FFXIV Criticisms

[Wrecktangle]

Yeah, you look at the top post and the guy is literally analyzing the logs of the MCH in this 4-man run. Not only analyzing it, but feeling the need to post said analysis publicly.

Some people are just extremely concerned with the person next to them.

He didn't post any publicly identifying data though unless I am mistaken? To be fair people argued time and time again with me that these people don't "exist" in their runs, but they do, they just don't care or run the addons required to actually see it. Sure this MCH isn't going to stop your dungeon from getting cleared, but the question always comes down to, if all 4 players played identically to this, would you clear/have a good time. I know I wouldn't. I don't enjoy 50 minute trivial dungeon content that should only take 15 minutes.

I'm not concerned with people next to me so much as I would appreciate people putting in effort (that MCH did not put in effort) so my time doesn't feel wasted, especially with how little I get to play these days.

[Dakhath]

I'm not concerned with people next to me so much as I would appreciate people putting in effort (that MCH did not put in effort) so my time doesn't feel wasted, especially with how little I get to play these days.

That's ultimately it for me. There is a world of difference between a bad player trying and a whatever playing doing whatever.

[Katchii]

That's ultimately it for me. There is a world of difference between a bad player trying and a whatever playing doing whatever.

Same, a new or bad player that's doing their best and is willing to improve is a completely different thing than a player who is willfully ignorant and/ or purposely putting in no effort and expecting to be carried.

That said, I've seen people try and "help" those new or bad players and their brand of help is, to put it lightly, not helpful. I'd rather deal with a dungeon run with a bad player than have to listen to one of "those" players try and help them.

[Ghost of Cow]

Stuff like this is really annoying, too: https://www.reddit.com/r/TalesFromDF...ower_dungeons/

Like...the tank wasn't a jerk about it, and they're just being honest about what they're comfortable with. Take a break from your own self-importance for one minute, jeez.

As an aside, as much as I like tanking, I really do get tired of the community. Literally everything is the tanks fault, and everything you do or don't do is supposedly a reportable offense. But the DPS that runs ahead, pulls a pack, then drags the pack off to Narnia instead of bringing it to the murderball is just playing the game normally and it's still your fault if they're unhappy with the outcome.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

PUGing and queuing through LFG/duty finder is always going to produce a toxic experience no matter the game, be it WoW or League of Legends or FF14. It is unnatural for a group of stranger to come together to accomplish a technically difficult task. People don't know or care about each other. They're just cogs that can be replaced, cogs that are holding you back from getting your reward. It's a mercenary mentality. That's the failure of these lobby MMOs where you can have a group assembled for you and teleport into the instance. They don't facilitate natural social interaction and bonding over time and the formation of guilds like in oldschool MMOs.

People are usually interacting through chat. The internet has also abstracted communication from reality. People would never say the things they say on twitter or 4chan or a forum post or through ingame chat to a person standing right in front of them in real life, because if they did they would be punched in the face.

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Literally everything is the tanks fault

This is also a problem with MMOs built around the holy trinity. It used to be that bosses weren't ultra mechanically heavy like today. They'd have maybe 1 or 2 mechanics, if any at all. The gameplay wasn't about the boss mechanics, but about the party's comp and strategy. Ie, someone CCing the mobs, another person pulling, tank is tanking, someone cleansing DoTs, etc. With a holy trinity, there is only really two roles: tank and healer. DPS don't have a role since everyone deals damage. DPS just do more damage. That isn't a role. A game where DPS just do DPS isn't very fun. So boss fights had more and more mechanics added to them to give DPS players more gameplay, more things they have to do, be it avoiding standing in fire or disarming traps and so on. Meanwhile, the tank gets even more stuff he has to deal with on top of the already technically difficult role of trying to grab and hold aggro and not die and trying to prevent his healer from running out of mana.

[Ghost of Cow]

This is also a problem with MMOs built around the holy trinity. It used to be that bosses weren't ultra mechanically heavy like today. They'd have maybe 1 or 2 mechanics, if any at all. The gameplay wasn't about the boss mechanics, but about the party's comp and strategy. Ie, someone CCing the mobs, another person pulling, tank is tanking, someone cleansing DoTs, etc. With a holy trinity, there is only really two roles: tank and healer. DPS don't have a role since everyone deals damage. DPS just do more damage. That isn't a role. A game where DPS just do DPS isn't very fun. So boss fights had more and more mechanics added to them to give DPS players more gameplay, more things they have to do, be it avoiding standing in fire or disarming traps and so on. Meanwhile, the tank gets even more stuff he has to deal with on top of the already technically difficult role of trying to grab and hold aggro and not die and trying to prevent his healer from running out of mana.

Well, it's just annoying because most people you talk to will blame most things on the tank while also saying that the tank isn't needed, doesn't set any pace, isn't the leader, etc.

Yet if you pull too slow, you're the devil. If a DPS gets themselves killed you're reported for "lethargic play". If you tell the DPS not to get themselves killed like that again you're an insecure YPYT heathen.

It's like...ok, fine, DPS can do literally anything but if I step out of line in their opinion it's straight to the gaol I guess.

[Grinning Serpent]

This is also a problem with MMOs built around the holy trinity. It used to be that bosses weren't ultra mechanically heavy like today. They'd have maybe 1 or 2 mechanics, if any at all. The gameplay wasn't about the boss mechanics, but about the party's comp and strategy. Ie, someone CCing the mobs, another person pulling, tank is tanking, someone cleansing DoTs, etc. With a holy trinity, there is only really two roles: tank and healer. DPS don't have a role since everyone deals damage. DPS just do more damage. That isn't a role. A game where DPS just do DPS isn't very fun. So boss fights had more and more mechanics added to them to give DPS players more gameplay, more things they have to do, be it avoiding standing in fire or disarming traps and so on. Meanwhile, the tank gets even more stuff he has to deal with on top of the already technically difficult role of trying to grab and hold aggro and not die and trying to prevent his healer from running out of mana.

That applies in, like, classic WoW or something but it certainly doesn't apply in FF14. Tanking is *BY FAR* the easiest role in the game, in any battle content, whether it's dungeons or ultimates. Aggro is completely free, the rigid nature of FF14 combat design means mitigation is literally just "push button when see cast bar", they have largely removed tanks needing to position bosses in favor of the bosses repeatedly resetting to center field (and inflating boss hitboxes so that precious baby melee DPS don't get their feelings hurt by having to take a 5 sec downtime to avoid dying), and adds aren't really a thing in FF14 for a variety of reasons. On top of that, tanks have rotations that are quite literally half of a melee's rotation at most.

Tank is the place you slot your weakest players into. It has the lowest impact and lowest demands for fight knowledge and player skill of any role.

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Well, it's just annoying because most people you talk to will blame most things on the tank while also saying that the tank isn't needed, doesn't set any pace, isn't the leader, etc.

Yet if you pull too slow, you're the devil. If a DPS gets themselves killed you're reported for "lethargic play". If you tell the DPS not to get themselves killed like that again you're an insecure YPYT heathen.

It's like...ok, fine, DPS can do literally anything but if I step out of line in their opinion it's straight to the gaol I guess.

Tanking is so brainless there's literally no reason to not just W2W every dungeon. Unless your healer is completely incompetent, it's fine. If they're incompetent, cool you wipe, pull 2 packs instead of 3 for the rest of the dungeon. I've had plenty of wipes in dungeons, I have literally never seen anyone start malding over wiping in a *dungeon.* If people say anything at all, it's usually them trying to apologize for screwing up (even if they weren't why there was a wipe) or cracking a joke. Or it might be a simple explanation of what to do if it was a binary failure wipe (SoS and the fact that everyone has to pass the button mashing check is a good example.)

If DPS or the healer are pulling for you, you need to pick up the pace. It's a dungeon, not an ultimate. You'll be fine.

[Ghost of Cow]

Tanking is so brainless there's literally no reason to not just W2W every dungeon. Unless your healer is completely incompetent, it's fine. If they're incompetent, cool you wipe, pull 2 packs instead of 3 for the rest of the dungeon. I've had plenty of wipes in dungeons, I have literally never seen anyone start malding over wiping in a *dungeon.* If people say anything at all, it's usually them trying to apologize for screwing up (even if they weren't why there was a wipe) or cracking a joke. Or it might be a simple explanation of what to do if it was a binary failure wipe (SoS and the fact that everyone has to pass the button mashing check is a good example.)

If DPS or the healer are pulling for you, you need to pick up the pace. It's a dungeon, not an ultimate. You'll be fine.

It's not about difficulty or anything else, just the attitude that people have toward it. Which is especially annoying when hearing people talk to new players about it. Maybe it's just my server, I dunno, but I hear this stuff constantly.

"Tanks are useless, we don't even need them to do a run, everything they do is reportable so call them out all the time, DPS run ahead if you can and pull, if you die report the tank for lethargic play, healers just rescue them wherever you want, if they whine report them for verbal harassment, who cares if they leave just report them for that too and finish without them."

[Wrecktangle]

PUGing and queuing through LFG/duty finder is always going to produce a toxic experience no matter the game, be it WoW or League of Legends or FF14. It is unnatural for a group of stranger to come together to accomplish a technically difficult task. People don't know or care about each other. They're just cogs that can be replaced, cogs that are holding you back from getting your reward. It's a mercenary mentality. That's the failure of these lobby MMOs where you can have a group assembled for you and teleport into the instance. They don't facilitate natural social interaction and bonding over time and the formation of guilds like in oldschool MMOs.

I had a fairly wholesome WoW experience yesterday pugging normal raid. The sword and tier dropped and the other Ret in the group won both. He was only 2 ilvl behind me, but nearly 15k DPS behind, and whispered me and asked me if I could help him do more DPS if he gave me the items. I offered to help without the items, and he gave them to me anyway, wouldn't take no for an answer.

Unlike most people I don't have many negative experience in WoW, but I also don't have nice ones frequently either so this was a treat.

[Grinning Serpent]

It's not about difficulty or anything else, just the attitude that people have toward it. Which is especially annoying when hearing people talk to new players about it. Maybe it's just my server, I dunno, but I hear this stuff constantly.

"Tanks are useless, we don't even need them to do a run, everything they do is reportable so call them out all the time, DPS run ahead if you can and pull, if you die report the tank for lethargic play, healers just rescue them wherever you want, if they whine report them for verbal harassment, who cares if they leave just report them for that too and finish without them."

I don't think I've heard any of that outside of satire or TFDF. Strictly speaking, it's really more that healers aren't necessary. The meta in ShB was tank+3 DPS and it's even moreso in EW with how they gave every tank Warrior's self-healing gimmick. Healer+3 DPS can't really W2W because while DPS can tank mobs just fine, they can't tank three pulls' worth of mobs just fine - the healer would have to basically healbot rather than DPS, so the group's DPS is lowered substantially. Meanwhile with 3 DPS, a tank can W2W and the mobs should be dying before the tank runs out of defensives.

[Pannonian]

I don't think I've heard any of that outside of satire or TFDF. Strictly speaking, it's really more that healers aren't necessary. The meta in ShB was tank+3 DPS and it's even moreso in EW with how they gave every tank Warrior's self-healing gimmick. Healer+3 DPS can't really W2W because while DPS can tank mobs just fine, they can't tank three pulls' worth of mobs just fine - the healer would have to basically healbot rather than DPS, so the group's DPS is lowered substantially. Meanwhile with 3 DPS, a tank can W2W and the mobs should be dying before the tank runs out of defensives.

In current experts there are at max. 2 packs and a dps can tank that while heal can do damage, given the "correct" healer.

Though i'll agree best way to clear is tank + 3dps

And to be honest, i had that problem yesterday: Heavens Legends Tanks turns of tank stance as i pull ahead. Why do i do it? To break my own shield to get more dps. This is how the class works. If the tanks ego cannot handle it... well, not my problem, i can keep 2 dps tanking alive while doing damage.

[Zoibert the Bear]

That applies in, like, classic WoW or something but it certainly doesn't apply in FF14. Tanking is *BY FAR* the easiest role in the game, in any battle content, whether it's dungeons or ultimates.

Have you ever tanked an ultimate? And dont say UWU please.

[Ghost of Cow]

I don't think I've heard any of that outside of satire or TFDF. Strictly speaking, it's really more that healers aren't necessary. The meta in ShB was tank+3 DPS and it's even moreso in EW with how they gave every tank Warrior's self-healing gimmick. Healer+3 DPS can't really W2W because while DPS can tank mobs just fine, they can't tank three pulls' worth of mobs just fine - the healer would have to basically healbot rather than DPS, so the group's DPS is lowered substantially. Meanwhile with 3 DPS, a tank can W2W and the mobs should be dying before the tank runs out of defensives.

I dunno. Like I said maybe it's my server, but I hear that stuff endlessly in NovNet and Discord. Not just a couple specific people, either, it's like "tar and feather the tanks" is some kind of global attitude there.

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And to be honest, i had that problem yesterday: Heavens Legends Tanks turns of tank stance as i pull ahead. Why do i do it? To break my own shield to get more dps. This is how the class works. If the tanks ego cannot handle it... well, not my problem, i can keep 2 dps tanking alive while doing damage.

I'm assuming Sage, but yeah...I can't see that that being a meaningful DPS optimization, since it doesn't matter whose shield breaks and it's not like having one more Toxikon is breaking DPS records compared to just spamming Dyskrasia on packs anyway.

That feels like more of a, "Just because I want to, deal with it." not a "It's a big optimization!" situation.

[Pannonian]

I dunno. Like I said maybe it's my server, but I hear that stuff endlessly in NovNet and Discord. Not just a couple specific people, either, it's like "tar and feather the tanks" is some kind of global attitude there.

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I'm assuming Sage, but yeah...I can't see that that being a meaningful DPS optimization, since it doesn't matter whose shield breaks and it's not like having one more Toxikon is breaking DPS records compared to just spamming Dyskrasia on packs anyway.

That feels like more of a, "Just because I want to, deal with it." not a "It's a big optimization!" situation.

The question is: why should i play suboptimal? Even in dungeons i try to maximize what i can do because that's what i like about the game, that's fun for me. And 3 x Toxkion is more damage than Dykrasia - DPS is the most important mitigation tool, especially as many packs nowadays tend to have one beefy add (e.g.: the portals in Azdaals Legacy). And its not about the damage alone, if we take Kardia/Soteria into account. If i would sabotage the team with it, i can can see your point, but in a game where threat management is non existent, it just does not matter who pulls, because the first AE of the tank will always grab aggro, and even if not, i can heal it (which is also why i don't do it as dps, because this would require the tank to cooperate, as heal it just isn't necessary). So, let me re-iterate: Why shouldn't i do it?

I think TFDF is too extreme, and likes to circle jerk their own superiority, but i had my fair share of "leader" tanks already, they're obnoxious, and i agree that "YPYT" is a toxic mentality, and the game would be better if it died. It would also take pressure from the tanks!

If they are new and want to go slow, no problem, I'd never rush a sprout. But if you go into EXPERT (max level) dungeon with your mentor crown and your triple legend title, yeah i expect you to use sprint, and if not, well, at least to not whine about the heal bringing the mobs to you. (not the specific "i answer to Ghost of Cow"- you, the general you)

[Grinning Serpent]

Have you ever tanked an ultimate? And dont say UWU please.

Nope. Don't need to. You can just watch POV clears from tanks.

Compared to literally everyone else on the team, the tanks have the easiest job. They have a much less complicated rotation than a DPS does and they don't have the demands on them to minimize healing done to maximize DPS uptime that healers have to do.

Funny thing is, only the people who have their ego wrapped up in tanking ever actually disagree with this. Most people agree, tank is where you place your weakest players, because they have the easiest job.

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I dunno. Like I said maybe it's my server, but I hear that stuff endlessly in NovNet and Discord. Not just a couple specific people, either, it's like "tar and feather the tanks" is some kind of global attitude there.

I don't really care what people say in chats or on social media. They're always going to be leaving out context, embellishing, or just straight up lying.

I've literally never seen "anti tank" attitudes *in-game.* Ever.

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I think TFDF is too extreme, and likes to circle jerk their own superiority, but i had my fair share of "leader" tanks already, they're obnoxious, and i agree that "YPYT" is a toxic mentality, and the game would be better if it died. It would also take pressure from the tanks!

I *have* encountered YPYT in-game a few times. Not very often. But a few times. I just ignored them and kept pulling from them. Probably helped that I was the healer. If the fucking healer is pulling for you, that's a pretty clear indication that you can speed up and not have to worry about overloading the healer.

I've found that engaging with these sorts of negative/toxic people is never, ever worth the effort. I just use Visibility to mute them immediately and continue on my day. I'm not going to stop pulling for the tank if they are not a sprout and I damn well know I can heal through whatever damage they will be taking. I'll pull a new pack as the previous one is dying for sprout tanks. If they say something, I just tell them that I'll keep them alive and they can keep going - usually works just fine. I find that sprout tanks are more often concerned about dying/putting too much work on the healer than they are about holding aggro or whatever else.

[Zoibert the Bear]

Nope. Don't need to. You can just watch POV clears from tanks..

Edit:

clown

[Moralgy]

Nope. Don't need to. You can just watch POV clears from tanks.

Compared to literally everyone else on the team, the tanks have the easiest job. They have a much less complicated rotation than a DPS does and they don't have the demands on them to minimize healing done to maximize DPS uptime that healers have to do.

Funny thing is, only the people who have their ego wrapped up in tanking ever actually disagree with this. Most people agree, tank is where you place your weakest players, because they have the easiest job.

Off patch I would agree with you sorta, on patch, tanks being a weak player means you never clear an ult. Even then, its really only after stats become maxed via the ult becoming very outdated that I would agree. Phys ranged is the easiest job when dps checks are not important though, by a long shot even.

The number of "i timed my mit wrong" wipes I had in dsr and top while progging was pretty high, and its not because they were weak players, its because of the weird ass timing you have to do for popping mits to make them be up at the right time to catch busters and autos with it. After a few patches that doesnt matter anymore really, but on patch, it is very important.

Savage outside of week 1 prog though tanking is kinda braindead tbqh.

[Grinning Serpent]

Off patch I would agree with you sorta, on patch, tanks being a weak player means you never clear an ult. Even then, its really only after stats become maxed via the ult becoming very outdated that I would agree. Phys ranged is the easiest job when dps checks are not important though, by a long shot even.

The number of "i timed my mit wrong" wipes I had in dsr and top while progging was pretty high, and its not because they were weak players, its because of the weird ass timing you have to do for popping mits to make them be up at the right time to catch busters and autos with it. After a few patches that doesnt matter anymore really, but on patch, it is very important.

Savage outside of week 1 prog though tanking is kinda braindead tbqh.

I mean, yeah I guess you can claim DPS (pranged being the easiest of DPS) is the easiest role when there are no enrage timers or other meaningful DPS checks. But I generally don't really factor casual content in when I'm making assessments since casual content is quite literally designed such that one or two competent players can carry the rest of the party being dead weight (depends on the type of content.) But for "meaningful" content, I think it's hard to believe that anything but tank is the easiest, in EW at least. I think in ShB it was more even between pranged and tanks, since tanks *did* need to position the boss and do some other things in those encounters, particularly in regards to maximizing melee uptime/positionals.

I think the removal of that (coupled with the removal of positionals being important for melee DPS outside of like week 1 prog) was one of the biggest mistakes made between ShB and EW. I'm assuming that they were operating under the idea that the new tank mits and their sensitivity to timing would account for that loss, but... not really? When tankbusters have a cast bar (instead of being "every third autoswing" or something) and all mitigation abilities are oGCD, I don't see how it's even possible to fail to execute your mitigation at the right time. I suppose triple weaving will result in clipping, but an occasional instance of that is such a trivial DPS fluctuation that it's not really worth lingering on. And if DRK/GNB having to occasionally triple weave was such a DPS loss, you'd just switch to unga bunga or PLD, neither of whom have weaving issues.

What made it hard to time mits in DSR and TOP? I never noticed my group's tanks struggling with that during their prog. Was it more of trying to plan out your mits, not so much as timing them properly? You could probably pop the mit in the last 0.5 or 0.25 sec of the castbar to snapshot the tankbuster and still have duration left for following autoswings. That's always what I've done.


I know better than to assume we'll get more involved or engaging DPS cycles (I'd love for something like WoW Warrior's Shield Slam with refresh procs, or Arms/Fury's Sudden Death procs), but I at least hope they make fight design in 7.0 a little more inspired. Or at least, don't save up all of your neat ideas for ultimates, because I feel like ultimates are such an extreme demand on player time and energy compared to savages (which, even if you can't get into a week 1-2 group, you can still at least prog in PF via Discord groups etc) that it's a little unfair for the majority of players. You wouldn't think it matters so much, but by automating boss positioning they really did remove a lot of the room for optimization and creativity from tanks and their raid groups. I *loved* learning uptime strats or coming up with our own demented ways to simplify certain things in ShB. It felt awesome when your group finally mastered an uptime strat and you got to see proof of the success by the boss dying significantly faster than before.

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Off patch I would agree with you sorta, on patch, tanks being a weak player means you never clear an ult. Even then, its really only after stats become maxed via the ult becoming very outdated that I would agree. Phys ranged is the easiest job when dps checks are not important though, by a long shot even.

The number of "i timed my mit wrong" wipes I had in dsr and top while progging was pretty high, and its not because they were weak players, its because of the weird ass timing you have to do for popping mits to make them be up at the right time to catch busters and autos with it. After a few patches that doesnt matter anymore really, but on patch, it is very important.

Savage outside of week 1 prog though tanking is kinda braindead tbqh.

I mean, yeah I guess you can claim DPS (pranged being the easiest of DPS) is the easiest role when there are no enrage timers or other meaningful DPS checks. But I generally don't really factor casual content in when I'm making assessments since casual content is quite literally designed such that one or two competent players can carry the rest of the party being dead weight (depends on the type of content.) But for "meaningful" content, I think it's hard to believe that anything but tank is the easiest, in EW at least. I think in ShB it was more even between pranged and tanks, since tanks *did* need to position the boss and do some other things in those encounters, particularly in regards to maximizing melee uptime/positionals.

I think the removal of that (coupled with the removal of positionals being important for melee DPS outside of like week 1 prog) was one of the biggest mistakes made between ShB and EW. I'm assuming that they were operating under the idea that the new tank mits and their sensitivity to timing would account for that loss, but... not really? When tankbusters have a cast bar (instead of being "every third autoswing" or something) and all mitigation abilities are oGCD, I don't see how it's even possible to fail to execute your mitigation at the right time. I suppose triple weaving will result in clipping, but an occasional instance of that is such a trivial DPS fluctuation that it's not really worth lingering on. And if DRK/GNB having to occasionally triple weave was such a DPS loss, you'd just switch to unga bunga or PLD, neither of whom have weaving issues.

What made it hard to time mits in DSR and TOP? I never noticed my group's tanks struggling with that during their prog. Was it more of trying to plan out your mits, not so much as timing them properly? You could probably pop the mit in the last 0.5 or 0.25 sec of the castbar to snapshot the tankbuster and still have duration left for following autoswings. That's always what I've done.

[EmperorofMankind]

I mean it has tons and tons of filler quests that basically destroy the feel of the story, most of quests are not voiced (it is 2023 and still most of the stuff is not voiced despite the fact the game is produced by AAA studio), you are forced to play through one expansion to the next (in wow you can access the newest expansion immediately, after reaching a correct level), every class has only one spec and etc.
I could go on and on, so my question stands what is so great about this mmo that people force themselves through the grind that is main story quest aka msq.
I lost count how many time i spent clicking on mouse to go through the long *** conversation during msq,
So i would be thankful for the info,
Cheers

[Mysterymask]

Because they do and their taste isn't yours?

I mean my brothers favorite game is one where you legitimately drive a bus around. Half the people on the forum don't share my taste and half the people I work with think anything that isn't CoD or Madden isn't worth playing