FFXIV Criticisms

[Arlette]

Run ACT and check the logs from groups occasionally and tell me that with a straight face. One or two players who give a damn/actually understand what they're doing literally carrying the rest of the group isn't really "going incredibly well."

That training would also ensure that players aren't looking at 12+ buttons and going "err, what?" like in your Shadowlands example. I'm pretty sure I only had like six or seven buttons on my warrior when I was killing stuff in Azshara for goblins, though...

In what universe is this example happening in FF14.

Where are people going, 'Whelp I now have 12 more abilities and don't know what I'm doing?'

The only ones I can think of are the people who skip, which is nearly universally frowned upon and doing so makes that your own problem. In no world are you leveling up fast enough that you're suddenly having 12 new abilities and are confused as to how to play.

You compare much, much later game stuff in FF14, having that many buttons, with leveling up a Goblin in Azshara, at the very beginning of the game.

Come on now lol

It's exactly the kind of wholly disingenuous comparisons like this that people consider you a bad faith actor in this discussion.

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I don't disagree, though I think it's predatory mostly because of what it's done to the in game economy more than anything else, and the fact that it was explicitly done because WoW wanted some of those gold makers money instead of, you know, banning things like gold selling/trading.

Oh yeah I was including all the reasons and ramifications of its inclusion in my statement, but you are right.

Blizzard just wanted part of the honey pot instead of banning it all together.

[MsSideEye]

In what universe is this example happening in FF14.

Where are people going, 'Whelp I now have 12 more abilities and don't know what I'm doing?'

The only ones I can think of are the people who skip, which is nearly universally frowned upon and doing so makes that your own problem. In no world are you leveling up fast enough that you're suddenly having 12 new abilities and are confused as to how to play.

You compare much, much later game stuff in FF14, having that many buttons, with leveling up a Goblin in Azshara, at the very beginning of the game.

Come on now lol

It's exactly the kind of wholly disingenuous comparisons like this that people consider you a bad faith actor in this discussion.

It's actually funny when those twisted are talking about being confused about their abilities, where FF14 slow drip feed of skills is actually what made me use them correctly. But not getting a new skill, proc, or random thing to deal with every couple of levels, I get to learn what my new skill is for a given class, how to best adapt it and see where it would fit in what I'm doing. While I do think the skills could be rearranged a bit so that there's a few more OGCD abilities at lower levels, which would help alleviate the problem of the longer global cooldown in general, the fact that I'm not needing super twitch reflexes and able to learn where I use my spell and when at my own pace goes a long way into making sure I always use it.

[Grinning Serpent]

Thank god mods are still frowned upon in an official capacity. Deliberate griefing/AFKing/auto-attacking is one thing, but I sure am glad I can't get any epeen stroking Samurai in my groups harassing the Bard for not doing max damage in an early Heavensward dungeon.

It's not about damage, it's about actual empirical evidence that they are not playing well. As we've said several times, the majority of players in DF aren't even keeping their GCD rolling. They aren't pressing the wrong buttons, they're not pushing buttons *at all.*

And by the way, this is shifting the goalposts. The original comment said something to the effect that most groups are pretty fantastic. I was simply providing empirical evidence that they are anything but. Just because the game is tuned to be so easy that literally one or two competent players can carry 3-6 garbage players doesn't mean that most groups are "great."

[Arlette]

Just the best when the discussion is, "There are bad players, just trust me. Use addons against the TOS so you can see how bad everyone is!"

Once again...why the hell does it matter in random duty finder content? Are you just quietly seething at your groups because they aren't parsing in their absolute peak places while just mindlessly running Troia for the 60th time? That sounds like a you problem and literally nobody else's and should be rightly dismissed as absurd.

Again it's just complaining to complain that sounds exactly like you had a bad group and got mad about it and decided to make an entire ted talk about being upset about it.

[SoundOfGuns]

In what universe is this example happening in FF14.

Where are people going, 'Whelp I now have 12 more abilities and don't know what I'm doing?'

The only ones I can think of are the people who skip, which is nearly universally frowned upon and doing so makes that your own problem. In no world are you leveling up fast enough that you're suddenly having 12 new abilities and are confused as to how to play.

You compare much, much later game stuff in FF14, having that many buttons, with leveling up a Goblin in Azshara, at the very beginning of the game.

Come on now lol

It's exactly the kind of wholly disingenuous comparisons like this that people consider you a bad faith actor in this discussion.

Im really laughing my butt off at this too. I don't get it... The only explanation i see is, if you boosted... Even the Sage, which starts with an ass full abilities has an entire, played tutorial to go through to know what you need to do and you are set. It seems like a Blizzboy-complaint.

Also i really laugh at the OPs post, because; No. Sylvanas and Denathrius are just... very needlessly dragged out boss fights, and still there is not a single thing nor ability in them, that was not in FF14 in a better way. I remember seeing Denathrius ability Massacre identical in.. i think A Realm Reborn and laughing my ass off, because it took Blizzard so long to have a remotely as energetic bossfight. Its just hilarious.

[Maljinwo]

they're not pushing buttons *at all.*

I've played for three years and I've yet to encounter this

The worst thing i've seen so far was a BLM that only used Blizzard spells

[Gloriandus]

I think the game is fine; I just didn't like the classes/class gameplay. I finished the Endwalker MSQ months ago and haven't logged in since.

[Grinning Serpent]

It's actually funny when those twisted are talking about being confused about their abilities, where FF14 slow drip feed of skills is actually what made me use them correctly. But not getting a new skill, proc, or random thing to deal with every couple of levels, I get to learn what my new skill is for a given class, how to best adapt it and see where it would fit in what I'm doing. While I do think the skills could be rearranged a bit so that there's a few more OGCD abilities at lower levels, which would help alleviate the problem of the longer global cooldown in general, the fact that I'm not needing super twitch reflexes and able to learn where I use my spell and when at my own pace goes a long way into making sure I always use it.

WoW doesn't require "super twitch reflexes" though. Even WildStar didn't, and they were going for a more arcadey design. I guess maybe Destiny does? I've never actually been able to raid in that game.

I dunno, man. I don't think it's really that much to expect people to understand how to handle 8-10 buttons by like level 30ish, especially if you're actually teaching them how to use them. And particularly since probably half those buttons are part of one-way 1-2-3 type combos.

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I've played for three years and I've yet to encounter this

The worst thing i've seen so far was a BLM that only used Blizzard spells

And how often are you running ACT in dungeons and normals?

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I think the game is fine; I just didn't like the classes/class gameplay. I finished the Endwalker MSQ months ago and haven't logged in since.

I think it's the best Final Fantasy game, for sure.

[Arlette]

I've played for three years and I've yet to encounter this

The worst thing i've seen so far was a BLM that only used Blizzard spells

Clearly the problem is that you're not running ACT to seethe about how everybody around you sucks and you're the best and you should be judging them 24/7.

Ignore the fact that this probably is you creating your own sense of displeasure by forcing yourself to hate everybody.

JUDGE PEOPLE MORE. DO IT. JUDGE THEM.

~~~

"Gosh I just know that people in FF14 are just quietly judging everybody in private because they can't say it in public or else they'd get punished. This game is so toxic!" Maybe the people making this claim are, by and large, the ones doing it themselves?

Meanwhile the rest of us are just playing the game.

[Grinning Serpent]

If the content gets completed without wipes, it does go well. Being bitter and resentful that someone else isn't doing as much damage as you isn't the same as a run going poorly.

You're putting words in my mouth. You said that the run was going "incredibly well." I'm providing you empirical proof that it isn't. I'm also not saying that that's the run going poorly - you cleared, after all, right?

I'm simply saying that it's disingenuous to describe "one player carried three others to rewards they didn't earn" as "went incredibly well."

[Necromantic]

You're putting words in my mouth. You said that the run was going "incredibly well." I'm providing you empirical proof that it isn't. I'm also not saying that that's the run going poorly - you cleared, after all, right?

I'm simply saying that it's disingenuous to describe "one player carried three others to rewards they didn't earn" as "went incredibly well."

I can see it from both sides. "Doing well" is obviously relevant. People used to being quick and efficient are obviously not going to see a slow run or authentic** carry as "doing well". Part of my job involves dealing with efficiency and if a guy takes 1 hour to do a 20 minute job, he's not "doing well" even if he tries to rationalize with "The job got done and nobody got hurt".

On the flip side, most people who play any given game are not very good at it. There are far more bad players in any game than there are good players. Some people just have a comfort zone and if the group lets that happen, that's their choice. If the group collectively decides to boot that player for performance, they have the right to do so. This is common in most games.


**Authentic carry meaning truly doing so. Most of the time when someone claims they're carrying someone, they're really not. They barely edge ahead of people in the group on a meter and just want any reason to stroke their own ego.

[NineSpine]

You're putting words in my mouth. You said that the run was going "incredibly well." I'm providing you empirical proof that it isn't. I'm also not saying that that's the run going poorly - you cleared, after all, right?

I'm simply saying that it's disingenuous to describe "one player carried three others to rewards they didn't earn" as "went incredibly well."

When the norm is that groups are regularly wiping over and over and over again because of people not pulling their weight, let me know. Until then, this is just obnoxious bitterness and resentment.

[Yarathir]

It's not about damage, it's about actual empirical evidence that they are not playing well. As we've said several times, the majority of players in DF aren't even keeping their GCD rolling. They aren't pressing the wrong buttons, they're not pushing buttons *at all.*

And by the way, this is shifting the goalposts. The original comment said something to the effect that most groups are pretty fantastic. I was simply providing empirical evidence that they are anything but. Just because the game is tuned to be so easy that literally one or two competent players can carry 3-6 garbage players doesn't mean that most groups are "great."

How am I shifting any goalpost when I'm making a generalized comment about mods as a result of people talking about ACT and its impact? Goofy.

[Ghost of Cow]

WoW doesn't require "super twitch reflexes" though. Even WildStar didn't, and they were going for a more arcadey design. I guess maybe Destiny does? I've never actually been able to raid in that game.

I dunno, man. I don't think it's really that much to expect people to understand how to handle 8-10 buttons by like level 30ish, especially if you're actually teaching them how to use them. And particularly since probably half those buttons are part of one-way 1-2-3 type combos.

It's just weird to me when people are like, "omg WoW is so bad and unfriendly and overwhelming, there's twelve buttons!!" when talking about a comparison to XIV where button bloat has been a topic of conversation for a while.

Doubly funny because in previous discussions on the topic people have claimed that WoW is actually too simple and dumbed down and is just two buttons while XIV is big brain and complex.

Almost like there's not actually this massive divide between the two games, but people will create one just to bash one or the other.

[Arlette]

It's just weird to me when people are like, "omg WoW is so bad and unfriendly and overwhelming, there's twelve buttons!!" when talking about a comparison to XIV where button bloat has been a topic of conversation for a while.

Nice job just totally and completely avoiding the counter argument that there is, at no point, the concept that you're suddenly dealing with more than one new ability or passive at the time while you ridiculously complain about "button bloat" despite the game going out of its way in every single job about its special abilities multiple quests in a row.

EVERY SINGLE JOB has multiple questlines teaching you about your job specific abilities.

This absolutely ridiculous claim by 'completely and totally unbiased' actors about "button bloat" in FFXIV is fucking laughable.

Button bloat has been a conversation at max level, as you and literally every other person who has played the game has identified, but not by random lowbies who haven't even finished ARR, let alone HW or SB, where neither is the case regardless.

You guys are so embarrassingly disingenuous with your claims every single time.

[Necromantic]

While I get Grinning Serpent's point and it really does suck when you're putting forth your best and it seems everyone around you is doing things half-ass. It's frustrating and makes you feel like there is no incentive for you to do YOUR best if you're rewarded the same as the guy doing things half-ass. This is how some union workers feel when they work their butt off but Joe Blow whos on his phone half the day or going to the bathroom excessively gets the same pay and raise he does.

On the flip side, yes, meters of any kind are used mostly to brag/shame people. My first response to anyone who has ever used a meter to shame me was "I'm sorry I do not live up to your personal standards". When you're naturally very good at video games, you have to realize that most people you play with at random are not going to be. I consider myself good at games but not amazing, especially at FFXIV. I do try my best and I have been shamed by people who clearly raid in higher tier content. Not every single time, but most of the times when I've seen people come into random DF and berate people were players who had glowing weapons.

[Yarathir]

The only time a job is temporarily intimidating to me for all the buttons you get tossed at you is when I start a later expac job. Like Gunbreaker or Sage. Suddenly.. BUTTONS! Otherwise? Nah. It's strange to see people complain about the slow pace of acquiring new abilities and buttons and then also complain that you get buttons too quickly without proper explanation. Like???????????????????????

But yes, I do think XIV is more complex and has more meaningful rotations. At least for DPS. And I like it that way. I don't think it's bloated, and as a Dragoon main, I will hiss at anyone who brings up the b-word.

[Ghost of Cow]

Nice job just totally and completely avoiding the counter argument that there is, at no point, the concept that you're suddenly dealing with more than one new ability or passive at the time while you ridiculously complain about "button bloat" despite the game going out of its way in every single job about its special abilities multiple quests in a row.

This absolutely ridiculous claim by 'completely and totally unbiased' actors about "button bloat" in FFXIV is fucking laughable.

Button bloat has been a conversation at max level, as you and literally every other person who has played the game has identified. Not random lowbies who haven't even finished ARR, let alone HW or SB, where neither is the case regardless.

You guys are so embarrassingly disingenuous with your claims every single time.

Oh go scream at some windmills. You're so completely dishonest about this entire discussion, all you want to do is rant about how one game is bad and the other is the bestest. It's immature nonsense.

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The only time a job is temporarily intimidating to me for all the buttons you get tossed at you is when I start a later expac job. Like Gunbreaker or Sage. Suddenly.. BUTTONS! Otherwise? Nah. It's strange to see people complain about the slow pace of acquiring new abilities and buttons and then also complain that you get buttons too quickly without proper explanation. Like???????????????????????

I figure it's just hard for a game to strike the right balance to please everyone on that front. I don't think any one system will please everyone.

[Arlette]

Oh go scream at some windmills. You're so completely dishonest about this entire discussion, all you want to do is rant about how one game is bad and the other is the bestest. It's immature nonsense.

Fuckin roflmao.

You are literally whining about button bloat in a game that, from levels 1 through 60, are teaching you how to use their abilities, to a game where there isn't even an attempt to explain how to play your spec.

Give me a break with your laughable claims about tilting at windmills.

You are so dishonest that you might as well just be Taliesin.

Its embarrassing how much you're giving leeway to one game over another despite not even being a paid actor for WoW. Goddamn.

[Yarathir]

I figure it's just hard for a game to strike the right balance to please everyone on that front. I don't think any one system will please everyone.

My biggest issue is honestly how little opportunity I get to enjoy my level cap rotation. Otherwise, I'm fine*.


*with the jobs I have currently played. Which isn't all of them.