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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    Now they're talking about buffing Ulduar gear.

    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...devs/1317075/9
    i like this change, it will give more reason to do ulduar and dont screw over the scaling in ToC and ICC, win win in my book

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    i like this change, it will give more reason to do ulduar and dont screw over the scaling in ToC and ICC, win win in my book
    A much better iteration. Now ToC will act as a supplement for gear to progress ulduar rather than a complete negation.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    A much better iteration. Now ToC will act as a supplement for gear to progress ulduar rather than a complete negation.
    Eh, it's still going to negate Ulduar pretty hard for anyone not interested in Hardmodes.

    With Ulduar 10man dropping 225 loot and ToC dropping 232 loot, i still think the pendulum very much swings in favor of ToC, especially when you also consider that the gap is much bigger in the 25man version, where it's 232 (Ulduar 25) vs. 245 (ToC 25man).

    Because ToC is so damn easy, i just don't see how history will not repeat itself for anyone who is not interested in Hardmodes, because that's the only area where it will really make a difference.
    Why bother going through a raid like Ulduar for 232 Loot when you can collect 245 Loot from a raid that is far more time efficient and easier.

    I still think the issue was that ToC Normal simply dropped loot that was far too good for how easy Normal mode was.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-09-06 at 02:56 PM.

  4. #184
    ICC won't be cleared in a week like others, ppl either didn't raid ICC when it was current or seem to forget that ICC was released in stages and wasn't released all at once.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Because ToC is so damn easy, i just don't see how history will not repeat itself for anyone who is not interested in Hardmodes
    Is that a problem, though? Hard modes aren't just uptuned, but they add to the mental load that many players can't handle as much as they want to try. Lament it, ridicule them, whatever, but that's reality.

    Bigbazz made a good point earlier in the thread on how ToC is a useful breather, particularly after such a deep experience like Ulduar. And I'll just say it, I think ToC (and Champion) has the best fight patter in the game, from Jaraxxus' endless quotables to the goofy drama around Faction Champs. I feel like supercore raiders lose sight of the fun pageantry of encounters. ToC was just plain entertaining week after week.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Is that a problem, though? Hard modes aren't just uptuned, but they add to the mental load that many players can't handle as much as they want to try. Lament it, ridicule them, whatever, but that's reality.
    The point is that people who are not interested in Hardmodes would still be incentived to play more Ulduar Normal mode under their previous idea, regardless of hardmodes or not, whereas the new idea sees those people skipping over Ulduar pretty quickly because if you're not interested in hardmodes, then Ulduar holds little value.

    So your point flies over this aspect, because it's not about mocking anyone who's not capable of doing Hardmodes but rather point out that for this audience, Ulduar (Normal, not just hardmodes) will again lose relevance pretty quickly, and i don't think they've said they only want to keep Ulduar relevant for a "specific audience".
    If you make the argument that even Ulduar normal is "too hard" for those people, then i frankly wonder how those people are going to cope with when Ulduar is the only content available (besides T7) or once ICC comes out, because Ulduar Normal and ICC Normal aren't too far apart (and i would even argue that 25man ICC is harder than 25man Ulduar Normal).
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    I feel like supercore raiders lose sight of the fun pageantry of encounters. ToC was just plain entertaining week after week.
    I just plain disagree, the encounters in ToC simply do not come together on normal mode because many abilities do not matter until you actually do the encounter on heroic (good example are the frost orbs on Anub'arak).
    Both ICC and Ulduar are even on Normal better designed raids.

    In my view the people who seriously defend ToC, their points often boil down to:
    1. It's easy
    2. It's fast
    3. It has powerful loot
    And in my view, it's the 3rd point that makes it problematic because it invalidates previous tiers that hard, which they wanted to combat and their new suggestion simply doesn't go far enough to change that for anyone not interested in hardmodes.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-09-06 at 06:29 PM.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If you make the argument that even Ulduar normal is "too hard" for those people, then i frankly wonder how those people are going to cope with when Ulduar is the only content available
    I wouldn't say "too hard" -- even normal Ulduar was challenging to average guilds. Just facts and bell curves. And I expect, perhaps to a lesser degree due to computer power and hindsight, that history will otherwise repeat itself and people will cope by hanging on to the coolness and mystery of the instance. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    I wouldn't say "too hard" -- even normal Ulduar was challenging to average guilds. Just facts and bell curves.
    The thing counteracting that however is that:
    1. People are on average better than they were in 2009
    2. Running off a 3.3.5 makes things generally easier because Classes are more powerful

    But disregarding these factors and looking beyond Ulduar, ICC will not be easier on those people, if you struggle to clear Ulduar normal, then both Sindragosa and Putricide will not be kind to you, let alone LK.
    And then you're at a point with that audience where literally half of that Wotlk's raid content is too difficult, which frankly shows that Ulduar normal is difficulty wise not really an outlier.

    Thing just is, if someone is at a skill level where Normal Ulduar, where i would say is below the upper end of TBC, is too difficult for them, then i have doubts that they actually represent a majority of the playerbase.
    Because from what i've seen on Warcraftlogs, most people did manage to clear those raids such as SWP, maybe not during the first week but they came around.

    And frankly, i'd rather progress bosses in Wotlk than in TBC - for multiple reasons.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by anveena View Post
    Its a stupid change. If they want Ulduar to last longer then just extend its phase a month or two. With the lockout changes they're making with ToC they've already made the chances that people will keep running Ulduar fairly high throughout the ToC phase.
    Ignore the pedophile defender.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    No. It's a solution in search for a problem that doesn't exist. Make Ulduar last for 6+ months. That's it. Problem solved. You run Ulduar weekly for 6 months, and the rose colored classes will come off about it being the best raid ever.

    Plenty of people still ran Naxx and Ulduar weekly on alts. They will even more now since people can't spam LFG for badges for badge gear.
    There isn't a single raid in existence, in any raiding-focused MMO, that will still be enjoyable after 6 months of weekly reclears. Even 8 weeks is pushing it.

  11. #191
    Having multiple tiers of content be relevant at the same time is something classic players seem to be interested in.

    Original WoW started to move away from that after coming up with difficulty modes, so reversing that a bit in the middle of the xpac seems like a good idea.

    I much prefer to run ulduar and totc every week than totc multiple times per week.
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  12. #192
    IMHO, the new content (including 5man heroic) should always give better loot than the tier before.
    If it is not, I will quit before totc.

    Especially, it is a recycle of the old content.
    I would not "miss" anything in the first place.

    "Classic" should keep whatever it was.
    Good or bad.
    What do you think if Blizzard nerfs "Darkmoon Card Greatness" and "Titansteel Destroyer"?

    I wouldn't play Cataclysm anyway.
    This just means that I will uninstall even earlier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The latest news is the other way around.
    The 5-man heroic gets better loot.

    https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/news/l...classic-328956

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