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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Wasted potential.
    A united full horde with a very advanced technology was easily defeated in their own timeline by a bunch of guys from an other world and other timeline with little to no help possible from their homeworld and who just survived a very destructive war and civil war.

    That was pathetic writing again.
    Eh, I don't much have a problem with that one. The Iron Horde did have advanced technology, but they were just two years after Garrosh had arrived. And Garrosh was an idiot. He was so hungry for revenge on Azeroth that he guided the Iron Horde to attack Azeroth too soon. The Old Horde had united, dealt with the Draenei, Magnaron and other threats on their world fully, before invading Azeroth. This time the Dark Portal was opened prematurely, before everything on Draenor was settled.

    Also we did have help from our homeworld. We weren't stranded for long. The Horde and Alliance both brought in reinforcements through Ashran. And we didn't do it alone, but with help from the Draenei and several Orc clans.

  2. #22
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    Also we did have help from our homeworld. We weren't stranded for long. The Horde and Alliance both brought in reinforcements through Ashran. And we didn't do it alone, but with help from the Draenei and several Orc clans.
    That was also a huge mistake in WoD and a huge hit against the Iron Horde. They were set up to be so dangerous, that the Horde and Alliance could not push them back at the Dark Portal, and yet, as soon as the Dark Portal goes down, we can easily send an army through that deals with them easily.

    Would have been much more fun and interesting if the Dark Portal never fell and that the Horde/Alliance were forced to stay behind to fight. That way, the expansion could focus on the new factions on Dreanor and make it about gathering forces on Dreanor to stop the flow of the Iron Horde into Azeroth.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    Also attacking Azeroth while you don't have whole of Draenor under your control... And Garrosh is supposed to be a good commander?
    This is kind of the flaw of many WOW villains, since expansions need variety in their continents. The Scourge didn't control all of northrend, and even Argus somehow still had pockets of resistance to the legion.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    I realize we're talking a lot about wasted potential and I'm wondering if anything in wow actually lived up to its potential.
    Lich king, imo, very satisfactory conclusion at the end of WOTLK.

  5. #25
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    This is kind of the flaw of many WOW villains, since expansions need variety in their continents. The Scourge didn't control all of northrend, and even Argus somehow still had pockets of resistance to the legion.
    One thing I liked about the Argus arc in Legion was that Hatuun and his Broken weren't really a pocket of resistance in any real sense - they were just survivors, barely hanging on in their hidden enclave in Krokuun until they were reinforced by the Army of the Light and the Azerothian vanguard. I think it would've been very unrealistic to have a persistent force taking the fight to the Legion on their homeworld, but a hidden group of survivors wasn't too farfetched (especially ones with a seemingly natural ability to cloak themselves).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    Eh, I don't much have a problem with that one. The Iron Horde did have advanced technology, but they were just two years after Garrosh had arrived. And Garrosh was an idiot. He was so hungry for revenge on Azeroth that he guided the Iron Horde to attack Azeroth too soon. The Old Horde had united, dealt with the Draenei, Magnaron and other threats on their world fully, before invading Azeroth. This time the Dark Portal was opened prematurely, before everything on Draenor was settled.
    That's pretty much Garrosh to a "T," really. If Garrosh excelled at longer-term thinking, and with his knowledge of how events in the original timeline of Draenor went, he could've engineered a much stronger Iron Horde in control of the majority of Draenor's resources with which to contend with Azeroth. But instead of taking his time and taking advantage of his relative foresight as he was effectively from the future, he instead engineered a hasty coup without any real due diligence and was eventually outmaneuvered by Gul'dan and the Shadow Council who more fully put his Iron Horde until the Legion's thumb.

    All in all, pretty much peak Garrosh - and a spectacular failure just like his brief rule on Azeroth proved to be.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  6. #26
    The Iron Horde had my favorite aesthetic in the entire game, having the different clans work together yet not abandoning their culture was great too.
    Speaking of.. I want Blizzard to give the Mag'har a section of Orgrimmar (or make a new one) and have them develop a train that works similarly to the Ironforge one.

  7. #27
    It is difficult to see and judge the Iron Horde in light of WoDs missing/cut/last minute revised content.

    Purely as a concept / idea I loved the Iron Horde. I thought it was an interesting twist to the 'Old Horde', now with an industrial advantage instead of a fel one - and I loved how they initially took down Mannoroth with an Iron Star. I also liked how they initially enslaved the shadow council to power up the portal. The idea that Hellscream took ideas and technology from the goblins/'True Horde' to build the Iron Horde with a time step. It reminds me of Clark's "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

    From a strategy point of view it didn't make sense that he rushed the invasion of Azeroth before securing and subdueing Draenor, but this is more to blame on Garrosh's lust for vengeance than on the Iron Horde Concept. Any other odd decision on the Iron Horde can be attributed to cut/revised content. Pre-patch should have been bigger I think, with a near sacking of Stormwind. Lore wise the alliance was heavily weakend after the Raid on Orgrimmar / events on Pandora. It felt rather stupid that the Íron March'push was stopped in the Blasted Lands with only Netherguard as a casualty.

    A better story would have been if they would conquer all of southern Eastern Kingdoms, save Stranglethorn Vale, push north up to and including Searing Gorge and Badlands, reclaiming important Old Horde areas as well as sacking Stormwind. From there Loch Modan would have been the Alliance/Horde's standa gainst the Iron March and have them push back before entering WoD Draenor.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    The Iron Horde had my favorite aesthetic in the entire game, having the different clans work together yet not abandoning their culture was great too.
    Speaking of.. I want Blizzard to give the Mag'har a section of Orgrimmar (or make a new one) and have them develop a train that works similarly to the Ironforge one.
    It would be really cool for the Mag'har to create a train similar to the Grimrail Depot's set-up going between the Echo Isles, Orgrimmar, and on into Thunder Bluff. Perhaps it could also have stops at the Crossroads, Razor Hill, and other Horde settlements. Would be a lot more interesting than the zeppelin that currently ferries us between Thunder Bluff and Orgrimmar. Could even have separate trains carrying goods and such as flavor, perhaps a diversion down to Rachet or even further down into Dustwallow Marsh.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    And Garrosh is supposed to be a good commander?
    Only according to his fanboys, who think "Charge in, ax flailing, screaming like a loon" is a great strategy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  10. #30
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    Great concept that got squashed out by WoD's content cuts & Blizz's early turn towards Legion.

    In concept, it was great. How powerful could the Orcs be without the enslavement of the demon blood? At the beginning of WoD, they looked fantastic. That first chain in Tanaan is intense, from the first moments you go through the portal & see how vast the Iron Horde army really is to the intense chase where you have to run off to the boats to escape. They feel like a truly world breaking army that we would struggle to beat & had Blizz kept that up, I think they'd be remembered as one of the great villains to date.

    But Blizz changed direction & started raising up the Legion once we got to Talador while decreasing the importance of the Iron Horde in general. We lost Ner'zhul in one of the first dungeons, we lost Kargath as the first boss of the first raid. The Iron Horde spent most of WoD as a seemingly secondary villain in their own expansion, and eventually even came to our side for no other reason than "the outsiders are strong." They did nothing to atone for their actions...not that they needed to, given how everyone apparently befriended Grommash & cheered at his declaration of freedom without a second thought to what he had done.

    If Blizz had just stuck with letting the Iron Horde truly be the villains & only given small hints about the Legion, I suspect a lot would've gone better in WoD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It would be really cool for the Mag'har to create a train similar to the Grimrail Depot's set-up going between the Echo Isles, Orgrimmar, and on into Thunder Bluff. Perhaps it could also have stops at the Crossroads, Razor Hill, and other Horde settlements. Would be a lot more interesting than the zeppelin that currently ferries us between Thunder Bluff and Orgrimmar. Could even have separate trains carrying goods and such as flavor, perhaps a diversion down to Rachet or even further down into Dustwallow Marsh.
    I've long thought the Mag'har should take over & fix up the Crossroads for much this same reason. Going from the Crossroads as the main depot, they could absolutely hook up most of Kalimdor to a train setup really quickly to ferry supplies & goods for the Horde. Plus they could absolutely make the Crossroads into a true Mag'har fortress while giving themselves a true home to build their identity in Azeroth. Not to mention it's nice & close to the Wailing Caverns oasis which the Botani that came through the portal with them could do wonders with.
    Last edited by AngerFork; 2022-08-31 at 02:56 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    And Garrosh is supposed to be a good commander?
    He did charge into a Quilboar lair with just a squad of Kor'kron.
    Guess what was the result of the fight.

  12. #32
    The weakest main threat we have had in WoW yet. They haven't won a single match the moment they entered the Dark Portal, ended up losing everything to the point that they were already no longer a threat when WoD got its first ''real'' major patch, with Gul'dan and the Legion taking over as the main villain. They could have maybe been better if the expansion didn't get cut for like 30% and if Grom did indeed end up becoming the final boss. But apparently people complained too much about orc fatigue so they just brought in the Legion a lot earlier than planned.

    I do like their aethestics and the playable Mag'har are quite badass. I liked how they brought their own arsenal during the BFA assaults like their massive gunship in Nazmir and getting to use the Iron Star to roll over Alliance scum. I hope to see their story continue with Yrel but I can't expect much quality from Blizzard these days.

    All the orc warlords were done dirty. Only Blackhand has his moments but he should have played a bigger role in Gorgrond which was already largely cut storywise, and it should have lead to the Shattrah assault and eventually the scrapped raid. Gul'dan became a more generic bad guy who only serves the Legion unlike the original who just wanted all the power to himself. Sad thing is that their Harbringer stories were actually great, but to see how they were executed in game is just sad.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    The weakest main threat we have had in WoW yet. They haven't won a single match the moment they entered the Dark Portal, ended up losing everything to the point that they were already no longer a threat when WoD got its first ''real'' major patch, with Gul'dan and the Legion taking over as the main villain. They could have maybe been better if the expansion didn't get cut for like 30% and if Grom did indeed end up becoming the final boss. But apparently people complained too much about orc fatigue so they just brought in the Legion a lot earlier than planned.

    I do like their aethestics and the playable Mag'har are quite badass. I liked how they brought their own arsenal during the BFA assaults like their massive gunship in Nazmir and getting to use the Iron Star to roll over Alliance scum. I hope to see their story continue with Yrel but I can't expect much quality from Blizzard these days.

    All the orc warlords were done dirty. Only Blackhand has his moments but he should have played a bigger role in Gorgrond which was already largely cut storywise, and it should have lead to the Shattrah assault and eventually the scrapped raid. Gul'dan became a more generic bad guy who only serves the Legion unlike the original who just wanted all the power to himself. Sad thing is that their Harbringer stories were actually great, but to see how they were executed in game is just sad.
    Agreed with you until the Gul'dan part. Gul'dan was great, and he actually did want power for himself but was kept on a 24/7 watch by the legion because of the previous Gul'dans failure, this is further emphasized in the Tomb of Sargeras audio novel released before Legion's launch.

  14. #34
    They sucked. I don't think it was even a case of good idea bad execution, they just flat out sucked. We'd already just finished an expac where Orcs were the bad guys. The Iron Horde didn't bring anything to the table that Garrosh's Horde hadn't already done. Blackhand was the only memorable Warlord and even he was mostly just because of his design.

    And IMO, revealing that the Orcs would have still become a bunch of genocidal maniacs who try to wipe out the Draenei and invade Azeroth even without the demon blood was a terrible decision that makes them completely unsympathetic. WoW in general has really made the Orcs hard to like compared to WC3, but that was one of the most damaging things they've ever done.

  15. #35
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrathius View Post
    Blackhand was the only memorable Warlord and even he was mostly just because of his design.
    For me, Blackhand comes in a close second to the redesign for Kargath Bladefist:



    The Nathan Explosion of orcs.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  16. #36
    I think it would have been better if it was Blackhand, again, who made the pact with Gul'dan, due to his lust for power and ambitions, it could have been possible for Gul'dan to save him from the Alliance/Horde and then help him overthrow Grommash.

    We also should have seen more of the Ogres, and of Imperator Mar'gok, with his feud with Cho'gall being expanded on, and him playing a double-game; as well as truly seeing the results of the Ogres Magic Breakers against Azerothi forces.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I put WoD on the lower tier of WoW's various expansions in terms of execution.
    thats definitely true, but i think every expansion had some feature or whatnot that didnt reach its potential and then was promptly discarded
    but yeah, WoD didnt have features like that, WoD WAS like that

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    thats definitely true, but i think every expansion had some feature or whatnot that didnt reach its potential and then was promptly discarded
    but yeah, WoD didnt have features like that, WoD WAS like that
    My general metric for rating expansions usually boils down to aesthetic, leveling experience, endgame experience, and overall story. WoD generally fails, for me, on 50% of my metrics - the endgame experience was pretty meh, and the overall story was jumbled and poorly constructed. The aesthetic was, for the most part, pretty good and the leveling experience is perhaps its only saving grace. Another expansion I rate even more poorly is BfA, whose aesthetic is only okay, leveling experience is okay, but the endgame and overall story are abysmal. That's of course only my subjective take on those categories, but it's how I generally assess expansions.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  19. #39
    I might have been more open to the idea of a new evil horde if we hadn't JUST FINISHED MOP where the last couple patches were all about horde and alliance fighting Garrosh's 'True Horde.' Then we get the Iron Horde as the main antagonists of an entire base expansion?

    I love Draenor. The continent it self is great. I like the dreanei stuff there a lot, I like the frost wolf stuff, I like the shadowmoon stuff. Against all odds I liked the Arakkoa storyline despite hating them in BC.

    But the Iron Horde as a concept already felt played out BEFORE the expansion launched.

  20. #40
    setting aside the issue of orcs and the time travel or whatever, the IH never seemed particularly threatening. Kind of a recurring theme in the game because all the story stuff is always so easy. I mean ultimately even the Legion just ends up being a bunch of demons you AE down to fill a bar, right?

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