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  1. #1
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
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    My feedback as a returning player, first time in Taz`Avesh

    So, I just came back to the game because of what people are saying about Dragonflight. I hear people calling Taz'avesh a modern Karazhan, which got me interested as someone who isn't into the m+ scene.

    I was queuing for heroic dungeons to get geared enough to run Kara, TazAvesh (spelling) and raids. I don't have fun at all in rushy, easy dungeons but I have to gear up some how, right? Similarly, LFR feels so watered down that it's about as much of a pain. I wanted to try out Taz`avesh so I had to do these things.

    Brace for impact, queue for looking for slow torture.

    One of the first dungeons I get as I return is... TAZ`AVESH. In the heroic pool. The Tank pulls non-stop, myself and 2 other guys have no clue what we're doing, there are zillions of things happeening on screen but nothing needs to be explained, nothing needs to be figured out. I die, sometimes, the other 2 dps die at other times. We NEVER wipe. I'm left with a very, VERY underwhelming first time experience, of something quick, totally unsatisfying and forgettable. Is this how most girls feel?

    As an old player who really likes raiding, loves Karazhan, Zul'Aman and the likes and can't get into m+, this is something I was looking for and my first contact with it was shattered by the watered down version of it being in the heroic pool.

    My feelings are that they should have kept Taz`a Vesh as a mythic only dungeon that's not meant to be added into any m+ or heroic LFG rotation. Keep it hard, keep it rewarding.

    Follow Dark Souls type of gameplay - Easy but very punishing. Versus Complex but very lenient.

    My 2 cents anyway as someone who was very excited to run the proper version of that dungeon :/ Even as a returning player

  2. #2
    Taz in 9.1 was what you were looking for, but sadly it didn't match the gearing rythm of the rest of the game. We all played it once on normal mythic, once on hard modes, and then left it until it got added to LFD and M+ in 9.2

    However, Taz in M+ is awesome. But you probably need to find a team to do it at your own level, either in normal mythic or in M+. If you jump into pugs you'll probably be expected to already know your way around

  3. #3
    When returning at the end of an expansion it's not easy to find people that haven't done the dungeon a million times.
    Raid encounters will always have lots of similar elements so long as there's an underlying guideline that DPS must always be pumping 100%.

  4. #4
    Play it in season 2 then?
    Heroic versions of the megadungeons always come at the same time they're split up for m+, i.e. 1 season after they're initially introduced.
    They did the same thing with Return to Karazhan and Mechagon.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    My feelings are that they should have kept Taz`a Vesh as a mythic only dungeon that's not meant to be added into any m+ or heroic LFG rotation.
    it was mythic only (with hard mode, "normal" mythic wasnt really hard back then either) when it was CURRENT CONTENT, now it is not...
    if you now run Zul'aman or "normal" version of Karazhan your experience will not be much either, even if its first time...
    but thats pretty much how wow has been since begining, when you went to wailing caverns as lvl 60 in vanila to help some low lvl friend it was not as interesting as when you went there as lvl 20...

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    So, I just came back to the game because of what people are saying about Dragonflight. I hear people calling Taz'avesh a modern Karazhan, which got me interested as someone who isn't into the m+ scene.

    I was queuing for heroic dungeons to get geared enough to run Kara, TazAvesh (spelling) and raids. I don't have fun at all in rushy, easy dungeons but I have to gear up some how, right? Similarly, LFR feels so watered down that it's about as much of a pain. I wanted to try out Taz`avesh so I had to do these things.

    Brace for impact, queue for looking for slow torture.

    One of the first dungeons I get as I return is... TAZ`AVESH. In the heroic pool. The Tank pulls non-stop, myself and 2 other guys have no clue what we're doing, there are zillions of things happeening on screen but nothing needs to be explained, nothing needs to be figured out. I die, sometimes, the other 2 dps die at other times. We NEVER wipe. I'm left with a very, VERY underwhelming first time experience, of something quick, totally unsatisfying and forgettable. Is this how most girls feel?

    As an old player who really likes raiding, loves Karazhan, Zul'Aman and the likes and can't get into m+, this is something I was looking for and my first contact with it was shattered by the watered down version of it being in the heroic pool.

    My feelings are that they should have kept Taz`a Vesh as a mythic only dungeon that's not meant to be added into any m+ or heroic LFG rotation. Keep it hard, keep it rewarding.

    Follow Dark Souls type of gameplay - Easy but very punishing. Versus Complex but very lenient.

    My 2 cents anyway as someone who was very excited to run the proper version of that dungeon :/ Even as a returning player
    Taz was a great mega-dungeon and it's also a great M+ dungeon (well, two). Very popular.

    The trouble is just that you are really late to the party. this is actually why it's good that the dungeons in DF are going to rotate every season to help mitigate the inevitable problems of returning players feeling like they are missing literal years of meta knowledge.

    I'm left with a very, VERY underwhelming first time experience, of something quick, totally unsatisfying and forgettable. Is this how most girls feel?
    But also yes

  7. #7
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
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    I understand there are multiple ways a knowledgeable player can get around the feeling of a dungeon / raid being washed out or underwhelming. But the vast majority of returning players or new players won't be knowledgeable. They'll log in and play and experience the game by playing it - albeit googling an optimal build or two. Hell, the absolute vast majority of returning players won't even be using MMO champion, which is a population already askewed by players that are still actively involved and somewhat up-to-date with WoW.

    If most new/returning players won't know how to get around that problem, it seems to me it's a design problem.



    That is, of course, if a lot of new/returning players also dislike a washed out easy experience. We won't know that. This is just one person's feedback.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post

    But also yes
    Guess I gotta apologise to my first lol

  8. #8
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    /snip
    Honest question, have you given FF 14 a chance? I retired as a dedicated raider and as much as I want to return to it, I really would rather just enjoy FF 14 when I want to play it. I know it has a pretty good scene for dedicated raiders though and has plenty of tough content. When you're running a dungeon, "trial", or raid in FF for the first time, it announces to the group that at least one *someone* is running it for the first time. It doesn't out you. Most people will say "hey, it's my first time" and that lets the rest of the party know to be ready to discuss fights, especially in more difficult content. This has been my experience. I hope if you have not tried 14, this will encourage you to do so. If you're truly looking for more DS type gameplay though, that can be very difficult to find in MMOs, period. Since they're multiplayer. But really you have two main MMO options right now with some smaller, less successful options, also. FF 14 is also great for the story elements, if you care about those at all.
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    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  9. #9
    if your looking for slow methodical gameplay, that doesnt exist in wow any more, part of the reason i don't play properly anymore

  10. #10
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yinyatto View Post
    if your looking for slow methodical gameplay, that doesnt exist in wow any more, part of the reason i don't play properly anymore
    I'm hoping they'll take some of the positive feedback of the success of the classic experience to apply to Retail and let us have some of that slow methodical gameplay back for those of us who like it.

    We're not asking for the ADHD gameplay to go away, just to have an alternative path back that used to be the norm. We don't ask for much, just raids and some hard, slow, methodical dungeons along with professions and some open world warcraft-like quests.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    Honest question, have you given FF 14 a chance? I retired as a dedicated raider and as much as I want to return to it, I really would rather just enjoy FF 14 when I want to play it. I know it has a pretty good scene for dedicated raiders though and has plenty of tough content. When you're running a dungeon, "trial", or raid in FF for the first time, it announces to the group that at least one *someone* is running it for the first time. It doesn't out you. Most people will say "hey, it's my first time" and that lets the rest of the party know to be ready to discuss fights, especially in more difficult content. This has been my experience. I hope if you have not tried 14, this will encourage you to do so. If you're truly looking for more DS type gameplay though, that can be very difficult to find in MMOs, period. Since they're multiplayer. But really you have two main MMO options right now with some smaller, less successful options, also. FF 14 is also great for the story elements, if you care about those at all.
    Man I wish it appealed to me. Honestly, I do. I've tried at least 3 times, but I'm not a fan of the aesthetics or how many of the abilities look/sound like those rock band arcade type games.

    I know I'm missing out though, they say the story is incredible.

  11. #11
    It's not explicit at all in the game but to get the feeling you were looking for you need to build your own group with friends and people sharing the same goal as you are and go yhere in mythic difficulty whatever you ilvl.

    Take the time you need to discover the place etc.

    Using LFG tools will only put you with people that don't have the luxury of taking the time to enjoy the scenery and talk to the group. The LFG tool is a dead tool imo, it should only be usable for leveling purposes or to acquire collectibles. Anyway you can still have fun there, you just need an afternoon, the right friends and to go there in mythic difficulty and try and fight each fight in hard mode when doable.

  12. #12
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    It's not explicit at all in the game but to get the feeling you were looking for you need to build your own group with friends and people sharing the same goal as you are and go yhere in mythic difficulty whatever you ilvl.

    Take the time you need to discover the place etc.

    Using LFG tools will only put you with people that don't have the luxury of taking the time to enjoy the scenery and talk to the group. The LFG tool is a dead tool imo, it should only be usable for leveling purposes or to acquire collectibles. Anyway you can still have fun there, you just need an afternoon, the right friends and to go there in mythic difficulty and try and fight each fight in hard mode when doable.
    That's a fair point. I'm going to try to find a guild to learn these dungeons with.

    I still feel like mega dungeons should not be added to an m+ rotation and be kept as mega dungeons only. But definitely doing something with like minded people will make my experience better. Thanks

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    What returning and new players need to understand is; Blizzard doesn't give a shit about your experience, its all about the end-game and more specifically the end-game for GOOD players because if you're not good they don't give a shit about you either.

    The only sound advice is make your own group, preferably with friends then you can horse around and do it at your own pace but thats not realistic for everybody and some people are just left by themselves after all their friends quit for reasons above.

    I doubt Dragonflight will be any different with the same people at the top, they have their priorities and casual gameplay (i.e. people that don't give a damn if they're good or not) are not it. You're better off looking for that kind of fun in another game, it's really not part of WoW anymore.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    So, I just came back to the game because of what people are saying about Dragonflight. I hear people calling Taz'avesh a modern Karazhan, which got me interested as someone who isn't into the m+ scene.

    I was queuing for heroic dungeons to get geared enough to run Kara, TazAvesh (spelling) and raids. I don't have fun at all in rushy, easy dungeons but I have to gear up some how, right? Similarly, LFR feels so watered down that it's about as much of a pain. I wanted to try out Taz`avesh so I had to do these things.

    Brace for impact, queue for looking for slow torture.

    One of the first dungeons I get as I return is... TAZ`AVESH. In the heroic pool. The Tank pulls non-stop, myself and 2 other guys have no clue what we're doing, there are zillions of things happeening on screen but nothing needs to be explained, nothing needs to be figured out. I die, sometimes, the other 2 dps die at other times. We NEVER wipe. I'm left with a very, VERY underwhelming first time experience, of something quick, totally unsatisfying and forgettable. Is this how most girls feel?

    As an old player who really likes raiding, loves Karazhan, Zul'Aman and the likes and can't get into m+, this is something I was looking for and my first contact with it was shattered by the watered down version of it being in the heroic pool.

    My feelings are that they should have kept Taz`a Vesh as a mythic only dungeon that's not meant to be added into any m+ or heroic LFG rotation. Keep it hard, keep it rewarding.

    Follow Dark Souls type of gameplay - Easy but very punishing. Versus Complex but very lenient.

    My 2 cents anyway as someone who was very excited to run the proper version of that dungeon :/ Even as a returning player
    Well the issue with Dark Souls is that tedium and difficulty are not easy to separate or distinguish - even Dark Souls fails at it plenty of times.

    Hence the "easier" mode of just adding a comparison tool in the form of m+ levels, timers, ratings and other shenanigans.
    I do agrer that it leads to far worse products, but it's caused by a desire for fairness in loot sources, and the endless whining of it, enhanced by greater group sizes. The bigger the group, the more entitled they feel to loot.

    So a "small" megadungeon still needs that atrocious m+ system forced upon it to be allowed to exist as a viable source of alternate loot.

    And still the raiders whine about it being too easy or about being forced to do it.

    So yeah i do agree: Keep it slow, challenging, 1 week lockout, and stop giving in to the entitled raiders' attitudes.
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  15. #15
    Warchief Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yinyatto View Post
    if your looking for slow methodical gameplay, that doesnt exist in wow any more, part of the reason i don't play properly anymore
    No it exists... Just not in random PuGs or LFD/LFR. Find other players with similar interests and party up with them. Start your own group in group finder and list it as a "learning" group. Also when folks ask to join, question them and make sure they are OK with a learning group that is going to go slower. Maybe put a requirement that they have to be on voice comms (no mic necessary) so they can understand that if there's a delay between pulls, it's because someone is explaining something over comms hence the delay.

    The tools are in-game, players just have to use them.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    What returning and new players need to understand is; Blizzard doesn't give a shit about your experience, its all about the end-game and more specifically the end-game for GOOD players because if you're not good they don't give a shit about you either.

    The only sound advice is make your own group, preferably with friends then you can horse around and do it at your own pace but thats not realistic for everybody and some people are just left by themselves after all their friends quit for reasons above.

    I doubt Dragonflight will be any different with the same people at the top, they have their priorities and casual gameplay (i.e. people that don't give a damn if they're good or not) are not it. You're better off looking for that kind of fun in another game, it's really not part of WoW anymore.
    Sadly this is the truth and why FF14 has been scooping up all the casual players who quit WoW.

    The current team at Blizzard either don't understand or don't care that designing the game from the top down instead of the bottom up is driving the majority of potential customers away.

  17. #17
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    No it exists... Just not in random PuGs or LFD/LFR. Find other players with similar interests and party up with them. Start your own group in group finder and list it as a "learning" group. Also when folks ask to join, question them and make sure they are OK with a learning group that is going to go slower. Maybe put a requirement that they have to be on voice comms (no mic necessary) so they can understand that if there's a delay between pulls, it's because someone is explaining something over comms hence the delay.

    The tools are in-game, players just have to use them.
    That's definitely a good idea. Will try that after classic wrath dies out since the fresh servers open today. However, there's an issue with the thought: "The tools are in-game, players just have to use them".

    I'm a senior software engineer at a big company. In one of our projects we use a library we maintain ourselves that is used in most of the features that come out of this project. This library is very confusing in the sense that there is no documentation for it or code organization that would lead to any guidance as to its intended use. As a result most newer developers that are tasked to change something that touches parts of the application where this library is used report it to be a very difficult task. One of them recently called my boss to tell him he's very frustrated to work in the project he's working and is considering to switch teams. Because of that library. This week I was finally tasked with rewriting it to make it user friendly (where the users in this case are us, developers) and I noticed the library works perfectly if we use a single function, buried under a lot of confusing code to update all its state. I'm sure if someone would tell the original developer that the library was hard to use he would claim:

    "No it isn't, I made it to be easy. You just have to use this one function instead of trying all these workarounds and alternative ways to update the state!"

    And he would be right! Except, of course, that it would be easy for him, that already knew the optimal way to use his software. Someone who landed on it, without guidance or documentation would have a tough time navigating to the intended usage on their own. Especially if they were not experienced.

    If your users don't get to the intended usage of your software on their own in my experience it's one of two things:

    1 - Not intended.
    2 - A design problem.
    Last edited by Tiev; 2022-08-30 at 12:18 PM.

  18. #18
    Tazavesh*

    I don't know what you expect.
    You went into LFD heroic and expected a challenge? Mate, really. M+ exists for a reason.

    What is a "slow and methodical" gameplay anyway? Are you referring to Classic dungeon gameplay?
    Yea, very 'methodical' that is.
    Waiting 10 minutes between each pull so you can sit down and drink mana. Very methodical. Mobs do basically nothing and you don't even have a rotation to press.
    Doing dungeons is one of the most boring things to do in Classic WoW. And you want that in modern M+... these players man... don't even play the game and demand the worst changes as usual.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    I was queuing for heroic dungeons to get geared enough to run Kara, TazAvesh (spelling) and raids. I don't have fun at all in rushy, easy dungeons but I have to gear up some how, right? Similarly, LFR feels so watered down that it's about as much of a pain. I wanted to try out Taz`avesh so I had to do these things.
    You don't have to queue for them, you can just roll up to dungeons with 4 likeminded friends and enjoy them as you desire.

    If you don't have friends and queue with strangers you have no influence on who to run it with, and if you get a tank who's done it a million times already who wants to shoot through as fast as possible... tough luck for playing with strangers.

  20. #20
    You will be able to experience the Taza instance the way you want in Shadowlands classic, otherwise if you queue its a gogogo-fest.

    P.S. - as a tank you have more control over this, but in low-level stuff it won't matter and no one will wait for you.

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