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  1. #1521
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    If there's one thing that the FFXIV Devs haven't gone back an updated yet that surprises me, it's Coils. I get it that, like all the other eight mans it's optional content, but it still feels weird that they've not tried to spruce it up just a little bit. It's probably the major criticism i've got for them right now considering that it's near impossible to play that area legit these days for someone whose wanting to go through there for the story.
    Yeah, even a "Coils (Normal)" would be super cool. (Normal makes no sense here, but you get what I mean.)

    I almost feel bad because a lot of new players saw streamers breezing through content like Coils and ARR Extremes because said streamers had people willing to group for it, but Average Joe player is basically always going to be stuck doing it unsync'ed.

  2. #1522
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverLion View Post
    That's an incredibly watered down view of storytelling. The entire premise OF ARR is what happened to Bahamut. It's one of the largest mysterious and it's the reasons the Ascians are back I the first place, because they want to finish what he started. Saying that it's not important tells me you're either not interested in the world buildings or intentionally ignoring lore. Because Coil is, to date, the most important lore and story in an 8 man raid since 2013.

    The entire premise of ARR is the consequences of Bahamut's attack. How the world fares five years after the calamity. Not the primal itself.
    If you skip Coils there's nothing you miss or fail to understand on the story.

    Sure, Coils is great background lore and provides closure to Bahamut itself and Louisoux (And Nael I guess). But it does not do much for the MSQ itself.
    The story does not go back to Bahamut save some mentions by Tiamat and other characters and the appearance of Lunar Bahamut. But it does reference the Calamity.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  3. #1523
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    The entire premise of ARR is the consequences of Bahamut's attack. How the world fares five years after the calamity. Not the primal itself.
    If you skip Coils there's nothing you miss or fail to understand on the story.

    Sure, Coils is great background lore and provides closure to Bahamut itself and Louisoux (And Nael I guess). But it does not do much for the MSQ itself.
    The story does not go back to Bahamut save some mentions by Tiamat and other characters and the appearance of Lunar Bahamut. But it does reference the Calamity.
    This is quite silly position to take, that it's supposedly not vital to the MSQ yet all the garbage in post ARR MSQ up until basically shiva is trash that is completely irrelevant to the MSQ altogether yet it's mandatory.

    Imagine they replaced that trash with an updated coils quest line, the MSQ is instantly better and ARR sucks a lot less for minimal work. And it's also shit that's actually relevant to the MSQ unlike the shitty fetch quests they have you doing for just a some minorly relevant trials prior to 2.4.

    It's not going to happen anyways, it's just pointing out the hypocrisy of how irrelevant a lot of the ARR story is while something stupid relevant like Coils is optional. The whole "they need to see the story" gatekeep argument falls apart when you realize this.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2024-04-06 at 07:49 PM.

  4. #1524
    The argument that the entire plot until Shiva is irrelevant is such an obvious untruth that it's not even worth pointing out every single part of ARR that becomes relevant again.

    That's such a fucking absurd claim to make roflmao.

  5. #1525
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    The argument that the entire plot until Shiva is irrelevant is such an obvious untruth that it's not even worth pointing out every single part of ARR that becomes relevant again.

    That's such a fucking absurd claim to make roflmao.
    Ah yes tell us all the important plot details that happen 2.1-2.3 that are so vital and important to the story and why they need to be 38 quests worth. Explain how this entire plot couldn't be covered in 5 quests lol.

    Also add the part where this story is more important to the MSQ than coils, which is the point about the double standard. Coils is far more relevant to the MSQ and is optional content.

    You can't always get away with saying "this argument is so bad it's not worth pointing out where", at a certain point it just seems like you're trying to defend for the sake of it. I like XIV, and I agree with your takes a lot but ARR is a legitimate gripe that shit is bad dude and not worth defending. Let alone, we're talking about the WORST part of ARR here, I have never seen anyone unironically defend 2.1-2.3 that shit is almost universally panned as an unnecessary slog. People didn't even like it when ARR was current, granted it was even worse back then lol.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2024-04-06 at 09:02 PM.

  6. #1526
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Ah yes tell us all the important plot details that happen 2.1-2.3 that are so vital and important to the story and why they need to be 38 quests worth. Explain how this entire plot couldn't be covered in 5 quests lol.
    2.1 Alone is the moving from the Waking Sands to the Rising stones, the introduction of Great King Moggle Mog (May his pom always be fluffy), the WoL's first proper introduction to Elidibus, and the character moment of meeting Milfina's mom...

    That's a LOT of content that can't be squeezed into a single quest or two, and that's not even with me talking about some of the bigger things from the other patches, such as Yugiri's introduction and involvement. You clearly have no idea how to tell a story if you think all that could be cut down in the way you're thinking.

    Also add the part where this story is more important to the MSQ than coils, which is the point about the double standard. Coils is far more relevant to the MSQ and is optional content.
    Coils is important more from the aspect of us getting to know Alisaie better, but otherwise a lot of what coils is comes down to giving 1.0 players closure. And that's how most of the Raids are in the game, side content that expands and enhances, but outside of Crystal Tower isn't necessary. The only thing that would even draw the players to that is the same hint that every end of expansion gets, where we get a big flag waving in our face saying 'HEY MORE STORY HERE'.

    You can't always get away with saying "this argument is so bad it's not worth pointing out where", at a certain point it just seems like you're trying to defend for the sake of it. I like XIV, and I agree with your takes a lot but ARR is a legitimate gripe that shit is bad dude and not worth defending. Let alone, we're talking about the WORST part of ARR here, I have never seen anyone unironically defend 2.1-2.3 that shit is almost universally panned as an unnecessary slog. People didn't even like it when ARR was current, granted it was even worse back then lol.
    A lot of things can be made to help streamline ARR a bit more. A bit more use of linkpearls, a shift in where they point players towards content, even the occasional removal of a quest or two. But you've got no idea what you're talking about if you think over three patches worth of content, bloated as it may be, can be trimmed down so heavily and yet have the same meaning and impact it does right now.

  7. #1527
    To further supplement MsSydeEye's argument about Coils (As much as I like them) being just something for mostly 1.0 players, a lot of it makes no sense if you started in 2.0. As somebody who didn't play 1.0 but is a Final Fantasy (the franchise) nerd, learning about Bahamut got me hyped but that's because I know Bahamut from the series. I'm actually a little bummed out that they used him as the thing for the revamp of 1.0 into 2.0 event and removed him from the plot entirely after Coils due to how iconic he is.

    The importance of Nael, the whole lead up and reveal of her, left me wondering who the hell this is and why I should care about her. I had very little attachment to Louisoix as well, as much as ARR wants you to pretend to care about him. I cared about Alphinaud getting closure for his grandfather, not whatever fate befell the dude from the one cinematic I saw. I was more excited to see the Phoenix, again because I'm a FF franchise nerd, than knowing that Louisoix BECAME the Phoenix.

    The only important part of Coils, as many have pointed out, is Alisaie's proper introduction. I would like them to figure out some way to go back and revamp them exclusively for that alone. And to re-record the Coils voice lines for Alisaie because holy shit. I feel similarly about ARR/Coils as I do the FFT/12 and the Return to Ivalice series. Where it's mostly just fanservice for those games' fans and I think it failed to make me want to care about it within the confines of FF14. At least for Nier they bothered to make me care ENOUGH (Not that the Nier series was amazing storywise or anything) about what its ramifications mean for Eorzea that I was curious what happened next.

    Just for the record I never said ARR was perfect or amazing. I think I gave it a 6/10 in the past when talking about it, and that still feels about right. My one and only hardline on the subject is that I think just providing an option to skip it (paid or otherwise) is stupid because there are necessary things it sets up. Even more minor things like Thancred's love for Minifilia or Moenbryda and Urianger. Meme about Moenbryda all you want but Urianger's scene in Endwalker is one of the best things in the game imo and that doesn't hit as hard if you don't know who she is. Things that in the moment aren't super big but all add up to characterization for the Scions.

    The explanation of how the Ascians work is another one that pops into my head.

    I do not know what the right answer is for the fix for the problem I wholeheartedly agree exists about ARR and player retention, but the ones offered so far do not seem to be the right ones.
    Last edited by Arlette; 2024-04-07 at 07:30 AM.

  8. #1528
    I dunno, even just the resolution of the Calamity plot line alone seems pretty important. With all the talk of the Calamity that goes on in ARR, the references to Bahamut, the mystery regarding peoples memories, the permanent effects on the world, etc. Saying, "Well, the story can move on without that resolution, so no biggie" feels strange.

    It's not *wrong*, the story certainly does move on without it, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Hell, they made Crystal Tower raids mandatory after the fact just for the introduction of G'raha.

    Bahamut just disappearing with no explanation is like...I dunno, like if the Ascians just disappeared one day without explanation and we moved on to Dawntrail. You could then argue, "Well, the Ascian plot is over and we're moving on, it's not important to the future of the story to find out what happened." but that seems weird!
    Last edited by Ghost of Cow; 2024-04-07 at 03:34 PM.

  9. #1529
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    I dunno, even just the resolution of the Calamity plot line alone seems pretty important. With all the talk of the Calamity that goes on in ARR, the references to Bahamut, the mystery regarding peoples memories, the permanent effects on the world, etc. Saying, "Well, the story can move on without that resolution, so no biggie" feels strange.

    It's not *wrong*, the story certainly does move on without it, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Hell, they made Crystal Tower raids mandatory after the fact just for the introduction of G'raha.

    Bahamut just disappearing with no explanation is like...I dunno, like if the Ascians just disappeared one day without explanation and we moved on to Dawntrail. You could then argue, "Well, the Ascian plot is over and we're moving on, it's not important to the future of the story to find out what happened." but that seems weird!
    well there is that whole "5 years later...."
    so yeah, you could think as a new player than the marvelous video with bahamut has all events linked to it completed & done with.

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