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  1. #1341
    If some were to be believed, XIV servers would be a complete ghost town.

    I've never experienced that, thoughever.

  2. #1342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm with you on how much it sucks that their old code is shitty, but it's working right now and I understand why they're choosing not to focus on fixing it. It makes complete business sense.
    I agree. But that's also why I don't give a fuck how nice Yoshida is on screen, and why I think the hero worship people have for him is akin to a cargo cult at this point. FFXIV is a business, not a game or work of art or whatever. The decisions made, in regards to development paths and such, are made from a "will it make us more money?" standpoint, *not* a "will it make this a better product/experience?" standpoint. They often coincide (because to an extent, better products sell better), but when they conflict, they invariably fall on the side of "we want more money."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    First, Do you know how much work goes into the whole 'throw the fucker out and rebuild it from scratch'? We're talking three to five years to do something on FFXIV's scale. MINIMUM. That's not even considering the fact that it's going to be insanely difficult to port characters, items, progress, OR anything else that uses the old coding to the new coding, which means that everyone loses out on YEARS worth of progress and work because they're wanting to switch over to a good system. This is the exact same reason why we don't have a World of Warcraft 2 or replacement for all the old stuff, because you're asking people to more or less start from scratch for things they've had for almost a DECADE at this point.
    It's such a uniquely MMO problem, too. People don't bemoan a single player game (or even most multiplayer games, at least not before microtransactions and Skinner bullshit became the design standard) "moving on." I don't recall anyone complaining that we couldn't bring our Warrior, Rogue, or Wizard into Diablo 2, we just accepted that Diablo 1 was done and it was time to do a new game with new characters. Only in MMOs is there an expectation that you should be able to keep all your shit from the past 10+ years while moving onto the next big thing. I think it's something that players need to be weaned off of, because the *game* is worse off from being chained to outdated tech and design for the sake of what amounts to just a pile of assets. But then again, subscription-based MMOs aren't really a thing anymore anyway. Easier and cheaper to just make a game F2P and funded by microtransactions, freemium currency/battlepass, etc.

    Second, Bare minimum would be 'cutting out half the expansion because they failed in every way presenting it'. Bare minimum would be making a never ending treadmill that they never really touch outside of 'ooh, look, new effect that you're going to hate even MORE this week'. Bare minimum would going and begging players to stay subbed to their game for a year or more by getting a special mount if they do it. There are things to complain and criticize FFXIV, sure. But 'doing the bare minimum' isn't one of them.
    No, I think "midwalker" has been exactly the bare minimum. I think that "bare minimum" lingers is higher than where you expect it to be, however. Longer patch cycles, with the patches containing less content than before, and (arguably) less inspired encounters in savage (though IMO we've been on a steady decline since Eden's Verse) feels about the "bare minimum" possible. Island Sanctuary is solo content with an expiration date - once you finish building up the island, it's just a weekly spreadsheet you fill out. Variant dungeons are barely enough content to occupy a single afternoon or two, criterion and criterion savage are *way* too hard for the average player, and the lack of competent reward schedules for doing them means PF tends to be empty even if you do want to do them.

    PvP (which received far more support than I ever expected it to, although still not nearly enough to keep enough active players to make ranked worth a damn) and ultimates are the only two things in this entire expansion that felt like more than the bare minimum. Keep in mind, we didn't get a new Bozja and we didn't get a new Ishgard Restoration, so those variant dungeons, island sanctuary, etc were supposed to fill in the gaps and have largely failed to do so.

    Can you decry FFXIV for playing it safe and offering us the same things over and over, or not offering us things like Bozja?
    I'm actually fine with them playing it safe. Clone Shadowbringers' content package with a new coat of paint and maybe some iterative improvements and I'll be happy. Add in a V&C dungeon (and please give criterion rewards to make it worth doing) in the .x5 patch to make up for ShB cutting the second dungeon we used to get and I really won't have much left to complain about.

    There's a lot of reasons ShB did so well, and it wasn't *just* the story and COVID keeping everyone inside. It offered a wide array of *RENEWABLE* content for players of almost all skill levels. The one thing it fell short on was only having the one ultimate, but TEA is (IMO) the best ultimate they've done by far (although DSR is the best for story/lore, as pretty much everyone expected) so I feel like that softens the blow a little. Plus, ultimate is such a tiny portion of player engagement that I think just having one *really fucking good* ultimate that's tuned to an obsessive degree is probably better than getting two that were so punishing that a lot of players just burned out before clearing. That's just opinion, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    "just rebuild ur live service game's engine 4head" is all I see here.
    I mean, more practically I'm saying "make FFXIV-2." End FFXIV with Endwalker. Patch 6.0 has Zodiark as the final boss, with the "he wasn't the real bad guy all along!" cliffhanger. Patch 6.1-6.3 has you finish up on the moon (offloading most of the Loporrit stuff to sidequests since they will no longer need to function as a breather between story beats) and has two full patches (6.2 and 6.3) fully devoted to helping Eorzea wrestle with the Final Days. 6.4 has you visit Elpis, and 6.5 is the climatic finale against Endsinger and then your struggle snuggle with Zenos.

    FFXIV-2/Dawntrail is its own, separate game. New/updated engine, all the works. You can either go the "no longer the WoL, but some random person existing in Eorzea" for an entirely new plot, or maybe you could *start* the game with a calamity and have the WoL and Scions literally live/play through a fucking calamity and the rest of the game is just them helping Eorzeans survive and rebuild. I prefer the former, but I've seen some pretty good spitballing for how the latter would play out and I think it could be pretty great too.

    Horribly, horribly impractical from a business standpoint. But I don't see how continuing to drag tech debt along behind you makes for a better *game.* Starting over every five or six years seems like a lot better proposition.

  3. #1343
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    If some were to be believed, XIV servers would be a complete ghost town.

    I've never experienced that, thoughever.
    This is exactly what I mean with the insane over exaggeration by the same 3-4 people on this subforum.

    I have to imagine the people saying this are like sitting in a corner of a ARR zone somewhere staring at a wall. Any major city I go into I see people everywhere. Every EW zone I see people all over the place, and most of the ShB ones still too. Even SB zones just out in the world.

    Goddamn I mean most Friday & Saturday nights there are so many people in cities that the game can't even keep up with it. And I'm not even talking about Limsa lol
    Last edited by Arlette; 2023-08-26 at 10:51 PM.

  4. #1344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Go watch netflix, play other games or anything. Just because a game is an MMO doesn't mean it can't have natural stopping and starting points. You seem to have this irrational definition that an MMO must be an endless grind when really it just means you are sharing a world with a large amount of other players.
    Watching netflix, podcasts, documentaries, etc is a primary thing to *do* while engaging in light grind content in XIV! Pretty much everything I did in Ishgard/Diadem was done with a podcast or show running on the other screen. It's the ideal kind of content for it - you don't need complete, undivided attention on the game and it's pretty much self-paced so you have plenty of time to wait to watch a scene in the show, chat with other players, etc. Bozja was worse for this than Eureka due to FATEs being pretty much go go go nonstop, but still better than anything in EW.

    Y'all have to stop acting like grind-able goals and things in the game are automatically "you must no-life the game." We're talking about XIV, not Battle for Azeroth.

  5. #1345
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    This is exactly what I mean with the insane over exaggeration by the same 3-4 people on this subforum.

    I have to imagine the people saying this are like sitting in a corner of a ARR zone somewhere staring at a wall. Any major city I go into I see people everywhere. Every EW zone I see people all over the place, and most of the ShB ones still too. Even SB zones just out in the world.
    Hush now, you're interupting their WoW fanboy FFXIV-hate circle jerk. As if this forum wasn't WoW-biased enough...
    "That shit went down faster than a gold digger on a dying rich dude".

  6. #1346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    If some were to be believed, XIV servers would be a complete ghost town.

    I've never experienced that, thoughever.
    A few weeks ago, when Thavnair had instances just after 6.45 release, it was fun to watch how many people was in them. Usually it was 3-5 every time (unless there is a hunt train or an S rank, of course). Heck, I went to do FATEs in Laby like 1 month after EW release and it was less than 10 people per instance. While not a complete ghost town, it's not a lot of people. Limsa Aetheryte Plaza is not a way to gauge the "ghost town". ^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmoden View Post
    Hush now, you're interupting their WoW fanboy FFXIV-hate circle jerk. As if this forum wasn't WoW-biased enough...
    Huh? I don't have FFXIV! And I certainly don't like WoW, in fact, I would like that game to burn in a fire (or at least, the people who send it into the gutter to be fired).
    In fact, I'd like FFXIV to succeed!

    FFXIV is an awesome game that is a) criminally underfunded compared to the money it brings (see "cash cow"), and b) ran by a team who clearly doesn't understand the priorities they should set when they develop an MMORPG. I can only speculate, of course, but I suspect there was some kind of very negative reaction to the FFXI experience, and they are now doing the complete opposite, even if it means stripping an MMORPG of what makes it an MMORPG.
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  7. #1347
    A lot of people really like that "it's not really a MMORPG." (Which isn't true but people love to say that also its kind of lost any meaning tbh since people use it for every specific individual gripe they have with the game)

    So I'm glad that's what they've chosen.

    And is exactly what I mean when I say a lot of the solutions offered to shortcomings of the game are directly contradictory to what a lot of people like about the game and would actively make it worse. Plenty of us like that it's this dissimilar to GW2 or WoW or whatever other MMO.
    Last edited by Arlette; 2023-08-26 at 11:29 PM.

  8. #1348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    A lot of people really like that "it's not really a MMORPG." (Which isn't true but people love to say that also its kind of lost any meaning tbh since people use it for every specific individual gripe they have with the game)
    What I said was: "SE is running the game as if it was not an MMORPG, but a single-player game that happens to have an online mode".
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  9. #1349
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Y'all have to stop acting like grind-able goals and things in the game are automatically "you must no-life the game." We're talking about XIV, not Battle for Azeroth.
    My dude some of the older relic grinds in XIV make BFA look like a casual dream.

    The game simply doesn't need anymore resources put into optional grinds than it already has. They wisely put their resources where their success has come from. They increased the amount of voice acting with every xpac, they are upgrading the graphics engine and they are tying most optional content into good stories these days instead of just being dumb grinds for the sake of it.

    "but just make the game how I want it and not how you have had success!!!!!!!!" Either that or you think they can do everything, because gamers are always silly and think developers have unlimited budgets and resources. /yawn
    Last edited by Tech614; 2023-08-26 at 11:46 PM.

  10. #1350
    Damn, ya'll gettin carried away again, I see.

  11. #1351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    A lot of people really like that "it's not really a MMORPG." (Which isn't true but people love to say that also its kind of lost any meaning tbh since people use it for every specific individual gripe they have with the game)

    So I'm glad that's what they've chosen.

    And is exactly what I mean when I say a lot of the solutions offered to shortcomings of the game are directly contradictory to what a lot of people like about the game and would actively make it worse. Plenty of us like that it's this dissimilar to GW2 or WoW or whatever other MMO.
    I think that's more like "a lot of people are glad it's not full of borrowed power daily login bullshit" (aside from beast tribes for some weird reason.) But even WoW doesn't have that stuff anymore...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    My dude some of the older relic grinds in XIV make BFA look like a casual dream.
    I have at least one of every combat relic. None of them are especially onerous. The slowest part about ARR relics is the books, and only then because you have to do specific FATEs. If it was just do 5 or even 10 FATEs in this zone, it wouldn't be very stressful (and that's probably how it should be now that ARR isn't the end-game.)

    The worst grinds are probably Ishgard pteranodon and the Luminary gatherer tools (each requires like several ten thousand gathers...)

  12. #1352
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    If some were to be believed, XIV servers would be a complete ghost town.

    I've never experienced that, thoughever.
    I would say the dynamis DC is the only one that has many empty spots simply due to the low population and it being mostly completely new players that are on them at this point.

  13. #1353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moralgy View Post
    I would say the dynamis DC is the only one that has many empty spots simply due to the low population and it being mostly completely new players that are on them at this point.
    Even then it's still moderately active. It's just that you usually need to put some effort into grouping up and you can't expect anything but your typical dungeon roulettes to pop rapidly outside of prime time. It's hardly dead, though. There's some serious work put in by some discord communities, and since DF might mean wait times, people tend to just throw a PF up if they need MSQ progress instead. Not only do you get to meet people, you get to BLU the content!

    Honestly, I'm having way more fun on Dynamis than I ever did on Crystal. Taking the free ride over was the right choice.

  14. #1354
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    I think that's more like "a lot of people are glad it's not full of borrowed power daily login bullshit" (aside from beast tribes for some weird reason.) But even WoW doesn't have that stuff anymore...
    I mean...no. Not at all lol

    The game isn't designed around a system forcing you to constantly log in weekly. The Renown system being tied to seeing the stories of all the factions and the overall plot is still a major issue that 14 does not have.

    BfA did that, Shadowlands did that, and Dragonflight continues that trend. If you want the full story of the launch content or the patch content, you need to spend weeks and weeks grinding a resource every single week to end up seeing it down the line, usually just coincidentally just long enough that you need to buy 2 months of sub time to see its conclusion.

    WoW ABSOLUTELY still has grinds like this in the game. They just disguise it very slightly better nowadays.
    Last edited by Arlette; 2023-08-27 at 10:10 AM.

  15. #1355
    Quote Originally Posted by Moralgy View Post
    I would say the dynamis DC is the only one that has many empty spots simply due to the low population and it being mostly completely new players that are on them at this point.
    Yeah, I think the problem is just that it's kind of a snowball thing.

    It didn't really get its bearings the way it should, therefore nobody went to play there except people who really were clamoring for that DC (and even those probably left) and new players. The fewer people there are, the fewer there'll stay. Dynamis really needs a kick in the ass to get a chunk of people to play there to make it a server you can actually play on, then others will surely join. Maybe 7.0 will give it that kick, maybe not.

    For my DC and servers, however, it's seemed as active as always.

  16. #1356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    I think that's more like "a lot of people are glad it's not full of borrowed power daily login bullshit" (aside from beast tribes for some weird reason.)
    Beast Tribes are the same cosmetic poop, though. Unless, of course, you still need to level your DOH/DOL by the time the respective get released, then it may actually be a bit useful.

    But otherwise, they need to put more rep stuff like it in game, 3 per expansion is nowhere enough. Yeah, you also get custom deliveries but these are pretty easy to max.
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  17. #1357
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    The game isn't designed around a system forcing you to constantly log in weekly. The Renown system being tied to seeing the stories of all the factions and the overall plot is still a major issue that 14 does not have.
    Beast tribes are somewhat analogous to this, and some of them take longer IIRC? (I don't do many of them, I'm sad to say. "Metered" story content kinda drives me nuts.)

  18. #1358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    The game isn't designed around a system forcing you to constantly log in weekly. The Renown system being tied to seeing the stories of all the factions and the overall plot is still a major issue that 14 does not have.
    I'm sorry, but how is having to play the game an "issue"? At that rate, having to plough through the MSQ to access end-game content in FFXIV is an issue as well.
    The key is to not overdo it, and by what you are describing (I haven't touched WoW since mid-BFA), WoW does exactly that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Beast tribes are somewhat analogous to this, and some of them take longer IIRC? (I don't do many of them, I'm sad to say. "Metered" story content kinda drives me nuts.)
    Back in SHB, it took me about 4 months of dailies to do all ARR, HW and SB tribes (I already had SHB ones done). So yes, it's a hefty chunk of stuff to do, but then again, it's absolutely not mandatory.

    If anything, there is a lot more lore hidden behind the SHB and EW role quests than behind these (although tribe quests still give some interesting factoids).

    Otherwise, most beast tribes are tuned to finish the story in 21-30 days.
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  19. #1359
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Beast tribes are somewhat analogous to this, and some of them take longer IIRC? (I don't do many of them, I'm sad to say. "Metered" story content kinda drives me nuts.)
    On the one hand, I wanna say beast tribe stories aren't that important so it isn't as big a deal as locking main story stuff behind it.

    On the other hand, the Omicron story was pretty cool and kind of serves as a good continuation to Ultima Thule after the MSQ, even giving you an indication of the fate of its "inhabitants" post-Endsinger's death, and if you liked the Loporrits at all, seeing more of them and what they do after Endwalker is probably worth your while.

    The same applies to a lot of tribes. You learn a lot about the people you meet in the MSQ and what they're up to/what some of them do after you finish your business with them.

  20. #1360
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    I enjoyed the Omicron storyline quite a lot, too!
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