FFXIV Criticisms

[KrayZ33]

These players never noticed they were losing Raiden Thrust because they weren't doing positionals. Or, when they did get a Raiden Thrust, they didn't really understand why they did, or may even not have noticed that they got Raiden Thrust instead of the standard opener for DRG. I think it's important to understand, the average player in almost any video game is *fucking awful*. To paraphrase Carlin, think of the worst player you've encountered, and then understand that half of all players are worse than they are.

I would have to look at the stats again but I remember that at least 20% of the maxlevel characters *clear* savage. (even more do X1S or X2S)
In these 20% there are players that are quite bad and those that are quite good.
The goal is to get the bad players to be less of a hindrance and thus people that are good or at least average actually have a chance to beat content with bad players. When that dude gets to have his buffs rolling even though he missed the positional alongside other stuff, his DPS will not be 3000 DPS at the end, but 5000, yet not 7000.
Meanwhile the "pro" will still see a difference in DPS when he does everything properly. At the same time even the "pro's" performance will not tank just because he made one or two mistakes and lost an important buff, such as DRG losing... what's it called... I don't want to look it up... "dragon boy form"-whatever and such.

[Necromantic]

Do I believe every word out of YoshiP's mouth? Absolutely not, but do I believe him over the word of some random poster with no source and misinformation? Yes..

Being FFXIV, I will agree with you. If you were talking Blizzard, I would disagree as myself and others I've seen have proven Blues to be incorrect though to be fair, Blues are lower on the totem pole than the main dev.

No such thing as a "hardcore game" in FFXIV

This isn't necessarily true. The term "hardcore" in most games is very subjective. In Diablo, it's explicit. I've known players who play a game nearly all day long every day, do the most intense content and call themselves "very casual". I've known people who play very little and accomplish little but call themselves hardcore. The former are usually people trying to downplay things to make others feel inept but the point stands that there is no clear definition.

I've seen people claim the same as you... that some harder content was completed by clickers, etc and others have rebuted that those claims are made up.

Unfortunately, for an MMO to be sustainable, you're going to need both audiences. Walking that line is the central conflict in MMO design.

Correct. While it sounds bad to say out loud, there are far more lackadaisical players than there are those of the opposite side of the spectrum. I give credit where credit is due and both MMOs have done well to accommodate to both ends. I do think FFXIV does this a little better since M+ has the reputation of being a lot more gated but raid finders open doors for all styles. This is where games like Destiny fall short.

I would disagree - the casual crowd tends to dwarf the more hardcore set, and that's pretty much down to barriers to entry and the staggered existence of what it means to be hardcore (where the "edge" is ever upward and onward). Wildstar's failure is pretty much down to courting a tiny subset of its possible audience - catering to the casual crowd will usually net you more perennial subscribers as long as the content itself is good and remains good.

I hope you're not actually trying to say that there are less casual players than hardcore players because that's completely untrue.

These players never noticed they were losing Raiden Thrust because they weren't doing positionals. Or, when they did get a Raiden Thrust, they didn't really understand why they did, or may even not have noticed that they got Raiden Thrust instead of the standard opener for DRG. I think it's important to understand, the average player in almost any video game is *fucking awful*. To paraphrase Carlin, think of the worst player you've encountered, and then understand that half of all players are worse than they are.

Case in point. I hate to use that same term you did as it sounds very condescending. I prefer to use lax or incompetent. Incompetent sometimes sounds condescending but it does not mean they're incapable. It just means they're not at the standard level they should be whether from some entity gating them, training, physical constraint, or comfort level.

[Thoriangun]

It just seems absolutely ridiculous because they act as if FF14 players are brigading their forums to shit on their game.

And sure, as I lurked and watched during Summer 2021, maybe some spurned WoW fans mentioned FF14, it was never this level of weird cringe tryhardiness insisting that every aspect of FF14 is superior to WoW, and yet people like Grinning Serpent and Ghost of Cow are SO obviously just burner accounts of WoW fanboys butthurt people might find another game superior in certain aspects and the mods just don't do anything about it. OH and that Relapses dude who spends 80% of his time shitting on anybody daring to criticize WoW, even if they don't mention FF14.

FF14 players seem, by and large (And of course there's a random weirdo outlier), enjoying Endwalker and 6.2, but Warcraft players, while they should be enjoying Dragonflight's Beta I guess? Are instead just raging against the fact th people are criticizing DF like they have been for SL AND BfA because Blizzard, by and large, seem to not have changed nearly as much as they promised.

I don't know. If your game is doing so well, you wouldn't be shitposting on an alt burner account on its main competitor's subforum. That reveals what they TRULY feel more than anything else. Just play your dragon game and indulge in how amazing it is according to how you're acting.

I know the mods get butthurt when you bring up their lack of moderation, but this subforum especially is particularly bad in this regard. Where anti-FF14 trolls run rampant with no punishment but if you push back against them, it seems like you're the one punished instead. Sorry if that offends them I guess?

I love players like you, as I have been playing FF14 since the release of 1.0, yes that far back and still play it to this date and I find my self criticising FF14 more then WoW, the playerbase in FF14 are the worst in terms of actual engagement, has the most toxic casual playerbase ever which has led to the culling of actual PVE content in the game because SE actually states officially there is a skill gap in the game and its huge.

So big in fact, they scaled back what PVE content they will add cos the playerbase is garbage.

[KrayZ33]

This isn't necessarily true. The term "hardcore" in most games is very subjective. In Diablo, it's explicit. I've known players who play a game nearly all day long every day, do the most intense content and call themselves "very casual". I've known people who play very little and accomplish little but call themselves hardcore. The former are usually people trying to downplay things to make others feel inept but the point stands that there is no clear definition.

I've seen people claim the same as you... that some harder content was completed by clickers, etc and others have rebuted that those claims are made up.

I think the discussion gave away what is and was meant here more than enough. The DPS requirements are usually not at their limits and gear is accessible to overcome even that some weeks later. So even if you don't meet the DPS check in X1S, you will after a few weeks with new currency gear.
And it's designed for controler controls as well...


As for the clickers, I can't help it when some people don't believe it. 2 of the people who I'm playing with said so themselves and I have no reason to not believe them because it wasn't mentioned in any context that would somehow portrait them in a better/different light. In fact, it was actually the opposite, because we (the others) noticed some things happening whenever movement is required alongside certain other things at the same time. We joked about after wards and then the discussion about it was already irrelevant, because it's as I said, it's not like this game requires you to handle everything properly.

People that sweat over this are "hardcore", the content they have to clear and the goal they have in this game lasts them... maybe 1-4 weeks. (just to clarify, that's not a EW thing but has always been the case)
Savage isn't just designed for them. It's also for people like me who just enjoy playing this with other people, even if it takes 2-3 months or even until the next tier drops. I still think the amount of characters that are "split farmig" out of those 20-30% that clear savage every tier is rather small.
So Savage is something a big part of the community enjoys doing and when you make it easier, you might lose the sweat-boyz, but probably gain the same amount of players and interest them for that content.

I hope you're not actually trying to say that there are less casual players than hardcore players because that's completely untrue.

Read his post again.

[Aucald]

I hope you're not actually trying to say that there are less casual players than hardcore players because that's completely untrue.

No, I'm saying precisely the opposite - the casual crowd is much larger than the hardcore one because the hardcore crowd has many barriers to entry and escalating drop-off as the definition of "hardcore" becomes more and more rarified the older a game is.

[Necromantic]

I love players like you, as I have been playing FF14 since the release of 1.0, yes that far back and still play it to this date and I find my self criticising FF14 more then WoW, the playerbase in FF14 are the worst in terms of actual engagement, has the most toxic casual playerbase ever which has led to the culling of actual PVE content in the game because SE actually states officially there is a skill gap in the game and its huge.

So big in fact, they scaled back what PVE content they will add cos the playerbase is garbage.

As someone who has played both MMOs since they were released, I have to agree with you. I've read so many "FFXIV has the better community posts" and I knew they were either parroting what they've read others say, winding people up or just "new and shiny" players. Both games have pros and cons but FFXIV's community is overall unsatisfactory. One of my biggest peeves is seeing new/returning players get berated. I mentioned this in my comparison post in another recent thread. Granted, not every person or encounter is bad... that would be disingenuous. It's just at a level where you have to nearly walk on eggshells.

I think the discussion gave away what is and was meant here more than enough. The DPS requirements are usually not at their limits and gear is accessible to overcome even that some weeks later. So even if you don't meet the DPS check in X1S, you will after a few weeks with new currency gear.
And it's designed for controler controls as well...

That's assuming every person plays in a controlled and static environment. Meeting or exceeding a requirement in an MMO is a a slippery slope. I've raided in several MMOs with several different types of groups. There are so many variables in this context. I've played with people who were essentially "carried" because they were the leader's friends who only show up at the beginning of a content patch and demand a spot in the raid to people who are just naturally better than others.

No, I'm saying precisely the opposite - the casual crowd is much larger than the hardcore one because the hardcore crowd has many barriers to entry and escalating drop-off as the definition of "hardcore" becomes more and more rarified the older a game is.

The "casual crowd dwarfs" lead to another conclusion. But again, the terms "casual" and "hardcore" are a never-ending debate outside of Diablo.

[Aucald]

The "casual crowd dwarfs" lead to another conclusion. But again, the terms "casual" and "hardcore" are a never-ending debate outside of Diablo.

Not referring to the casual crowd as "dwarfs," I'm saying they collectively dwarf the hardcore crowd - in this case, the casual crowd's size makes the hardcore one appear small and unimportant by contrast.

[Necromantic]

Not referring to the casual crowd as "dwarfs," I'm saying they collectively dwarf the hardcore crowd - in this case, the casual crowd's size makes the hardcore one appear small and unimportant by contrast.

Ok that makes sense and you are correct. I didn't think you meant casuals were dwarfs. I thought you were saying the opposite of what you did mean.

It wouldn't be the first time I've heard someone say that and actually mean it. I don't know of any game where that would even be true.

[Aucald]

Ok that makes sense and you are correct. I didn't think you meant casuals were dwarfs. I thought you were saying the opposite of what you did mean.

It wouldn't be the first time I've heard someone say that and actually mean it. I don't know of any game where that would even be true.

The "Souls" games (e.g. Dark Souls and its sequels) and games based on their methodology like Sekiro would be the only examples I can readily think of - where the design of the game itself is a barrier to entry, as they're meant to be hardcore and cater to hardcore players.

[Arlette]

The "Souls" games (e.g. Dark Souls and its sequels) and games based on their methodology like Sekiro would be the only examples I can readily think of - where the design of the game itself is a barrier to entry, as they're meant to be hardcore and cater to hardcore players.

And yet even they, FromSoftware, realized that catering to .05% of its playerbase is stupid and made Elden Ring much more accessible by allowing far more valid combos of gameplay types than their previous games.

ALMOST like trying to cater to a few thousand people at the expense of potentially millions is asinine.

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I love players like you, as I have been playing FF14 since the release of 1.0, yes that far back and still play it to this date and I find my self criticising FF14 more then WoW, the playerbase in FF14 are the worst in terms of actual engagement, has the most toxic casual playerbase ever which has led to the culling of actual PVE content in the game because SE actually states officially there is a skill gap in the game and its huge.

So big in fact, they scaled back what PVE content they will add cos the playerbase is garbage.

You can just admit you like one game more than another, you know right?

You don't have to couch your nonsense in lies. Everybody knows what you actually are. The smokescreen is pointless.

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Granted, not every person or encounter is bad... that would be disingenuous. It's just at a level where you have to nearly walk on eggshells.

Quite literally every single person I've ever seen say this are just upset they can't be toxic assholes to people and use slurs like they do unpunished in WoW.

So good on you for at least exposing yourself.

[Necromantic]

And yet even they, FromSoftware, realized that catering to .05% of its playerbase is stupid and made Elden Ring much more accessible by allowing far more valid combos of gameplay types than their previous games.

ALMOST like trying to cater to a few thousand people at the expense of potentially millions is asinine.

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You can just admit you like one game more than another, you know right?

You don't have to couch your nonsense in lies.

I think more clear warnings would be helpful to prevent a player from buying a game intended to be hard and going "whow wait... wtf?" but on the flip side, the game maker just wants money... make changes later.

I don't understand why difficulty levels were not enough. If you're one of more "tougher" players, crank that bitch up! They've worked for decades.

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Quite literally every single person I've ever seen say this are just upset they can't be toxic assholes to people and use slurs like they do unpunished in WoW.

So good on you for at least exposing yourself.

I've never seen anyone go punished in either game for doing it. It's just a lot more prominent in XIV.

What do you mean exposing?

[Arlette]

I've never seen anyone go punished in either game for doing it. It's just a lot more prominent in XIV.

What do you mean exposing?

Uh huh. I'm sure.

Again you could just not lie and say you like one game over another.

It's not hard and its actually a valid argument.

But y'all act exactly the same. Every single time. And say the exact same bullshit. Every single time. lol

[Soikona]

I remember when we killed the final boss by flying up in the air and releasing a massive kamehameha blast in his face.

It’s stuff like that why I can’t play it lol I just can’t get pass the weeb art and story. Everything else is fantastic. Love the gameplay, dungeons, mechanics, currencies etc

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I love players like you, as I have been playing FF14 since the release of 1.0, yes that far back and still play it to this date and I find my self criticising FF14 more then WoW, the playerbase in FF14 are the worst in terms of actual engagement, has the most toxic casual playerbase ever which has led to the culling of actual PVE content in the game because SE actually states officially there is a skill gap in the game and its huge.

So big in fact, they scaled back what PVE content they will add cos the playerbase is garbage.

I wouldn’t say garbage, more sensitive. It’s very easy to get banned for a misunderstanding. And with text, it can be very hard to read the tune at times, especially with poor punctuation and grammar.

[Necromantic]

Uh huh. I'm sure.

Again you could just not lie and say you like one game over another.

It's not hard and its actually a valid argument.

But y'all act exactly the same. Every single time. And say the exact same bullshit. Every single time. lol

You're sure about what?

What do you think I'm lying about?

What is a valid argument?

Who is "y'all?" What bullshit?

[Thoriangun]

You can just admit you like one game more than another, you know right?

You don't have to couch your nonsense in lies. Everybody knows what you actually are. The smokescreen is pointless.

I like how people think I lie when I point this out, denial much?

Does it sting you so much that a long term player in FF14 much more then 99% of this forum has so much criticism of FF14, I have my issues with WoW but at least thats just the devs being idiots in their direction.

FF14 issues is fuelled by its playerbase which has led to the irate game designs we have.

I play both games among a few other mmos, all have their ups and downs, but FF14 playerbase is the worst of the lot, transparent it is not.

I consider the players that are begrudged from WoW raiding esp that are in FF14 just like FF14 cos of its TOS that protects them and parrots the game as better due to it, its like they treat WoW like that abusive ex.

[Aucald]

I play both games among a few other mmos, all have their ups and downs, but FF14 playerbase is the worst of the lot, transparent it is not.

What exactly is wrong with the FF14 playerbase? I play both WoW and FF14 pretty routinely, and I have to say that at least anecdotally I've almost never encountered an issue with other FF14 players, whereas my history with WoW is a lot more checkered in terms of encountering problem players - ranging from "go go go" syndrome to people who pathologically duck responsibility for poor performance. I also appreciate FF14's lack of dependence on meters in end-game content, without making everything an internal competition as opposed to a genuine team effort to overcome obstacles. In FF14 I feel a lot more like a member of a given group than I do in WoW unless I'm running with guildmates where the camaraderie is a given.

[Arlette]

Almost like the person is a dishonest liar huh.

I don't even have any particular attachment to the 14 community. I couldn't care less if it was more or less toxic on a personal level.

But it's just so absolutely hilarious to see some guy claiming that WARCRAFT is the better community when everybody and their mother knows that community is toxic as hell.

Once more I go to the fact that people who act like that individual are just upset that they can't get away with spamming slurs at people and pretend that's a fault of a game rather than a benefit.

[Necromantic]

What exactly is wrong with the FF14 playerbase? I play both WoW and FF14 pretty routinely, and I have to say that at least anecdotally I've almost never encountered an issue with other FF14 players, whereas my history with WoW is a lot more checkered in terms of encountering problem players - ranging from "go go go" syndrome to people who pathologically duck responsibility for poor performance. I also appreciate FF14's lack of dependence on meters in end-game content, without making everything an internal competition as opposed to a genuine team effort to overcome obstacles. In FF14 I feel a lot more like a member of a given group than I do in WoW unless I'm running with guildmates where the camaraderie is a given.

As someone who has played both games since they were released and has a lot of experience in all levels of content (so my sample size is not small), the FFXIV playerbase is in the top 3 of all games I've ever played for the most unwelcoming community and treatment of players. So much passive aggressiveness, berating, death threats, and drama. Any time I see someone complain about this in WoW, I think "man... you've seen nothing yet". These are exacerbated on the official forums and reddit. The only places I've ever seen question this were here and on 1 of the Discords I participate in.

[Arlette]

As someone who has played both games since they were released and has a lot of experience in all levels of content (so my sample size is not small), the FFXIV playerbase is in the top 3 of all games I've ever played for the most unwelcoming community and treatment of players. So much passive aggressiveness, berating, death threats, and drama. Any time I see someone complain about this in WoW, I think "man... you've seen nothing yet". These are exacerbated on the official forums and reddit. The only places I've ever seen question this were here and on 1 of the Discords I participate in.

I too enjoy lying with literally no evidence to support my claims.

[The Casualty]

As someone who has played both games since they were released and has a lot of experience in all levels of content (so my sample size is not small), the FFXIV playerbase is in the top 3 of all games I've ever played for the most unwelcoming community and treatment of players. So much passive aggressiveness, berating, death threats, and drama. Any time I see someone complain about this in WoW, I think "man... you've seen nothing yet". These are exacerbated on the official forums and reddit. The only places I've ever seen question this were here and on 1 of the Discords I participate in.

I think both games have their microcosms of communities like guilds or FCs that can be full of drama. Maybe I'm lucky, but in both games I was able to find a decent population of people to hang out with and spend years playing games with, and in general I view both communities positively.

I will say though that in general interaction with random people in each game world however, my experience is the exact opposite of yours. Only one game had boomer levels of racist ranting in general chat channels (or whatever is equivalent per game), and it was not FFXIV.