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  1. #121
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread is about criticisms of FFXIV, it's not about WoW nor is it about comparing WoW to FFXIV explicitly. I'm aware some comparisons will need to be made for the purposes of argument, but let's pivot away from pure "Game vs. Game" debate and refocus the discussion on FFXIV itself.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    This doesnt make it any better but I am fairly certain the recent influx of more cash shop items is mostly the doing of the higher ups at Square forcing it.

    that said I am somewhat sick of it being the go to complaint from WoW peeps. Its the main unquestionably bad thing about FFXIV and they act like that alone makes FFXIV worse than WoW, and its MOUNTAIN of bad (including cash shop).
    It mostly bothers me when it's items that could and should have been ingame. Like a goofy item like the Fat Cat outfit? Whatever, put that on the shop. An NPC set? Fine. But stuff that fits in the game like the Pagaga emote that should've been from a sidequest/questline? That stuff irks me.

    Especially so when the past few event emotes and the future ones seem to be variations of the same /eat emote, just with a different item.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    Best part of this Final Fantasy 14 subforum is now how you just have burner accounts dishonestly shitting on the game while propping up Warcraft.
    Says the account with 2 posts? Really? My account name is the same as IGN, go ahead and Lodestone me if you think I'm some kind of sock puppet.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I don't know, but you are the one who said classic is more complex.

    I find FFXIV to be harder to play than classic for sure mostly due to the fact that it actually IS a strict sequence instead of a priority system. SAM is pretty strict because you will eventually drift out of damage windows and CDs won't line up anymore if you use "Meikyo Shisui" poorly.
    Same thing with "Ikishoten" or not using "Hagakure" properly and not taking into account how many GCDs you couldn't attack (depending on the encounter). Same thing with Higanbana. I can't just reapply it whenever with a click of a button, I need multiple GCDs to reapply the dot if I mess up and that in turn delays my DPS/Cooldown window which you then have to readjust to get back in line.

    I mean... I cleared everything by scrolling my mousewheel for 5-10 minutes in BC in each boss figh. It's not even a meme... it was the best way to play my spec.
    Could be that I remember classic being more complicated than it is. I do know that no one raided on Frost, though.

    And if that means both halves of WoW are garbage, then that just means both games are garbage and are afraid of giving players interesting/involved DPS cycles. Because Endwalker took the dumbing down from Shadowbringers and made it even dumber. No more thinking or planning involved, just vomit everything during 2 minute raid buffs and then everything lines up automatically from there because all of your oGCDs are divisible by 30 anyway. There's very little room for real optimization anymore, especially since Abyssos decided to make every fight have a boss with a room-wide hitbox so that melee never had to worry about trying to figure out if they could afford to greed a GCD or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    All I need to ask is: what does WoW give you? Years of spamming the same Valentine dungeon from 10 years+ ago for a 0.001% TCG rocket recolor mount?

    And some events give less exciting rewards some years because they cycle it out. One year, Valentione gives better rewards, other years, it's All Saints' Wake. And there's always an associated questline with it. Your claim that "people just skim past it anyway" doesn't suddenly do away with that. It's a cop-out.
    You're welcome to go through wikis and find out that you're viewing this with bias. There's entire years where the events were all duds, and there's been years where every event gave us something really cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Likely has to do with how Square cut funding to FFXIV 2 or 3 years ago.

    Because Square is ran by morons.
    I've always said that XIV is a fantastic game hamstrung by being tied to Square-Enix. I wonder what they could do if not for Square-Enix siphoning off their profits to go make a bonfire out of a Marvel license or something similarly retarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread is about criticisms of FFXIV, it's not about WoW nor is it about comparing WoW to FFXIV explicitly. I'm aware some comparisons will need to be made for the purposes of argument, but let's pivot away from pure "Game vs. Game" debate and refocus the discussion on FFXIV itself.
    Except, comparisons between two similar things are one of the most effective ways to discuss anything. There's some XIV fanboys in here that are trying to do the GRR WOW SADBOYS bullshit but you can just ignore or ban them, they aren't saying anything intelligent or useful. I think it's just that a small number of people here are incapable of understanding that criticism of one thing is not praise of another.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Likely has to do with how Square cut funding to FFXIV 2 or 3 years ago.

    Because Square is ran by morons.
    Source? Pretty sure Yoshi P is on record as recently as Shadowbringers saying that SE loves the work he does and gave him more funding than ever before?

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Says the account with 2 posts? Really? My account name is the same as IGN, go ahead and Lodestone me if you think I'm some kind of sock puppet.



    Could be that I remember classic being more complicated than it is. I do know that no one raided on Frost, though.

    And if that means both halves of WoW are garbage, then that just means both games are garbage and are afraid of giving players interesting/involved DPS cycles. Because Endwalker took the dumbing down from Shadowbringers and made it even dumber. No more thinking or planning involved, just vomit everything during 2 minute raid buffs and then everything lines up automatically from there because all of your oGCDs are divisible by 30 anyway. There's very little room for real optimization anymore, especially since Abyssos decided to make every fight have a boss with a room-wide hitbox so that melee never had to worry about trying to figure out if they could afford to greed a GCD or not.
    Did you ever consider playing a different job then?
    A BLM for example? Mapping out the fight properly is something they have to do and you can do for yourself.

    And what are you exactly criticising here.
    Cooldowns line up for a reason. In WoW as well.
    0:30, 1, 1:30, 2, 3, 5.

    etc.
    What did endwalker even change in that regard.
    And I don't know about that hitbox thing. That too didn't really change.
    It's about mechanics were you lose uptime, honestly though, it's not even something I want to have because it's actually bad to have forced downtimes.
    something like Hunger in P5S isn't exactly something I like. If you are 1 GCD late or early it's always awkward, especially since you are reliant on other people's buffs, like a dancer might still dance and you are already sitting on the 1000+potency finishers. I can fix all of that alright, but it is still something I have to think about if I care about DPS (which I don't, in most cases because it's not like enrage is whats holding my people back)
    But still, compared to what I did in classic or actually even do in retail for example it's hardly different.
    Popping CDs as they come up or as a dps window allows it. It's a cooldown, there is not much about it.

    I still feel priority lists are easier to "maintain" than proper rotations, especially when they are quirky like SAMs or BLMs due to movement and server ticks or slidecasts, or simply due to how the "combat-point" system is designed etc.. Sure, we can blame the game for the latency, but I actually think it's kinda cool to be able to slidecast - although I'm aware that I'm a minority here, feels good though.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-09-27 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Source? Pretty sure Yoshi P is on record as recently as Shadowbringers saying that SE loves the work he does and gave him more funding than ever before?
    It's pretty obvious that XIV as a project is way bigger than the team can handle. It's why there seem to be many cut corners or why they'll release a "side content" system and then it seems to go largely untouched for months or even years at a time, while they're busy focusing on something else.

    Of course, infinite payroll funding doesn't necessarily mean infinite work-hours. I know Square-Enix has gotten better over the years at outsourcing various bits and pieces of the project, but as far as I'm aware they still require members of the core teams to be fluent in Japanese and to live in Japan, which is obviously going to significantly limit their workforce pool.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Did you ever consider playing a different job then?
    A BLM for example? Mapping out the fight properly is something they have to do and you can do for yourself.

    And what are you exactly criticising here.
    Cooldowns line up for a reason. In WoW as well.
    0:30, 1, 1:30, 2, 3, 5.

    etc.
    What did endwalker even change in that regard.
    And I don't know about that hitbox thing. That too didn't really change.
    It's about mechanics were you lose uptime, honestly though, it's not even something I want to have because it's actually bad to have forced downtimes.
    something like Hunger in P5S isn't exactly something I like. If you are 1 GCD late or early it's always awkward, especially since you are reliant on other people's buffs, like a dancer might still dance and you are already sitting on the 1000+potency finishers. I can fix all of that alright, but it is still something I have to think about if I care about DPS (which I don't, in most cases because it's not like enrage is whats holding my people back)
    But still, compared to what I did in classic or actually even do in retail for example it's hardly different.
    Popping CDs as they come up or as a dps window allows it. It's a cooldown, there is not much about it.

    I still feel priority lists are easier to "maintain" than proper rotations, especially when they are quirky like SAMs or BLMs due to movement and server ticks or slidecasts, or simply due to how the "combat-point" system is designed etc.. Sure, we can blame the game for the latency, but I actually think it's kinda cool to be able to slidecast - although I'm aware that I'm a minority here, feels good though.
    Cooldowns in WoW Classic don't necessarily line up because they are designed to be used personally. It's common to hold cooldowns for Bloodlust, but when will Bloodlust be used? You can alter your timings based on the fight and a variety of other circumstances, this is particularly common when you're talking about hardmodes (since several of them require you to do something in the actual fight to start the hardmode itself, which may "reset" the fight, like XT.) And I'd argue only hardmodes are challenging enough where optimal use of cooldowns even matters, similar to how no one really cares about optimal ability usage in XIV normals or even Extremes due to very generous or nonexistent enrage timers.

    Incidentally, not only do I dislike the EW changes for over-simplifying DPS rotations, but the changes also create a lot of issues for PF groups. Dying when *literally everything* is lined up inside a single window, for the entire raid, is a *colossal* DPS loss if you die at the wrong time. If someone dies within about 10 sec of the next 2 minute window, you have to make a hard decision on whether or not the entire raid can just delay everything for 60 sec (to allow weakness to wear off), else that person will be *permanently outside of the DPS window*. I think this is fine for organized statics (although very boring), but it's a major issue for PF. Abyssos also implemented a lot more "body check mechanics" than previous tiers did, and those mechanics are also "okay but boring" for statics and often very frustrating for PF groups.

    While I don't think Abyssos is a *bad* raid tier, I do think that it has shown a lot of the major issues that XIV's core raid design is suffering from, or offering a preview of where that design is going to lead the game.

    I think that XIV needs to shift away from every class being a rather boring builder-spender design with mostly static rotations and "vomit everything every 60 or 120 sec" design. I want to see them make more classes heavily focused on priority systems (which means proc-based gameplay) and I want to see them abandon the "everyone blow their wad together every 120 sec," because I think "use your buttons when it makes the most sense for you to do so" makes for more interesting gameplay - in particular, it allows for a lot more player/skill expression as it means fight optimization is now heavily reliant on your class and what it can do (we saw this in ShB and previous expansions but it's largely eliminated from EW in any meaningful sense... even BLM now has so many movement-friendly options that they don't actually lose much from movement anymore.)

    BTW, the gigantic boss hitboxes and diminished importance of melee positionals/needing melee to lose GCDs avoiding damage is worse in EW than ever before. ShB had some bosses with giant hitboxes, but we never had an *entire tier* full of them like we do in Abyssos, and positionals matter less than ever - DRG could lose Raiden Thrust in ShB if you fucked up your positionals, whereas now it's just guaranteed even if you just facetank the boss. While savage is still fun and is arguably still challenging (though P8 was overtuned even by Square-Enix's standards), I do think they've gone a long way towards removing meaningful player expression/skill expression from the equation with Endwalker.

    It's why I honestly think that maybe they should just stop bothering with hardcore content altogether. A comparatively tiny portion of players engage with it (a large portion of savage clear rates come from people doing them for mounts and outfits *after* they outgear them and outfits like Lucky Bancho cannot meaningfully differentiate the two when looking at long-term statistics), yet we know that it costs a considerable amount of work-hours to produce (particularly ultimates.) I can only assume that metrics still indicate that savage is still profitable for them to be investing in. But with the direction EW design is heading, how long will that remain true?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    It's pretty obvious that XIV as a project is way bigger than the team can handle. It's why there seem to be many cut corners or why they'll release a "side content" system and then it seems to go largely untouched for months or even years at a time, while they're busy focusing on something else.
    This is just like some alternate reality here where you're making stuff up that is so abundantly untrue.

    As for the rest of the post, it's funny to see someone trying to pretend to breakdown why something that seems pretty universally loved is "so bad" as if just desperately TRYING to find some reasons to hate on it.

    Especially when talking about the other game, it's so obvious what you're doing.
    Last edited by Arlette; 2022-09-27 at 11:33 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    This is just like some alternate reality here where you're making stuff up that is so abundantly untrue.

    As for the rest of the post, it's funny to see someone trying to pretend to breakdown why something that seems pretty universally loved is "so bad" as if just desperately TRYING to find some reasons to hate on it.

    Especially when talking about the other game, it's so obvious what you're doing.
    I mean, I don't know of any other rational explanation for why development of XIV seems to be so random and intermittent when referring to anything that isn't critical path content (which I'd define as: MSQ, Extreme Trials, Alliance Raids, and Normal/Savage Raids.) Like, Blue Mage - introduced in 4.5, where it went over like a wet fart (Blue Mage is one of the most enjoyed classic FF class archetypes and it was *really bad* on release in XIV.) Then it got a largely unheralded update in 5.15 to level 60, where it started to be actually decent, and another largely unannounced update in 5.45 to level 70, where it actually started to become pretty great. We currently have no idea if or when Blue Mage will be updated in Endwalker.

    We know there's supposed to be a Gold Saucer update sometime in Endwalker. How long has it been since any of the Gold Saucer attractions or features (which basically define "side content") have received meaningful updates? I guess Triple Triad got the flying card mount for collecting cards - that's something, right? What about Verminion, Chocobo Racing, etc? When's the last time we got a new GATE or GATEs received substantial updates or changes?

    What about Deep Dungeons? When's the last time Palace of the Dead or Heaven-on-High received meaningful adjustments or updates? We didn't get a Deep Dungeon at all in Shadowbringers (I believe they blamed it on COVID delays coupled with the need to focus on Bozja development, which is fair), and while they've said we're getting one in Endwalker, when will that be? How long, after its launch, will it be before that new Deep Dungeon receives meaningful adjustments or improvements? What about the Deep Dungeon concept as a whole?

    If you actually look at the patch timelines and remove your bias from the equation, it's pretty clear that XIV is not very good at being *consistent* with side content production, much less ongoing support for that side content. The general pattern is that they push out a huge expansion/adjustment to side content (and I'm going to consider crafting and gathering side content here; others may not), and you might see some support for it over the next full patch cycle in addition to the cycle it was released in, but after that, it's rare to see substantial work done on that content until the next major content push... which is often years later (typically as part of the next expansion.) And, of course, there's the very well-known story of Chocobo Racing - it was managed by *one person* on the entire team. That guy later got promoted, and as a result the entire batch of side content has been left untouched for *several years* (I believe the last update was either at the beginning of Stormblood or end of Heavensward, I would need to check), despite it presumably not costing *that* many work-hours to maybe increase level caps, add one or two new maps, make balance adjustments, etc.

    "We can't spare the work hours" seems to be the most rational explanation, to me, especially since we know that Yoshidia maintains a healthy work environment and does not crunch his teams. What potential explanation would you consider to be more likely? "They're disorganized and incompetent" doesn't strike me as being a very likely one.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    It's pretty obvious that XIV as a project is way bigger than the team can handle. It's why there seem to be many cut corners or why they'll release a "side content" system and then it seems to go largely untouched for months or even years at a time, while they're busy focusing on something else.

    Of course, infinite payroll funding doesn't necessarily mean infinite work-hours. I know Square-Enix has gotten better over the years at outsourcing various bits and pieces of the project, but as far as I'm aware they still require members of the core teams to be fluent in Japanese and to live in Japan, which is obviously going to significantly limit their workforce pool.
    None of this has anything to do with my statement though regardless of my agreement with some of what you said, I don't want to debate that. The person I responded to stated that they cut funding. I asked for a source to back that up, because I'm fairly confident I've heard the exact opposite fairly recently. I just don't like agendas and misinformation, because your average clown can't tell them apart from facts these days even if it punched them repeatedly in the face.

    Now - I will say that You are correct about their workforce pool, he's gone on record numerous times stating those exact reasons.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    None of this has anything to do with my statement though regardless of my agreement with some of what you said, I don't want to debate that. The person I responded to stated that they cut funding. I asked for a source to back that up, because I'm fairly confident I've heard the exact opposite fairly recently. I just don't like agendas and misinformation, because your average clown can't tell them apart from facts these days even if it punched them repeatedly in the face.

    Now - I will say that You are correct about their workforce pool, he's gone on record numerous times stating those exact reasons.
    I mean, if you're going to demand verifiable empiric data in the line of profits, project funding, etc... that's literally never going to happen. No business is ever going to disclose that information because it would be utterly insane to do so.

    And PR men like Yoshida *are* going to lie to people about it, when they do talk about it.

    You need to adjust your expectations to suit the information that's actually available.

  11. #131
    Lots of talk about the shops. I personally hate the shops. That is one of my biggest gripes about FFXIV. Though other MMOs have them too, others doing it affects me worse in FFXIV. I (once in a great while) see someone with a store mount, etc in "the other" MMO but I see it so much in FFXIV. Since they've become so big, towns on my server are flooded with people just showing off their glamour, causing lag and my frame rate to nose dive when really, nobody cares other than that particular player.

    Similarly, I played FFXI for a very long time and there are people who spent hundreds into the thousands on in-game currency so they could buy all the "buyable" bling gear, sit around town hoping people will stop and "ooohhh! aaahhh!" them. I mean, I get it... a fool and his money are soon parted but create some kind of public hub specifically for people who like to do this and show it off so my poor GPU can breathe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread is about criticisms of FFXIV, it's not about WoW nor is it about comparing WoW to FFXIV explicitly. I'm aware some comparisons will need to be made for the purposes of argument, but let's pivot away from pure "Game vs. Game" debate and refocus the discussion on FFXIV itself.
    Regardless of what type of thread this is, these kinds of side discussions are inevitable because they are relevant to make points. Sometimes, when you think the grass isn't green enough, it's nice to know the grass is no greener on the other side. It's a great way to discuss the subject, not an unruly one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Except, comparisons between two similar things are one of the most effective ways to discuss anything. There's some XIV fanboys in here that are trying to do the GRR WOW SADBOYS bullshit but you can just ignore or ban them, they aren't saying anything intelligent or useful. I think it's just that a small number of people here are incapable of understanding that criticism of one thing is not praise of another.
    Case in point.

    I'm a veteran of both games and a ton of other games. Criticism is not a bad thing as some seem to think. You can have them for anything yet still thoroughly enjoy or love it.

    Though I don't recommend encouraging more frivilous banning, ignoring someone is a fine option if you honestly feel they are instigating or serving no value.
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2022-09-29 at 10:58 AM.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  12. #132
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Lots of talk about the shops. I personally hate the shops. That is one of my biggest gripes about FFXIV. Though other MMOs have them too, others doing it affects me worse in FFXIV. I (once in a great while) see someone with a store mount, etc in "the other" MMO but I see it so much in FFXIV. Since they've become so big, towns on my server are flooded with people just showing off their glamour, causing lag and my frame rate to nose dive when really, nobody cares other than that particular player.

    Similarly, I played FFXI for a very long time and there are people who spent hundreds into the thousands on in-game currency so they could buy all the "buyable" bling gear, sit around town hoping people will stop and "ooohhh! aaahhh!" them. I mean, I get it... a fool and his money are soon parted but create some kind of public hub specifically for people who like to do this and show it off so my poor GPU can breathe.
    Sounds like a problem with your GPU then. FFXIV limits the player count on screen
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Though other MMOs have them too, others doing it affects me worse in FFXIV. I (once in a great while) see someone with a store mount, etc in "the other" MMO but I see it so much in FFXIV.
    Yeah, I remember doing fate trains at one point and seeing like 50 people pop up in their cruise chasers was pretty darn funny at least.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Sounds like a problem with your GPU then. FFXIV limits the player count on screen
    PS5. Lots of videos that even show people's FPS tanking in areas where people heavily congregate. I avoid Limsa if possible.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Cooldowns in WoW Classic don't necessarily line up because they are designed to be used personally. It's common to hold cooldowns for Bloodlust, but when will Bloodlust be used? You can alter your timings based on the fight and a variety of other circumstances, this is particularly common when you're talking about hardmodes (since several of them require you to do something in the actual fight to start the hardmode itself, which may "reset" the fight, like XT.) And I'd argue only hardmodes are challenging enough where optimal use of cooldowns even matters, similar to how no one really cares about optimal ability usage in XIV normals or even Extremes due to very generous or nonexistent enrage timers.

    Incidentally, not only do I dislike the EW changes for over-simplifying DPS rotations, but the changes also create a lot of issues for PF groups. Dying when *literally everything* is lined up inside a single window, for the entire raid, is a *colossal* DPS loss if you die at the wrong time. If someone dies within about 10 sec of the next 2 minute window, you have to make a hard decision on whether or not the entire raid can just delay everything for 60 sec (to allow weakness to wear off), else that person will be *permanently outside of the DPS window*. I think this is fine for organized statics (although very boring), but it's a major issue for PF. Abyssos also implemented a lot more "body check mechanics" than previous tiers did, and those mechanics are also "okay but boring" for statics and often very frustrating for PF groups.

    While I don't think Abyssos is a *bad* raid tier, I do think that it has shown a lot of the major issues that XIV's core raid design is suffering from, or offering a preview of where that design is going to lead the game.
    I mean... you can just do the same in FFXIV.
    Delay cooldowns all you want if you think that can help. It's not like this can't be a thing just because you feed from other's buffs and abilities?
    I want my PI lining up with my high output CDs as well in WoW. If there is a mechanic where you need to delay your 2m window, delay it. What's the difference?
    The rotation doesn't break just because you delay shit?
    We do it all the time, albeit just slightly to line up with boss mechanics and ease of use, but it can, theoretically, be done indefenitely - at least the classes I played so far can but I certainly don't have all the jobs at max level and probably never will.

    BTW, the gigantic boss hitboxes and diminished importance of melee positionals/needing melee to lose GCDs avoiding damage is worse in EW than ever before. ShB had some bosses with giant hitboxes, but we never had an *entire tier* full of them like we do in Abyssos, and positionals matter less than ever - DRG could lose Raiden Thrust in ShB if you fucked up your positionals, whereas now it's just guaranteed even if you just facetank the boss. While savage is still fun and is arguably still challenging (though P8 was overtuned even by Square-Enix's standards), I do think they've gone a long way towards removing meaningful player expression/skill expression from the equation with Endwalker.
    That's what the community in FFXIV wants. People don't like to be dependent on positionals, them being less important but still important enough to deal extra potency is an acceptable sweetspot and not something that got "worse". I'm quite sure the majority of the playerbase will agree with that.

    I'm a SAM who likes the Kaiten removal for example. You might argue that messing something up is my own fault (but then, so is dying before a DPS window, which would make the first paragraph moot), but not having enough Kenki for a Kaiten-Higabana is unfixable. So instead of paying attention to that I now pay attention to getting third eye whenever I can. *shrug*
    Changing the class to a "Dancer Design" would be a bad choice as well, because it's not like I want to have procs/priorities (as I find those quite boring) and I could.. you know, just play the dancer instead which is designed for players who want procs/priorities. (+ ressource pooling)

    in particular, it allows for a lot more player/skill expression as it means fight optimization is now heavily reliant on your class and what it can do (we saw this in ShB and previous expansions but it's largely eliminated from EW in any meaningful sense... even BLM now has so many movement-friendly options that they don't actually lose much from movement anymore.)
    I don't think we will ever agree here, I never cared for what classes I raid together with (as long as the setup works) which is a plus for me and not a detriment, and I feel like you are dismissing QoL changes for what they are and without them, things are just going to be more miserable. The jobs played in FFXIV are, or at least should be, for how you want to play your rotations and what "role" you want to do. And fight optimization is still 100% there even without "personal"-cooldowns because you map every single fight to your job. So how is that gone?
    I wouldn't want to be reliant on the extra sprint button or having a horrible time because my class is just not mobile enough or whatever.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-09-28 at 07:40 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    I mean, if you're going to demand verifiable empiric data in the line of profits, project funding, etc... that's literally never going to happen. No business is ever going to disclose that information because it would be utterly insane to do so.

    And PR men like Yoshida *are* going to lie to people about it, when they do talk about it.

    You need to adjust your expectations to suit the information that's actually available.
    Your entire argument is irrelevant to my point again. The person I quoted stated "funding was cut 2/3 years ago". This is misinformation based on actual information provided by Yoshi P. If they have any kind of information to support their statement I would have liked to have seen it. Could be a LL where Yoshi made a comment, could be leaked documents, could be a snippet from one of their public reports, anything etc.

    Do I believe every word out of YoshiP's mouth? Absolutely not, but do I believe him over the word of some random poster with no source and misinformation? Yes.

    If you want to argue that the content they produced since then has deteriorated in quality, etc. to support the idea that funding was cut we can certainly debate that, but that's a very subjective discussion with gobs of nuance.

    And just so we're clear - feel free to browse my post history. I'm an avid critic of FF14 with hundreds of posts criticizing it, I'm not some rabid zealot like some of the other posters on here (just in case this is just a blood feud for you). I just don't care for misinformation or people who push agendas. I'm always down to discuss actual criticism.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2022-09-28 at 07:07 PM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I mean... you can just do the same in FFXIV.
    Delay cooldowns all you want if you think that can help. It's not like this can't be a thing just because you feed from other's buffs and abilities?
    I want my PI lining up with my high output CDs as well in WoW. If there is a mechanic where you need to delay your 2m window, delay it. What's the difference?
    The rotation doesn't break just because you delay shit?
    We do it all the time, albeit just slightly to line up with boss mechanics and ease of use, but it can, theoretically, be done indefenitely - at least the classes I played so far can but I certainly don't have all the jobs at max level and probably never will.
    You really *can't* delay in XIV on a personal level, not in EW, because DPS checks and the entire game is designed around all 8 players popping off at the same time. You might have *the entire raid group* delay because someone died or because it would make more sense to delay 20 seconds for a better burst window, but you won't see people doing this on a personal, individual level because that will just mean their DPS is tanked for the rest of the pull due to being desynced from the raid buffs.

    And if Abyssos is anything to go by, "delaying to wait for a better window" isn't really a thing since they've also apparently begun designing the fights themselves around these 2 minute windows. It's not a coincidence that "boss needs to take a breather" sections tend to closely align with a 120 second counter.

    That's what the community in FFXIV wants. People don't like to be dependent on positionals, them being less important but still important enough to deal extra potency is an acceptable sweetspot and not something that got "worse". I'm quite sure the majority of the playerbase will agree with that.
    The majority of the playerbase doesn't even maintain 90% GCD uptime in dungeons and normals and certainly doesn't perform a proper rotation. So who the fuck cares what the "majority of the playerbase" cares about? These players weren't doing proper rotations or positionals previously, so who is the change even for?

    I don't think we will ever agree here, I never cared for what classes I raid together with (as long as the setup works) which is a plus for me and not a detriment, and I feel like you are dismissing QoL changes for what they are and without them, things are just going to be more miserable. The jobs played in FFXIV are, or at least should be, for how you want to play your rotations and what "role" you want to do. And fight optimization is still 100% there even without "personal"-cooldowns because you map every single fight to your job. So how is that gone?
    I wouldn't want to be reliant on the extra sprint button or having a horrible time because my class is just not mobile enough or whatever.
    Put bluntly, it sounds like you are not playing at anywhere near the level where this kind of stuff has ever been relevant for you. You aren't going to notice removed opportunities for "skill expression" or whatever, if you weren't already performing at that level previously - you will literally not know what you're missing.

    I played a lot of Warrior in ShB, for example, and I fucking *despise* what they did to the class in EW. It was already the simplest tank, but they removed literally all of the class-specific things that allowed for optimization (or, rather, they removed the things that weaker players would fuck up and therefore lose DPS on), and as a result it feels fucking *awful* to play in EW. But for players who weren't playing at that optimized level, they don't notice the missing components and as a result they fucking *LOVE* "new" Warrior.

    Incidentally, this is why I really think Square-Enix need to get their shit together and decide if they actually want "hardcore" content or not. Because if we're going to be designing the game for players that don't exist and sacrificing work-hours that could be going towards more casual theme park content (which I really enjoy, don't take this as me hating on it), then I need them to understand that they can make classes a lot more complex and with room for failure without meaningfully impacting the casual experience. Dungeons and normals are so incredibly easy that you can play like complete crap and still clear without issues - this is a *good* thing, but the problem is they're acting like they need to dumb everything down so that these casual players (who are not and never have been doing proper rotations, proper gearing, etc to begin with) won't get upset.

    But if we're going to base the game around the "casual experience," I want them to stop wasting work-hours on hardcore content and focus purely on the casual experience. Bring back our class fantasy, and let raid balance be damned. Where's our Haste and Slow and Stop spells? Why aren't White Mages obliterating undead? Why can't we have elemental weaknesses and strengths? All of these things were sacrificed on the altar of "hardcore gameplay balance," yet they're doing a half-assed job of creating a game that provides for "hardcore" players.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    You really *can't* delay in XIV on a personal level, not in EW, because DPS checks and the entire game is designed around all 8 players popping off at the same time. You might have *the entire raid group* delay because someone died or because it would make more sense to delay 20 seconds for a better burst window, but you won't see people doing this on a personal, individual level because that will just mean their DPS is tanked for the rest of the pull due to being desynced from the raid buffs.

    And if Abyssos is anything to go by, "delaying to wait for a better window" isn't really a thing since they've also apparently begun designing the fights themselves around these 2 minute windows. It's not a coincidence that "boss needs to take a breather" sections tend to closely align with a 120 second counter.#
    Oh, I was just saying hypothetical, you wouldn't be the only one delaying your cooldowns since they are synched to leech of from each other.
    Just like how PI is.
    As for the time window for cooldowns, that has been a thing since SHB at the very least, I just can't remember the stuff before it.
    At most you delay like 5 seconds or whatever to get into the "breather". It's not something they did start in EW...



    The majority of the playerbase doesn't even maintain 90% GCD uptime in dungeons and normals and certainly doesn't perform a proper rotation. So who the fuck cares what the "majority of the playerbase" cares about? These players weren't doing proper rotations or positionals previously, so who is the change even for?
    For exactly those players? How the heck did you not realize that.



    Put bluntly, it sounds like you are not playing at anywhere near the level where this kind of stuff has ever been relevant for you. You aren't going to notice removed opportunities for "skill expression" or whatever, if you weren't already performing at that level previously - you will literally not know what you're missing.
    Dunno, I clear savage every tier, my parses are acceptable as well, even orange sometimes, in FFXIV that hardly means anything though due to itemlevel.
    In WoW I was in a top 15 guild in my country and top 100 Worldwide (give or take a few places)... long has it been, I have pretty much all the server first titles you can think off and I'm still playing that exact toon, content certainly changed and got more intense in that game. But it's silly to assume I'm a worse player just because I don't agree with your takes.
    It's not worth anything this season or maybe not even the last, but I do M+20+ as well, people do know what to use and what a class brings at that level, even if I'm not doing the insane shit at +++25s. But +20 still was like.... I don't know.. top 3% last season? So Basically 97% of the players had a worse rating?

    I played a lot of Warrior in ShB, for example, and I fucking *despise* what they did to the class in EW. It was already the simplest tank, but they removed literally all of the class-specific things that allowed for optimization (or, rather, they removed the things that weaker players would fuck up and therefore lose DPS on), and as a result it feels fucking *awful* to play in EW. But for players who weren't playing at that optimized level, they don't notice the missing components and as a result they fucking *LOVE* "new" Warrior.
    Yes, exactly my point, they made the stuff that could massivley fuck up the play less potent. Most things are still intact though.
    I don't think I enjoyed buffs dependent on positionals for even a second, for example.
    I don't think I enjoyed losing 70% of my potency when attacking from the wrong side either.
    Having 2 stacks of my finisher and combo builder as SAM is enjoyable.
    In fact it's actually enhancing your min-max potential because you can actually adjust shit better now and aren't forever punished by losing out a finisher once. So it goes both ways as well.


    Incidentally, this is why I really think Square-Enix need to get their shit together and decide if they actually want "hardcore" content or not. Because if we're going to be designing the game for players that don't exist and sacrificing work-hours that could be going towards more casual theme park content (which I really enjoy, don't take this as me hating on it), then I need them to understand that they can make classes a lot more complex and with room for failure without meaningfully impacting the casual experience. Dungeons and normals are so incredibly easy that you can play like complete crap and still clear without issues - this is a *good* thing, but the problem is they're acting like they need to dumb everything down so that these casual players (who are not and never have been doing proper rotations, proper gearing, etc to begin with) won't get upset.
    No such thing as a "hardcore game" in FFXIV, once again that's my point. Doing rotations properly hardly falls into that category though.
    Savage is clearable by literal clickers.
    I did E12S with *clickers* that parsed purple and orange (not the type that clicks cooldowns btw, the type that clicks their rotations), what the heck do you think is the hardcore crowd doing in this game? It's not hardcore. The game is over in less than 2 weeks for the "Hardcore crowd."

    But if we're going to base the game around the "casual experience," I want them to stop wasting work-hours on hardcore content and focus purely on the casual experience. Bring back our class fantasy, and let raid balance be damned. Where's our Haste and Slow and Stop spells? Why aren't White Mages obliterating undead? Why can't we have elemental weaknesses and strengths? All of these things were sacrificed on the altar of "hardcore gameplay balance," yet they're doing a half-assed job of creating a game that provides for "hardcore" players.
    Once again, Savage is hardly something worth calling hardcore content. Most people doing it outgear it and that is that.
    It's still fun though and every class should be allowed to do this content. Elemental weaknesses and strength. Come on.... if you want to play WoW Classic, you should play WoW classic. It's simply not good design for the majority of stuff you are doing. Dealing less damage just because is not fun. That's about it.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-09-28 at 09:51 PM.

  19. #139
    "You're not a skill level where this is relevant for you" just for disagreeing about a subjective hot take by somebody already stating untrue and unsourced things is a certainly a way to go about convincing people.

  20. #140
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlette View Post
    Best part of this Final Fantasy 14 subforum is now how you just have burner accounts dishonestly shitting on the game while propping up Warcraft.
    Quoted for truth... While also noting the high probability of this poster being a burner account.
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

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