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  1. #1501
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Dude, yes. I have wondered this so many times.

    It's amazing how many people - even at max level - have absolutely no idea where Bahamut went or why. The number of people that I've heard say something along the lines of, "When is Bahamut coming back, they just put him in a cinematic and then he disappeared?" is somewhat amazing.
    I've got a few jobs at max level now and I uhh have no idea what happened with bahamut

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeenith View Post
    sadly, some of those raids or optional dungeons are just "blue quests" on the map sometimes, with no npc to start a chain from one of the capitals to lead to unlock them
    (personally I have unlocked all raids 1st boss, but most I didn't take the time to actually do them all yet, and I've started 2 and 1/2 years, about 3 monthes before EW start)

    so yeah, lots of stuff people should be pushed toward, even if with no obligation to do at a specific level (unsynched with max level and good gear is a blessing to finish those stories when you don't care about the "challenge")
    I've been working my way through these as I have time, I more focused on leveling alt jobs. Sometimes I wish it was more clear. Like hey do this to learn about bahamut but this one overhere is just to unlock glamours etc
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  2. #1502
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I've been working my way through these as I have time, I more focused on leveling alt jobs. Sometimes I wish it was more clear. Like hey do this to learn about bahamut but this one overhere is just to unlock glamours etc
    That's another problem with ARR, so many borderline useless quests with the same blue icon as important ones. The xpacs mostly don't have this problem, if something has that marker it's usually worth doing but players get trained to not do them after seeing their 50th useless obscure levequest.

  3. #1503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The number of people that I've heard say something along the lines of, "When is Bahamut coming back, they just put him in a cinematic and then he disappeared?" is somewhat amazing.
    I mean, he looks pretty much dead in the cinematic, being shattered by Louisoux's attack.
    In Coils you see he is still alive and you can coup de grace him but it means nothing for the rest of the MSQ.
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  4. #1504
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I mean, he looks pretty much dead in the cinematic, being shattered by Louisoux's attack.
    In Coils you see he is still alive and you can coup de grace him but it means nothing for the rest of the MSQ.
    You don't see those cinematics without doing Coils (or YouTube, but if you don't know to look...) so...yeah, people don't know.

  5. #1505
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I mean, he looks pretty much dead in the cinematic, being shattered by Louisoux's attack.
    In Coils you see he is still alive and you can coup de grace him but it means nothing for the rest of the MSQ.
    Bahamut isn't even the most important part of Coils(not that it isn't, just not the biggest thing). That would be it being the proper and true introduction of Alisaie outside of the 5 second cameo you get of her early in ARR. HW post MSQ is a shitty introduction where she just gets DID'ed if you didn't know what she was capable of already from coils.

    Meanwhile some people unironically act like doing some fetch quests for Sylphs is some game defining story setup when it's actually just trash, while important things like coils are optional so why isn't most of ARR optional?
    Last edited by Tech614; 2024-04-02 at 01:27 AM.

  6. #1506
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I mean, he looks pretty much dead in the cinematic, being shattered by Louisoux's attack.
    In Coils you see he is still alive and you can coup de grace him but it means nothing for the rest of the MSQ.
    That's not exactly true. Him being alive is basically part of the reason why the Aether is all out of whack for all of 2.X until his demise, because he's literally sucking Aether from the land to heal himself. And that concept carries over to the rest of the MSQ, and why the primals are a bad thing.

  7. #1507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Dude, yes. I have wondered this so many times.

    It's amazing how many people - even at max level - have absolutely no idea where Bahamut went or why. The number of people that I've heard say something along the lines of, "When is Bahamut coming back, they just put him in a cinematic and then he disappeared?" is somewhat amazing.
    It's even funnier to talk about Phoenix and you get "what, you mean that bird chick that was down bad for that one guy?"

    One of FF's most enduring summons and it's completely absent if you don't do coils. I guess you can argue on the *necessity* of revamping ARR (and 1-50 gameplay), and it's almost certainly not enough of a business concern to warrant the work hours from a simple profit analysis, but in terms of presenting a cohesive product? Yeah, it needs doing.

    I think it's really strange that we're talking about how we can't have a skip or suggest they do something like Chromie Time because of the sanctity and importance of the story, and yet ARR has a *lot* of retcons and stuff like that. Not to mention the narrative design leaves a lot to be desired - the Garleans are our big bads, yet they aren't even introduced beyond "obviously evil dude saying vague, evil things while observing the good guys from a distance" Disney shit until the last few hours of gameplay. Well, I guess they do kill some of those unimportant, nameless faceless Scion hangers-on but at least for me, I had zero emotional connection to the act because it felt like I had only just begun to get to know the Scions and their organization. Maybe a consequence of *dramatic* XP bumps (especially if you use DF for a daily dungeon, let alone more than one per day) since ARR was fresh, but it's one more thing that really ought to be addressed. I think the basic foundation of ARR makes for a solid FF-style plot but the way it's laid out leaves something to be desired.

    And then you get into the gameplay half, which *also* hasn't changed much since ARR's days except for when they make widespread changes or the class got a rework. I think part of why 1-50 feels so bad is because these core skills were being set out in a time when you were not only expected but *required* to level other classes, and you had a wide array of cross-class skills you could fill empty spaces on your bars with. I even remember leveling and exploring as a class, rather than as a job, so that I could have a wider array of cross-class skills to pick from since the Warrior job perks weren't really that useful outside of tanking compared to having extra DPS buttons, rez or cure in case I saw someone that needed help (people asking for rezzes in chat was common), etc.

    Inconsistency in class balancing and design is probably the #1 problem FFXIV has, in my opinion, and it's had it for basically the entire time I've played it (though I didn't do raiding in ARR so I only have vague memories of some things not lining up well.) It's honestly kind of amazing it's gone on for this long and nothing has been done about it. Do they seriously not just have a fucking style guide to work from??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    That's another problem with ARR, so many borderline useless quests with the same blue icon as important ones. The xpacs mostly don't have this problem, if something has that marker it's usually worth doing but players get trained to not do them after seeing their 50th useless obscure levequest.
    Or how glamour is, as far as I'm aware, still locked behind a bog standard yellow side quest.

    There's probably a lot of stuff that could just be unlocked automatically upon qualifying for it and the game just gives you one of those "active help" pop-ups that explains it.

  8. #1508
    I created an alt after all these years and I was surprised the game actually hand-holds you to accept quests and follow the MSQ for a short-bit instead of letting you loose like WoW / old XIV did. I don't exactly think it accomplishes much, but it speaks to reason they did this because people got lost enough to do it lol. I know WoW hand-holds you by having linear design for the character starting areas (which is good for newcomers, obvs.)

    So props to them I guess. I'll have to redo the whole ARR arc to see how much it has (or hasn't) improved since I experienced it in 2.0 -- besides the MSQ queue changes which I think were mostly for the better. It's still a massive pain point for newcomers I feel, but at least the MSQ is (from what I'm told) more than enough EXP to simply focus on it alone.

  9. #1509
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    I created an alt after all these years and I was surprised the game actually hand-holds you to accept quests and follow the MSQ for a short-bit instead of letting you loose like WoW / old XIV did. I don't exactly think it accomplishes much, but it speaks to reason they did this because people got lost enough to do it lol. I know WoW hand-holds you by having linear design for the character starting areas (which is good for newcomers, obvs.)

    So props to them I guess. I'll have to redo the whole ARR arc to see how much it has (or hasn't) improved since I experienced it in 2.0 -- besides the MSQ queue changes which I think were mostly for the better. It's still a massive pain point for newcomers I feel, but at least the MSQ is (from what I'm told) more than enough EXP to simply focus on it alone.
    Oh yea xp is definitely a non issue now, the MSQ probably gives you enough xp to level 2 jobs at once if you balance them even without being on a new DC with the buff.

  10. #1510
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    I created an alt after all these years and I was surprised the game actually hand-holds you to accept quests and follow the MSQ for a short-bit instead of letting you loose like WoW / old XIV did. I don't exactly think it accomplishes much, but it speaks to reason they did this because people got lost enough to do it lol. I know WoW hand-holds you by having linear design for the character starting areas (which is good for newcomers, obvs.)

    So props to them I guess. I'll have to redo the whole ARR arc to see how much it has (or hasn't) improved since I experienced it in 2.0 -- besides the MSQ queue changes which I think were mostly for the better. It's still a massive pain point for newcomers I feel, but at least the MSQ is (from what I'm told) more than enough EXP to simply focus on it alone.
    I find the MSQ is generally fine. It's the post expansion quests that really kill you
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  11. #1511
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    That's not exactly true. Him being alive is basically part of the reason why the Aether is all out of whack for all of 2.X until his demise, because he's literally sucking Aether from the land to heal himself. And that concept carries over to the rest of the MSQ, and why the primals are a bad thing.
    Sure, but it's not really important

    Primals are dealt with. The garleans are dealt with. We move on to Ishgard.

    Coils is a side story for a reason. Sure, you get to know Alisae beforehand and more Bahamut, but it does not really matter for the rest of the MSQ
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  12. #1512
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    it does not really matter for the rest of the MSQ
    It matters more than the majority of mandatory ARR shit.

  13. #1513
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Sure, but it's not really important

    Primals are dealt with. The garleans are dealt with. We move on to Ishgard.

    Coils is a side story for a reason. Sure, you get to know Alisae beforehand and more Bahamut, but it does not really matter for the rest of the MSQ
    The binding coils are extremely important lore wise, but the requirements to not only unlock it, do them or beat it all is extremely tedious and not at all worth it to a newbie or even vets of the game by now. Why do you think they retold a lot of lore from the coils throughout the MSQ again? The amount of people who've done coils is really small these days lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Oh yea xp is definitely a non issue now, the MSQ probably gives you enough xp to level 2 jobs at once if you balance them even without being on a new DC with the buff.
    S'what I thought, which is nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I find the MSQ is generally fine. It's the post expansion quests that really kill you
    I've had a couple of friends go through the post-MSQ before and after the major reworks. From what I can tell it's trimmed down a lot but there are still busy-work things that exist for no reason.

  14. #1514
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    The binding coils are extremely important lore wise, but the requirements to not only unlock it, do them or beat it all is extremely tedious and not at all worth it to a newbie or even vets of the game by now. Why do you think they retold a lot of lore from the coils throughout the MSQ again? The amount of people who've done coils is really small these days lol.
    If there's one thing that the FFXIV Devs haven't gone back an updated yet that surprises me, it's Coils. I get it that, like all the other eight mans it's optional content, but it still feels weird that they've not tried to spruce it up just a little bit. It's probably the major criticism i've got for them right now considering that it's near impossible to play that area legit these days for someone whose wanting to go through there for the story.

  15. #1515
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Snipping cuz phone typing hehe. Though the quoted part doesn't have much to do with this post.

    How many people does ff14 push away though by having ARR be the slog that it is? I'll grant you the 6/10 story quality. For every 1 person who makes it through to heavensward how many stop playing and give up?

    If not a skip I think some much heavier streamlining needs to happen. (I get they pruned some and shortened some already, but it's frankly not enough) they could really make it a solid experience if they wanted to invest there while keeping the core story fully intact
    It made me stop, at least. I just couldn't get through the deluge of MMO quests. That worked back when I was starting in WoW, close to 20 (!) years ago now. Fresh new world, brand new experience, a new genre I barely had any idea existed even. But now it's dated as fuck and there's a reason WoW speedruns through the initial leveling aspect and even in Classic the entire point now is whatever's at the current endgame. MMO questing sucks. You're not going to immerse me into your world by asking me to kill 8 dudes and collect 12 dude asses.

    Just cut the fat and abridge the story to the main beats and main cast. Leave the rest as optional side content of course, no need to nuke it from orbit, perhaps add cosmetic rewards to it so people are encouraged to go back and do it if they want to. Then maybe I'll try it again, but I refuse to slog through outdated questing to one day get to the good stuff. I got other shit to play and loads of it.
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  16. #1516
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Sure, but it's not really important

    Primals are dealt with. The garleans are dealt with. We move on to Ishgard.

    Coils is a side story for a reason. Sure, you get to know Alisae beforehand and more Bahamut, but it does not really matter for the rest of the MSQ
    That's an incredibly watered down view of storytelling. The entire premise OF ARR is what happened to Bahamut. It's one of the largest mysterious and it's the reasons the Ascians are back I the first place, because they want to finish what he started. Saying that it's not important tells me you're either not interested in the world buildings or intentionally ignoring lore. Because Coil is, to date, the most important lore and story in an 8 man raid since 2013.

  17. #1517
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    If there's one thing that the FFXIV Devs haven't gone back an updated yet that surprises me, it's Coils. I get it that, like all the other eight mans it's optional content, but it still feels weird that they've not tried to spruce it up just a little bit. It's probably the major criticism i've got for them right now considering that it's near impossible to play that area legit these days for someone whose wanting to go through there for the story.
    Yeah, even a "Coils (Normal)" would be super cool. (Normal makes no sense here, but you get what I mean.)

    I almost feel bad because a lot of new players saw streamers breezing through content like Coils and ARR Extremes because said streamers had people willing to group for it, but Average Joe player is basically always going to be stuck doing it unsync'ed.

  18. #1518
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    That's an incredibly watered down view of storytelling. The entire premise OF ARR is what happened to Bahamut. It's one of the largest mysterious and it's the reasons the Ascians are back I the first place, because they want to finish what he started. Saying that it's not important tells me you're either not interested in the world buildings or intentionally ignoring lore. Because Coil is, to date, the most important lore and story in an 8 man raid since 2013.

    The entire premise of ARR is the consequences of Bahamut's attack. How the world fares five years after the calamity. Not the primal itself.
    If you skip Coils there's nothing you miss or fail to understand on the story.

    Sure, Coils is great background lore and provides closure to Bahamut itself and Louisoux (And Nael I guess). But it does not do much for the MSQ itself.
    The story does not go back to Bahamut save some mentions by Tiamat and other characters and the appearance of Lunar Bahamut. But it does reference the Calamity.
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  19. #1519
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    The entire premise of ARR is the consequences of Bahamut's attack. How the world fares five years after the calamity. Not the primal itself.
    If you skip Coils there's nothing you miss or fail to understand on the story.

    Sure, Coils is great background lore and provides closure to Bahamut itself and Louisoux (And Nael I guess). But it does not do much for the MSQ itself.
    The story does not go back to Bahamut save some mentions by Tiamat and other characters and the appearance of Lunar Bahamut. But it does reference the Calamity.
    This is quite silly position to take, that it's supposedly not vital to the MSQ yet all the garbage in post ARR MSQ up until basically shiva is trash that is completely irrelevant to the MSQ altogether yet it's mandatory.

    Imagine they replaced that trash with an updated coils quest line, the MSQ is instantly better and ARR sucks a lot less for minimal work. And it's also shit that's actually relevant to the MSQ unlike the shitty fetch quests they have you doing for just a some minorly relevant trials prior to 2.4.

    It's not going to happen anyways, it's just pointing out the hypocrisy of how irrelevant a lot of the ARR story is while something stupid relevant like Coils is optional. The whole "they need to see the story" gatekeep argument falls apart when you realize this.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2024-04-06 at 07:49 PM.

  20. #1520
    The argument that the entire plot until Shiva is irrelevant is such an obvious untruth that it's not even worth pointing out every single part of ARR that becomes relevant again.

    That's such a fucking absurd claim to make roflmao.

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