What do you think of reduced ilvl on TotC gear?

[TrollHunter3000]

Okay, champ. I didn't deny that the original Naxx had barely any participation.

What I said was; The main reason why we got a rehashed Naxx in Wrath was because they ran out of development time.

I mean okay, I guess if you want to make shit up.

[Glazey]

I mean okay, I guess if you want to make shit up.

Besides saying it in a older interview that was the case; Explain why for the first tier the only actual new raids were single boss encounters with extremely minimal trash.

Then after that, explain why Naxx was insanely undertuned.

[TrollHunter3000]

Besides saying it in a older interview that was the case; Explain why for the first tier the only actual new raids were single boss encounters with extremely minimal trash.

Then after that, explain why Naxx was insanely undertuned.

Link it then if that's the case.

How the fuck would I know why they chose to make the raids they did?

[Fkiolaris]

It doesn't bother me, but I'm not a PVPer so I can't really speak intelligently to the impact of a shorter season. It's just a stated goal of blizzard, that they *don't* cut a PVP season short, so we can rule that out as an option per their statements.

I didn't say it bothers you (the same way it doesn't bother me), I was just asking if you could see any logic behind it since I couldn't. You made yourself clear now that you were simply repeating Blizzard's reason, maybe someone else will be able to at least give some reasoning behind it.

[Glazey]

Link it then if that's the case.

How the fuck would I know why they chose to make the raids they did?

Believe me or not idc, I'm not about to shift through 50 different interviews to find it again. Even without it, it's pretty obvious that they ran out of time.

[anveena]

Its a stupid change. If they want Ulduar to last longer then just extend its phase a month or two. With the lockout changes they're making with ToC they've already made the chances that people will keep running Ulduar fairly high throughout the ToC phase.

[marulol]

Ever think you don't have to do both every week? no one is forcing you to raid more than you want to. Ulduar will take a bit of time for the dad guilds but even when its on farm it'll go quick definitely less than 3 hours. TOTGC will take less than 2 hours when on farm. If you can't raid 2 days a week then i'm sorry but maybe classic isn't for you. 2 days is considered minimum raid time on retail.

[Makaloff]

Imagine thinking that letting the most popular raid Blizzard has ever designed get completely invalidated by a shittier raid is a good idea simply because you just can't cope with the concept of change.

solution: extend the ulduar raid tier then. besides, Ulduar is a huge raid and it takes hours to clear even with a competent team. sure its fun the first times but then its just turning into a chore. ToC may been boring (allthought i personally liked it) but it was atleast quick.

Another issue is that ilvl changes is messing up class balance, some speccs and classes start scaling later on (MM hunter, fury warr, fire mage etc). by clapping the ilvl it will mess up the balance greatly. Once again, why change something that doesnt need? its not about not being able to cope with change, its about whats resonable or not.

Extending the raid tiers is a solution that wont mess with the game and will cause exactly what the devs want, instead they propose a nonsentical nerf to something that doesnt need to be nerfed.

[Kralljin]

Explain why for the first tier the only actual new raids were single boss encounters with extremely minimal trash.

Because another full fledged raid besides Naxx would've been overkill for the first tier, it already has 15 Bosses, you don't need a single raid tier with 20+ bosses.

Then after that, explain why Naxx was insanely undertuned.

Because they fucked it up, they literally admitted that in their reasoning when they announced they're going to buff Naxx.

[Relapses]

solution: extend the ulduar raid tier then. besides, Ulduar is a huge raid and it takes hours to clear even with a competent team. sure its fun the first times but then its just turning into a chore. ToC may been boring (allthought i personally liked it) but it was atleast quick.

Another issue is that ilvl changes is messing up class balance, some speccs and classes start scaling later on (MM hunter, fury warr, fire mage etc). by clapping the ilvl it will mess up the balance greatly. Once again, why change something that doesnt need? its not about not being able to cope with change, its about whats resonable or not.

Extending the raid tiers is a solution that wont mess with the game and will cause exactly what the devs want, instead they propose a nonsentical nerf to something that doesnt need to be nerfed.

If Ulduar is extended then ToC needs to be shortened. And if ToC is shortened then that's weird for PvP, which is exactly the reason Blizzard floated this compromise in the first place. (Blizzard can't split the PvP season mid-tier because it'll either make PvE greatly superior to PvP or vice-versa.) And yeah, I know it's easy to say "well who gives a fuck about PvP, let 'em bitch," but I don't particularly think dramatically impacting their quality of life on behalf of content they're often purposefully avoiding is going to gain Blizzard a whole lot of good will from this section of the playerbase.

[Akka]

The itemlevel inflation is what makes wotlk one of the best expansion. If you want a "balanced" game where you have 17% crit and die of boredom you can play retail.

ilvl inflation is the core problem of nearly everything in WoW, if you think it's good you must not have thought more than "yay big number" about it.

[varren]

If they're going to do it it would be nice if they announce it before Wrath actually starts so people can reroll away from the specs that are only any good in the super high ilvl gear

[Exkrementor]

ilvl inflation is the core problem of nearly everything in WoW, if you think it's good you must not have thought more than "yay big number" about it.

Nope. Flat damage increases like the ICC buff are the problem. They make the numbers bigger without changing your gameplay. The ilvl inflation makes your classes more fun and I like fun.

[Makaloff]

If Ulduar is extended then ToC needs to be shortened. And if ToC is shortened then that's weird for PvP, which is exactly the reason Blizzard floated this compromise in the first place. (Blizzard can't split the PvP season mid-tier because it'll either make PvE greatly superior to PvP or vice-versa.) And yeah, I know it's easy to say "well who gives a fuck about PvP, let 'em bitch," but I don't particularly think dramatically impacting their quality of life on behalf of content they're often purposefully avoiding is going to gain Blizzard a whole lot of good will from this section of the playerbase.

with other words, just best to leave it be and do no ilvl squish, beacuse by the sounds of it you either screw pvp players over or pve players. i want my class to scale as intended, not getting nerfed beacuse they wanna force people to do ulduar longer. it would be like nerfing BT and SWP to make KT/SSC stay longer.

[Relapses]

with other words, just best to leave it be and do no ilvl squish, beacuse by the sounds of it you either screw pvp players over or pve players. i want my class to scale as intended, not getting nerfed beacuse they wanna force people to do ulduar longer. it would be like nerfing BT and SWP to make KT/SSC stay longer.

I really do not think fucking over Ulduar is a good idea, especially when you're doing it for a Tier that isn't remembered very well at all.

[Bigbazz]

If Ulduar is extended then ToC needs to be shortened.

Why? There is no reason they cannot have Naxx be a little shorter, Ulduar a little longer and TOTC remain the same. There is no reason at all why they would have to compensate making Ulduar longer by making TOTC shorter. Do we not forget that in Classic TBC the game launched with only a fraction of the original release raid content, and that PVP seasons happened on an entirely different release schedule to 2007/2008 TBC?

They can do whatever they want, leaving TOTC the same and extending Ulduar makes the most sense. And ICC in 2010 was a really long phase (almost a year), the only concern is down to Blizzard massively shortening the lifecycle of expansions like they have done with TBC compared to 2007/8, but even with all of the above adjustments and a shorter than original WOTLK Classic we still have enough time for a decent length T10.

I really do not think fucking over Ulduar is a good idea, especially when you're doing it for a Tier that isn't remembered very well at all.

What are you talking about "fucking over Ulduar".. WOTLK was the most popular and successful WoW expansion, on Pservers it still is. You're talking about "fucking over" the game by "not" making changes to it, the expansion is absolutely incredible just as it was in 2008-2010. Ulduar needs to be taken off this pedestal, WOTLK expansion is not the Ulduar raid and we shouldn't be trying to make it that.

[Kralljin]

Do we not forget that in Classic TBC the game launched with only a fraction of the original release raid content, and that PVP seasons happened on an entirely different release schedule to 2007/2008 TBC?

...which they did because it would've completely fucked over PvP seasons because having T5 gear available right off the bat would've damn OP, invalidated T4 rather fast and also cut TBC even shorter.

I frankly don't see the point of that anecdote, yeah Blizzard made changes to the release schedule for the better of the game, your point is?

And ICC in 2010 was a really long phase (almost a year)

Because it took them that long to develop Cata.

Unless you want to argue that you want those content droughts to be authentic as well.

Ulduar needs to be taken off this pedestal, WOTLK expansion is not the Ulduar raid and we shouldn't be trying to make it that.

Maybe you put off some of Wotlk stuff you're smoking.

Take out Ulduar and the raid content of Wotlk suddenly looks very...mediocre.
T7 is something that's just bad, *especially* now on a re release where everybody and their mother already has seen Naxx in Classic.
T9 is TotC, which is frankly a bad raid tier.
And then you're left with ICC, not a bad raid, but it would come across as rather odd to sing praises about ICC while also implying that Ulduar is overrated.

So yeah, for a PvE centric game where raiding is the de facto endgame, i'd say that matters very much.

Completely disregarding that the thing we're talking are 13 fucking Ilvl, on the very top end, they're not redesigning the whole expansion for fucks sake.
Sorry, but praising Wotlk into the heaven and flipping the script on Ulduar comes across as awfully contrarian.

[Relapses]

Why? There is no reason they cannot have Naxx be a little shorter, Ulduar a little longer and TOTC remain the same. There is no reason at all why they would have to compensate making Ulduar longer by making TOTC shorter. Do we not forget that in Classic TBC the game launched with only a fraction of the original release raid content, and that PVP seasons happened on an entirely different release schedule to 2007/2008 TBC?

They can do whatever they want, leaving TOTC the same and extending Ulduar makes the most sense. And ICC in 2010 was a really long phase (almost a year), the only concern is down to Blizzard massively shortening the lifecycle of expansions like they have done with TBC compared to 2007/8, but even with all of the above adjustments and a shorter than original WOTLK Classic we still have enough time for a decent length T10.

You cannot tell me with a straight face that anybody is looking forward to T9. The entire reason it exists in the first place is because Blizzard wanted something to hold players over while they finished ICC. They've said in retrospect that they made a lot of mistakes experimenting with the way raid lockouts and gear worked in this expansion. They now have an opportunity to right some of those wrongs -- objectively making the game better as a result -- and you're digging your heels into the sand and screaming "NOOOOOoooooo THAT'S NOT EXACTLY WHAT MADE WOTLK POPULAR!!!111" as if you have even the faintest fucking idea. (I'd wager Blizzard does, though.)

What are you talking about "fucking over Ulduar".. WOTLK was the most popular and successful WoW expansion, on Pservers it still is. You're talking about "fucking over" the game by "not" making changes to it, the expansion is absolutely incredible just as it was in 2008-2010. Ulduar needs to be taken off this pedestal, WOTLK expansion is not the Ulduar raid and we shouldn't be trying to make it that.

With all do respect, that isn't your decision to make. Private servers exist to give pirates a way to play the game. They are not the same audience as the one that Blizzard is looking to entice with Classic. Classic is nostalgia bait through and through and there's nothing more nostalgic than getting the homies together to take out Ulduar. On the other hand, there is almost nothing remotely nostalgic about getting the homies together to do a ToC normal run that takes 1/10th the time and effort and getting better gear than most Ulduar hard modes.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Its not a terrible idea but I don't really see an end game to it. So ICC is just harder or something? People run the same content for longer? The ICC thing can probably be easier solved with the buff they added to the zone. If they want people to stay in Ulduar longer then just don't release TotC as quickly. Seems like a lot of work they are putting in when a lot simpler solutions are on the table.

[Makaloff]

I really do not think fucking over Ulduar is a good idea, especially when you're doing it for a Tier that isn't remembered very well at all.

well everything isnt perfectly balanced, thats just how it was back then. If anything it can help to push up ulduars ilvl a bit to make the gap less, people are gonna want to go back to ulduar nontheless, mainly due leggy mace but also other items. Ilvl doesnt always trumph as we can see in both classic and TBC. heck me as hunter was still using DST going into SWP, i still cleared BT each week to get my hands on the illidari council trinket for example. I feel blizzard is making a hen out of a feather. Ofcourse i understand they want the tier last longer and thats fine, i just think its wrong that ToC and ICC especielly is going to have to suffer just beacuse of one raid tier.

or they could squish the ilvl in ToC and leave ICC alone, thus making it a bit more challening in the start of ICC and scaling classes wont be punished in ICC thanks to ulduar.