see the game and I don't recall it being particularly janky.

[NineSpine]

I played the Shadowlands prepatch for a bit to try the new tutorial and see the game and I don't recall it being particularly janky.

I had a couple of friends that tried to start the game with shadowlands. All of them were completely overwhelmed and confused when half an hour into the game they had like 12 abilities each.

- - - Updated - - -

[

You don't need to drive a car on the highway to know the transmission's sticking between 2nd and 3rd gear, or that the radiator isn't working properly and the car is beginning to show signs of overheating.

XIV's leveling process is garbage. It's boring, slow, and just... not very well designed. ARR also has the unfortunate requirement of laying foundations for all the stories to come, which tends to be rather boring at the outset, since you're just running around doing odd jobs and occasionally getting a bit of story before things start picking up at like level 48. Especially compared to WoW (its only real competitor), the ARR new-player onboarding process is incredibly bad. WoW introduced a completely new starting segment with tutorials woven into the narrative and gameplay with Shadowlands, and it's honestly pretty great. It really shows that it's possible to have a meaningful tutorial segment in an MMO without the game grinding to an immersion-breaking halt.

ARR needs a complete rewrite to fix the severe pacing issues, and the entire game needs to have ability trees restructured such that you spend more time with actual buttons and mechanics to enjoy. The plot of ARR is fine, but the way it's delivered is terrible and really needs a lot of work. Exposition is meant to be woven into the narrative, not vomited on the player at the very end of the third act. I think it's clear they didn't have the best writing chops on hand for ARR, especially compared to later narratives.

The PC is just an average joe adventurer for the first 20-odd levels of the game. It's not until we end up mysteriously immune to Ifrit's tempering that we appear to be anything other than ordinary. Immediately after we defeat Ifrit and are somehow untempered, Minfilia scoops us up and the three Grand Companies and the city-states they represent are throwing themselves at us, because they want that power for their side. This would be the **PERFECT** time to introduce (mandatory) training segments as part of the MSQ. A Grand Company has recruited you, and both the Scions and the GC recognize you as something extraordinary, so why *wouldn't* they dedicate time and effort into training and teaching you? It would be simple as can be:

- You must complete Hall of the Novice before you can unlock Sastasha. Hall of the Novice is updated and teaches you the bare essentials of group combat. Tanks learn about aggro, healers learn about keeping people alive, DPS learn to stop standing in the fire and to attack what the tank is attacking. Every class has its basic AOE spell at this level in my fantasy world, so you're also taught to use your AOE attack when there's at least 2 dudes you can hit with it. Healers are *not* taught about needing to DPS most of the time at this stage; we're assuming it's for "never touched an MMO/game in their life" types, so balancing healing with DPS should be taught after they're comfortable with how dungeons work.

- Immediately after selecting a Grand Company, you are assigned "Adventurer Training" or something, simultaneously with the quest to obtain your chocobo. These quests must both be completed before you can advance the MSQ further. Tanks learn about mitigation skills and using Low Blow and Interrupts, DPS learn some things specific to their sub-role (ranged DPS will be taught about using their interrupt, for example), and healers are taught to use DPS spells when there's no one in need of immediate healing. Gaze mechanics are covered, along with other low level dungeon fundamentals.

- At level 35, you are assigned "Advanced Adventurer Training." You must have completed both the level 30 and level 35 job quests, and you must equip your job stone to access and enter this duty. The GC and Scions are aware you've learned a Job and have begun to progress down that path and want to ensure that you know how best to utilize its powers with your allies. The only new concepts are going to be specific to job/role, and it will otherwise function to introduce you to upcoming mechanics like cleaves (DPS don't stand in front of the boss for this reason), stack markers, etc. Tanks are taught how to position and move bosses around.

- At level 45, you're assigned the equivalent of your final exam. Tanks are taught how to work with a fellow tank (provoke, managing aggro, enabling/disabling stance, etc), handling multiple stack markers at once, towers are introduced, and so on. The aim of this is to prepare players for the upcoming level 50ish content like Crystal Tower and ensure they're prepared for the road ahead.

It makes perfect, narrative sense for the player to be receiving training. You could still do training sessions in later expansions, too - after all, Goku went and trained with several different people throughout his career, and the WoL is basically Goku anyway. There's no damn reason Square-Enix can't do this, other than they have this retarded idea that teaching should come from other players and third-party sites and not the developer, and it would cost them money and time to do it.

But if fucking WoW, managed by one of the absolute worst and most incompetent publisher-developers around, can do it... so can they.

ARR needs to be fixed because of pacing issues and all that. I don't disagree there.

But all this training you are talking about is simply unnecessary. The system in place already works fine. The vast majority of random groups go incredibly well.

[Yarathir]

I played the Shadowlands prepatch for a bit to try the new tutorial and see the game and I don't recall it being particularly janky.

Were you a new player?

- - - Updated - - -

I had a couple of friends that tried to start the game with shadowlands. All of them were completely overwhelmed and confused when half an hour into the game they had like 12 abilities each.

- - - Updated - - -



ARR needs to be fixed because of pacing issues and all that. I don't disagree there.

But all this training you are talking about is simply unnecessary. The system in place already works fine. The vast majority of random groups go incredibly well.

If there are parts I'd suggest looking into first, it'd probably be the immediate start. You're overloaded with stuff. Markers, hunt logs, potentially a maze like city, the concept of aetherytes, yadda yadda. Followed by the stretch around 30-40, I think? The quests right before you fight Titan? And then post-ARR. 2.1 to 2.55, I will insist, is particularly heavy. I don't know if there's much they could feasibly do to streamline it, but that's what I would look at.

[Shinchi Migi]

FFXIV's store is undeniably more "predatory", there is probably 10x-20x the amount of things you can buy on it in comparison to WoW in addition to requiring to pay monthly for more retainers for additional space. The WoW token is bad for sure but I don't think that makes it worse with how many cosmetic items is on FFXIV's. Add this in tandem with FFXIV not having an in-game UI or way to track all in-game appearances that you have not collected, people can and will obtain glamour using the store.

This is the worst stab, ever, at FFXIV. Funny..but ridiculous. The only game that is predatory as fuck is WoW. It sure as hell ain't FFXIV. But damn good try. Made me laugh.