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  1. #81
    Bloodsail Admiral bloodkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    ...Mate, the sole reason why you didn't have a storemount or leveling boost in Classic is because Blizzard didn't expect it to blow up the way it did.
    If the beancounters say that the devs have to add a store, the devs that say no get moved to a new team or have to look for a new job.

    That's just the plain reality, all those design philosophies fall out of the window the second those people see an opportunity to make money, they also sat there and mused about the authenticity of TBC when they added both a mount and level boost.

    Disregarding that the second you bring that into the argument, i think you should first and foremost attack the leveling boost, not any change that's purely mechanical and has no monetary involvement for Blizzard.

    Like seriously, where were all those #nowotlkchanges people when they announced the continuation of the leveling boost into Wotlk?

    Two reasons.

    One, they stated their intent is to keep more than just the current content relevant, which is something that TotC heralded into the game ("play the patch").
    Both Naxx and Malygos remaining relevant during Ulduar very much follows this intent.

    Second, the amount of items you actually use from KT and Malygos are rather limited, it's not like you can deck out almost your entire character with KT and Malygos items.
    I'm not here to criticize the changes to ToTC or changes to Ulduar relevance, I honestly have less of a problem with that than the level boost and mounts/toys. I think those have absolutely no place in classic and I personally think those should never have been a thing. However, if there wasn't a near-monolithic and giant group of players that started the #nochanges trend I highly doubt blizz would've kept it only at the mount and levelboost but would've added token sooner or later as well as more mounts, pets, toys etc. It would've been the same shitshow retail is now by the end of TBC. Classic only exists because of community and the monitory power it represents, and blizz knows these customers are far more strict than retail players, they will hold blizzard accountable and will vote with their wallets if blizz really messes up. It's mostly a group of people that for the most part have already abandoned blizz once for their actions and will do so again if they think blizz's products aren't worth it. Blizzard needs them to try and salvage any semblance of their old rep too.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Monteverdi View Post
    Well you keep saying 'they chose' something and they haven't chosen anything. This is a change that they are floating as an idea.

    But they've also said nothing about elongating the PVP season. They've said they don't want truncate the ToC phase because that would force them to truncate the PVP season, which would be bad. But they've not said anything against *elongating* the PVP season which is what would happen if they elected to simply give Ulduar a bit longer. If we really want to change anything in order to give Ulduar 'time to breathe' this would certainly be the path of least resistance.
    Let's be real -- Blizzard very rarely goes back on the ideas it floats and this is a fairly uncontroversial change so I'm all but certain this is how it'll ultimately be implemented.

    Regardless, this is the easiest way, imo, to keep the PvP seasons from being weird while still fixing the itemization issues that they had with ToC. I mean, fuck, I guess another alternative would be to inflate Naxx/Ulduar item levels then remove ToC altogether but... I don't know how well that'd go over.

  3. #83
    I think it's shit but I won't be playing WrathC anyways lol.
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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    I'm not here to criticize the changes to ToTC or changes to Ulduar relevance
    Meanwhile, the thread title:
    What do you think of reduced ilvl on TotC gear?
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    However, if there wasn't a near-monolithic and giant group of players that started the #nochanges trend I highly doubt blizz would've kept it only at the mount and levelboost but would've added token sooner or later as well as more mounts, pets, toys etc.
    They already gave the hardcore #nochanges people the middle finger in TBC.
    They gave them middle finger in SoM.
    They gave them middle finger in Wotlk.

    I do not belive that Blizzard really cares about what the people who still vehementely argue for #nochanges think.
    There is just a large group that sits between "#nochanges" and "let's make Classic into Retail".
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    and will do so again if they think blizz's products aren't worth it.
    With all due respect, and i'm including myself to this:
    Paying 13 Bucks a month to play any Classic iteration is a piss poor deal, *especially* when they aren't going to make any changes whatsoever.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I don't think diminishing the experiences of PvP players is a particularly good idea either. This is a situation where the obvious solution has drawbacks so they chose to compromise. In the grander scheme of things most players will not give a shit and the net benefit of having more time in Ulduar is better all the way around.
    But you can have more time in Ulduar by expanding that tier and you can have less time in ToC by reducing that one. At the end of the day, for pvpers it makes not much difference, especially in this case where there will be no buffs/nerfs between seasons and the only difference would be how much longer/shorter you will carry any OP pve items in pvp.

  6. #86
    Warchief rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monteverdi View Post
    Yeah that's what's being discussed in this thread. Blizz is floating the idea of a 13 point item level reduction in all gear from ToC, Ony, and ICC as a means to: increase Ulduar's lifespan, raise ICC's difficulty, and tone down the ilevel inflation of OG WotLK. These are the stated objectives per Blizzard.

    More info here: https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...hat-with-devs/
    that whole thing just smacks of them being lazy, it also tells me that they aren't planning on doing nay sort of 'season of mastery' content for WOTLK so they are testing the waters of the community to see just how far they can push changes to fundamental gameplay systems in the 'live release' to make that content last as long as possible, that's my interpretation of this asinine conversation.


  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    that whole thing just smacks of them being lazy, it also tells me that they aren't planning on doing nay sort of 'season of mastery' content for WOTLK so they are testing the waters of the community to see just how far they can push changes to fundamental gameplay systems in the 'live release' to make that content last as long as possible, that's my interpretation of this asinine conversation.
    Yeah, it definitely feels like this is them giving up on SoM and thinking this is their one chance to make any changes they want to. It also to me feels like an OG WotLK dev who wants to go back and change things for personal/professional fulfillment, which if that's what it is I'm not judging them, but it's a bad idea to make this change.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Glazey View Post
    not really. it was more of a "we ran out of time" scenario and slapped a massively nerfed Naxx on top of the the other raids
    ??? it's literally a fact that hardly anyone actually did naxx during vanilla lmao.

  9. #89
    I am Murloc! Sting's Avatar
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    Ulduar didn't last long enough?? You'll be farming it for legendary shards the rest of the expansion. Clueless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The fun factor would go up 1000x if WQs existed in vanilla

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Making changes to what is the most popular time of WoW is good? You get more weird every day.
    Believing it can't be better is even weirder. Best doesn't mean perfect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Let's be real -- Blizzard very rarely goes back on the ideas it floats and this is a fairly uncontroversial change so I'm all but certain this is how it'll ultimately be implemented.

    Regardless, this is the easiest way, imo, to keep the PvP seasons from being weird while still fixing the itemization issues that they had with ToC. I mean, fuck, I guess another alternative would be to inflate Naxx/Ulduar item levels then remove ToC altogether but... I don't know how well that'd go over.
    ToC was fun, it just doesn't (at all) feel like a raid comparable to Ulduar or ICC. Reducing its ilvl and therefore its importance is the best change. Personally I'd go even further so that ToC25N drops the same ilvl as Ulduar25HM (making ToC25H the only direct upgrade before ICC) but I'm sure that'd be more controversial.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    ??? it's literally a fact that hardly anyone actually did naxx during vanilla lmao.
    Okay, champ. I didn't deny that the original Naxx had barely any participation.

    What I said was; The main reason why we got a rehashed Naxx in Wrath was because they ran out of development time.
    Last edited by Glazey; 2022-08-29 at 08:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    way to response after first word before waiting for me to actualy finish...

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    ToC was fun, it just doesn't (at all) feel like a raid comparable to Ulduar or ICC. Reducing its ilvl and therefore its importance is the best change. Personally I'd go even further so that ToC25N drops the same ilvl as Ulduar25HM (making ToC25H the only direct upgrade before ICC) but I'm sure that'd be more controversial.
    So, Phase 3 is likely to be ToC, Ony, and the Argent dailies/5-man. ToC has already been devalued via the lokcout change.

    Ignoring, for the moment, the ripple effect of changing the gear item levels and how that fundamentally changes class balance and encounter balance for the remainder of the expansion, and also ignoring for the moment the fact that this will be a change the disproportionately damages casual/10m guilds.... Ignoring all that, why still would you think this is a good idea to devalue the only raid content for an entire phase? How will making the raid practically irrelevant make that phase any more interesting for players at large?

    I'm all for giving Ulduar a longer time in the sun than it had back in the day, but devaluing ToC is a massive mistake.

  13. #93
    I think a lot of people are overreacting pretty hard to this change.

    Ok let's just go over how Wrath worked to begin with https://www.warcrafttavern.com/wotlk.../ulduar%20(10/
    187--5 man normal dungeons

    200--5 man heroics, Naxx 10, Trial of the Champion normal, Obsidian Sanctum 10

    213--Naxx 25, Malygos 10, Obsidian Sanctum 25, Sartharion 10 + 2 drakes (only 4 items on loot table)

    219--Ulduar 10, Heroic Trial of the Champion (the 5-man), ICC dungeons normal (Pit of Saron, Forge of Souls, Halls of Reflection)

    226--Kel'Thuzad 25, Malygos 25*, Sartharion 25 + 2 drakes***, Ulduar 10 Hard Modes** + Algalon (except weapons), Ulduar 25 (except weapons).
    *Note that Malygos had no weapons on his loot table (he had trinkets).
    **Ulduar hard modes had separate loot tables from normal modes. Trial of the Crusader they were just higher ilvls of the same weapons.
    ***Only 5 items on loot table

    232--Ulduar 10 Hard Mode Weapons**, Normal Trial of the Crusader, Onyxia 10, ICC 5-mans heroic
    **232 weapons from Ulduar are: Aesir's Edge, Hammer of Crushing Whispers, Icecore Staff, Tortured Earth, Boreal Guard, The Caress of Insanity, Combatant's Bootblade, Perilous Bite, Serilas Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm, Shiver, Magnetized Projectile Emitter, Twirling Blades, and some off-hands)

    239--Ulduar 25 Hard Mode, and weapons were back to the same ilvl as everything else

    245--TotC 10 Hard, TotC 25 normal, Onyxia 25, Val'anyr

    258--TotC 25 Hard, Halion 10 normal

    251--ICC 10 Normal

    264--ICC 10 Hard, ICC 25 normal

    271--Lich King 10 Hard (he only had weapons on his loot table, listed below), Halion 25, Halion 10 Hard

    277--ICC 25 Hard

    284--Lich King 25 Hard (weapons only), Halion 25 Hard, Shadowmourne

    And just for fun, Lich King 10 weapons were:
    Warmace of Menethil
    Halion, Staff of Forgotten Love
    Tel'thas, Dagger of the Blood King
    Tainted Twig of Nordrassil
    Valius, Gavel of the Lightbringer
    Windrunner's Heartseeker
    Troggbane, Axe of the Frostborne King
    Pugius, Fist of Defiance
    Stormfury, Black Blade of the Betrayer

    LK 25:
    Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand
    Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General
    Fal'inrush, Defender of Quel'thalas
    Royal Scepter of Terenas II
    Archus, Greatstaff of Antonidas
    Havoc's Call, Blade of Lordaeron Kings
    Bloodsurge, Kel'Thuzad's Blade of Agony
    Heaven's Fall, Kryss of a Thousand Lies
    Mithrios, Bronzebeard's Legacy
    and Invincible of course

    Ok so the rose-tinted glasses are coming off for me, it literally took me over an hour just to look all that up because ilvls were such a mess in Wrath. I remember back in the day even they were saying how having Kel'Thuzad drop 226 weapons caused enormous problems for the rest of the expansion.

    So I forgot what I was originally going to write, but now that I see how messed up ilvls were to begin with...I don't think changing them slightly is going to affect much of anything.
    Last edited by garicasha; 2022-08-29 at 11:04 PM.
    Raid bosses will always be very similar so long as encounter design requires DPS to always be pumping 100%.

  14. #94
    Maybe I'm ignorant or blind, but I don't see anywhere where blues said they're nerfing gear. Where did they say they are nerfing gear? Please link the blue post or source, I can't find it.

  15. #95
    Don't really see your point. There's nothing weird about those ilvls, and bigger gaps = more fun. They're literally nerfing fun.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssateneth View Post
    Maybe I'm ignorant or blind, but I don't see anywhere where blues said they're nerfing gear. Where did they say they are nerfing gear? Please link the blue post or source, I can't find it.
    It's just an idea at this point. (a bad one)

    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...devs/1317075/4

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Ssateneth View Post
    Maybe I'm ignorant or blind, but I don't see anywhere where blues said they're nerfing gear. Where did they say they are nerfing gear? Please link the blue post or source, I can't find it.
    https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...hat-with-devs/

    13ilvl drop planned from TOTC onwards.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...hat-with-devs/

    13ilvl drop planned from TOTC onwards.
    Well, not 'planned'. It's being discussed. With all that this would impact, I just can't imagine they'd actually do it. Would be a monstrously enormous change.

  18. #98
    There's a few things mitigating its effects:
    --Players are so much better now
    --We have anachronistic knowledge of all the fights
    --Addons are so much better now
    --It doesn't effect Ulduar at all until Trial comes out
    --(Personally, Trial is IMO the worst raid ever so I don't really care that much about its balancing)

    Worst case scenario it completely throws off the balancing of Trial...so then they patch the game to use all the original ilvls and boss stats, problem solved.

    The one thing I will say is odd is that they're choosing to not invalidate the previous tier's gear on the first raid that was intended to invalidate the previous tier's gear.

    I'm also making some assumptions:
    --Same stats for bosses, we'll just be lower ilvl so they'll be harder
    --Ulduar will be out for longer than the 3 1/2 months it originally was
    Raid bosses will always be very similar so long as encounter design requires DPS to always be pumping 100%.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    So I forgot what I was originally going to write, but now that I see how messed up ilvls were to begin with...I don't think changing them slightly is going to affect much of anything.
    I remembered that the ilvl creep problem started in WotLK, but i had forgotten how bad it got by the end. Thanks for the reminder.
    And that list doesn't even cover the many waves of badge gears they kept throwing at us or the easy pvp gears you could get. It really got out of hand in ToCG and just went for crazier in ICC. A slight rework of all those ilvl would be welcomed.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Wrath worked like it worked and people loved it.
    did people REALLY love wrath because every patch changed how the raid lockouts worked?or that the best raid of the expansion only saw 2 months?did people REALLY love farmin 4 trials a week because it was optimal gear wise?

    cmon..no one loved wrath for any of those reasons,the issue here is that a LITERAL ''no changes'' cult has been formed and they foam at the mouth at any act of blasphemy against their fanatical mantra
    Last edited by deenman; 2022-08-29 at 11:07 PM.

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