Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
... LastLast
  1. #21
    The Lich King Fight, plain and simple.

    Before that point in WoW's history (And outside of certain quests, ever sense), Resurrection has always been a game mechanic and never something that actually happens within the context of the character's existence. If you were dead, then that was it. While it's thematic for the fight and one could argue that Terenas, being a spirit and connected to Frostmorne, could resurrect those fighting against Arthas, it still takes away the aspect that Life and Death should MEAN something within the world. just having a revolving door where people could come back without issue just ruins any sense of suspense.

  2. #22
    Vashj'ir and, in particular, Ozumat's kidnapping Neptulon. It felt like that should have actually mattered. Next time we encounter Neptulon, he's free and willing to help against the Legion.

    Also, I felt like the mantid should've been a bigger threat. They don't have too much of an impact, with their swarming getting pushed back every single time they surface. It really undercut the lore building up mantid swarms as something the pandaren spent a great time to prepare for.

    Lastly, Nazjatar, with the only reason for our success being that Azshara continued to hold back the water. As soon as she got the dagger from Nathanos, there was no reason that she shouldn't have just let the ocean flood in and end the resistance from those on the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    If you consider that in Warcraft 3 we needed all armies of Azeroth to stop Archimonde.
    Meaning basicly all bosses that are considered stronger then him should have beaten us heck maybe alot more since we are like what 20-40 people lore-wise facing these bosses.
    The Horde forces, Alliance refugees, and Sentinels weren't needed to beat Archimonde, jut to delay him so that Malfurion had time to gather enough wisps for his trap. With more foresight, none of the armies would have been necessary. Meanwhile, in WoD, we were channeling the arcane might of the Highmaul empowered with the ancient capabilities of the Apexis through legendary rings. IMO, it seemed comparable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    The Lich King Fight, plain and simple.

    Before that point in WoW's history (And outside of certain quests, ever sense), Resurrection has always been a game mechanic and never something that actually happens within the context of the character's existence. If you were dead, then that was it. While it's thematic for the fight and one could argue that Terenas, being a spirit and connected to Frostmorne, could resurrect those fighting against Arthas, it still takes away the aspect that Life and Death should MEAN something within the world. just having a revolving door where people could come back without issue just ruins any sense of suspense.
    We had resurrection quests prior to that point, though. The Horde has a questline in Borean Tundra all focused on resurrecting a dead shaman, for instance. It was definitely rare, but it's been a thing since WC3 paladins.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    - Archimonde's defeat at Dreanor (It took a lot more to defeat him at Hyjal, so it's a bit strange we defeated him with a bit more ease. He could've wiped us out)
    well in draenor we had khadgar,gromm,yrel and we as the champions were way more of a big deal than the random foorsoldiers in hyjal

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    - The confrontation with the Lich King (We were beaten... only by a strange twist of fate, we were resurrected and won)
    - Archimonde's defeat at Dreanor (It took a lot more to defeat him at Hyjal, so it's a bit strange we defeated him with a bit more ease. He could've wiped us out)
    - Kil'Jaiden's defeat (We mopped the floor with the Legion, only to find out that Sargeras were closeby all along... it could've ended badly!)
    - Argus' defeat (Argus could've and would've murdered us if it weren't for the deus ex machina)
    - N'zoth's defeat (Supposedly, an Azerothian Kamehameha is all that was needed...)

    We've had too many run ins with death...

    I know it's a game and we're meant to win, but it'd be good to occasionally lose, in a gameplay sense. That way we can work on a story where we're the underdogs again!
    We beat other old gods without it and Nzoth was weaker than those we killed. He's lucky he even got that attention as he was also humiliated and beaten down twice in his lifetime before us(Ysh and keepers).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Vashj'ir and, in particular, Ozumat's kidnapping Neptulon. It felt like that should have actually mattered. Next time we encounter Neptulon, he's free and willing to help against the Legion.

    Also, I felt like the mantid should've been a bigger threat. They don't have too much of an impact, with their swarming getting pushed back every single time they surface. It really undercut the lore building up mantid swarms as something the pandaren spent a great time to prepare for.

    Lastly, Nazjatar, with the only reason for our success being that Azshara continued to hold back the water. As soon as she got the dagger from Nathanos, there was no reason that she shouldn't have just let the ocean flood in and end the resistance from those on the surface.



    The Horde forces, Alliance refugees, and Sentinels weren't needed to beat Archimonde, jut to delay him so that Malfurion had time to gather enough wisps for his trap. With more foresight, none of the armies would have been necessary. Meanwhile, in WoD, we were channeling the arcane might of the Highmaul empowered with the ancient capabilities of the Apexis through legendary rings. IMO, it seemed comparable.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We had resurrection quests prior to that point, though. The Horde has a questline in Borean Tundra all focused on resurrecting a dead shaman, for instance. It was definitely rare, but it's been a thing since WC3 paladins.
    In terms of Azshara.....did....did you even play the game or pay attention to the lore? It's literally explained. She wasn't after the dagger. She wanted us and the heart.

  5. #25
    Legendary! Dellis0991's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Detroit,Michigan,USA
    Posts
    6,235
    That one Indiana Jones style quest where our character nearly got dusted....we should've got dusted.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    We beat other old gods without it and Nzoth was weaker than those we killed. He's lucky he even got that attention as he was also humiliated and beaten down twice in his lifetime before us(Ysh and keepers).

    - - - Updated - - -



    In terms of Azshara.....did....did you even play the game or pay attention to the lore? It's literally explained. She wasn't after the dagger. She wanted us and the heart.
    She did want the dagger, as she was planning on using it against N'zoth (Wrathion had the same plan, hence why Wrathion needed us to rescue her in Nyalotha). As for the Heart, that's a fair argument, but I don't see why she couldn't just pluck it off our water-bloated corpses. Given all the minions she put between us and her, she clearly didn't care if we died on our way to her, and she only cared about our empowering the heart, which had been accomplished at that point. Unless soulbinding has some lore significance, we didn't seem particularly important.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I still don't understand why the Legion, under Lord Kazzak, opened the dark portal. They Legion didn't have any position on Outland to fight against Illidan-Vashj-Kael'thas. I also don't understand how Illidan and company got painted as the bad guys for the expansion.
    Considering the Naaru, under the lead of A'Dal, led the charge against the trio, there is very likely something the Naaru did not tell us. It also did not help the narrative when Voren'thal and the defecting Scryer Blood Elves show up on the doorstep of the ruined Shattrath and surrender to him. Kael'thas may not have been the best person to send the message, either. His Blood Elf saboteurs were what caused the Exodar to crash land on Azeroth, making the Draenei the enemy of Kael'thas and his blood elves right off the rip. Akama also fed us a narrative about how when Magtheridon was defeated in the Black Temple, by Illidan and company, that Karabor had just traded one tyrant in place of a much nastier tyrant. AND... Maiev was still very intent on capturing or killing Illidan.

    There were just too many factors working against them, and no dialect between them to explain each other's positions.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  8. #28
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    5,267
    Archimonde dying in WoD isn't really that big of a stretch. We were infused with a ring that drew from lots of ancients magics in Draenor and were accompanied by pretty legendary heroes during the entire ordeal. Also while in WoW it's depicted that we take down these legendary encounters with 20-40 people, I'd like to imagine powerful threats are usually taken down sort of like how the WoD cinematic was portrayed with hundreds of Orcs harassing Mannoroth. While Grom was the one to give the killing blow, the nuisance the rest of the clans provided can't really be understated.

    Something to keep in mind when comparing Archimonde in WC3 vs WoD is that the one in WC3 literally had a giant army. Archimonde in WoD, at least how he was presented was by himself with occasional bits of him summoning demons. The WC3 one had the literal scourge behind him and numerous lieutenants aiding him that were probably slightly to moderately lower in power than somebody as capable as Mannoroth was.

    Figureheads are strong but most of them aren't really as strong as we think without an actual army behind them. The scourge (I'm just using the story as it was presented in WC3, not modern WoW) was necessary for a few particular reasons. One was to secure an army of Azeroth with no ulterior motives (obviously we learn otherwise) and the second was to require the means necessary to bring power demons to Azeroth such as Archimonde to begin with.

  9. #29
    Never, cause the First Ones' narratives and patterns and whatnot kinda predetermined our fate, regardless of how much we want to "claim" it is ours

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    - The confrontation with the Lich King (We were beaten... only by a strange twist of fate, we were resurrected and won)
    - Archimonde's defeat at Dreanor (It took a lot more to defeat him at Hyjal, so it's a bit strange we defeated him with a bit more ease. He could've wiped us out)
    - Kil'Jaiden's defeat (We mopped the floor with the Legion, only to find out that Sargeras were closeby all along... it could've ended badly!)
    - Argus' defeat (Argus could've and would've murdered us if it weren't for the deus ex machina)
    - N'zoth's defeat (Supposedly, an Azerothian Kamehameha is all that was needed...)

    We've had too many run ins with death...

    I know it's a game and we're meant to win, but it'd be good to occasionally lose, in a gameplay sense. That way we can work on a story where we're the underdogs again!
    The LK shit was forshadowed since 3.0's prepatch with the Ashbringer. Dunno how that went over your head...

    Archimonde was a case of the Heroes namely being the ones taking charge for the first time against a "Cosmic" Main villain tbh, with them wielding the Legendary Rings that harnessed the full fury of the Planets elemental primal magics, sacred tomes, and even blessings from places like the Light VIA Karabor and whatnot. So whole Khadgar and co did help, the fight was namely Archimonde Vs Us with the Legendary Rings' power.

    KJ was a combination of, again, us being badasses and having the right aid with us while we battled it out with the Deceiver at his flagship, and of Illidan not taking any half measures against the Legion.

    With Argus, we were lucky enough to have the Spirits of the Pantheon of Order by our side. It's not at all a Deus Ex, and more of a "thanks for saving us, y'all are badass and are still willing souls capable of survival and life, so allow me to make amends so you can put the Unmaker out of his misery, champions". We also had the fully empowered Artifacts, were amped by power wise by the Titan spirits also, and Argus likely had the durability of a damn banana thanks to him being most made up of spikes keeping him together, and magically imbued space muscle.

    And N'Zoth was a combination of MANY MANY factors, not just the HoA. First of all, we wielded the HoA, which by that time was as powerful, if not more powerful than the Dragon Soul at the time, and beyond that, we were aided by the Chamber of Heart empowering us to even make the Beam happen, the Legendary Cloak (kinda), our impossible to destroy wills (you know damn well my point here), and by...well...EXPERIENCE! Ignore MoP, Ulduar, and Cata, even ignore Classic and whatnot, look at fucking Uldum, the set pieces for N'Zoths defeat were already there.


    Why do you want to be an underdog again? That's never gonna happen. I mean ffs, if the Warrior of Light can save the Cosmos and be revered all throughout, why can't the Champion of Azeroth, who has canonically done this kind of shit for FAR LONGER THAN THE WOL?!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Archimonde dying in WoD isn't really that big of a stretch. We were infused with a ring that drew from lots of ancients magics in Draenor and were accompanied by pretty legendary heroes during the entire ordeal. Also while in WoW it's depicted that we take down these legendary encounters with 20-40 people, I'd like to imagine powerful threats are usually taken down sort of like how the WoD cinematic was portrayed with hundreds of Orcs harassing Mannoroth. While Grom was the one to give the killing blow, the nuisance the rest of the clans provided can't really be understated.

    Something to keep in mind when comparing Archimonde in WC3 vs WoD is that the one in WC3 literally had a giant army. Archimonde in WoD, at least how he was presented was by himself with occasional bits of him summoning demons. The WC3 one had the literal scourge behind him and numerous lieutenants aiding him that were probably slightly to moderately lower in power than somebody as capable as Mannoroth was.

    Figureheads are strong but most of them aren't really as strong as we think without an actual army behind them. The scourge (I'm just using the story as it was presented in WC3, not modern WoW) was necessary for a few particular reasons. One was to secure an army of Azeroth with no ulterior motives (obviously we learn otherwise) and the second was to require the means necessary to bring power demons to Azeroth such as Archimonde to begin with.
    Doesn't help that Archimonde also brought us into a 1 v whatever tf number, prolly around 20 or 23 (?) Heroes (if you include Yrel, Khadgar, and Grom of course) at the Twisting Nether, where he is MOST powerful and also most vulnerable, due to his nature as a Demon by that stage of fel corruption

    - - - Updated - - -

    As for what Villain was the closest to winning? I honestly got 3 choices with 1 honorable mention.

    1. The Lich King. No need to explain this further. Dude killed us and almost won. Lost due to his arrogance.

    2. Deathwing. This guy is usually ignored cause...well...it's Deathwing. He's usually easily forgettable. However, he survived the Dragon Soul, was being pumped by N'Zoths magics (A LOT OF IT, MIND YOU! N'Zoth wasn't risking any form of loss here), and he was about 1 slap of his tentacles away from straight up cracking Azeroth into bits of rock, and destroying the Emerald Dream in its entirety, likely also fucking up the balance between Life and Death in the process...

    He only lost cause the Aspects gave up their powers, which mind you was a MASSIVE sacrifice at the time.

    And 3. Antorus. Sargeras had like...5 cases where he ALMOST won, and it's fucking crazy.

    1. By almost claiming Eonar.

    2. By being SO SO close to completing his Dark Pantheon of Order.

    3. By almost unmaking all of Creation utilizing Argus, and by having him slay us beforehand.

    4. By almost corrupting Azeroth whilist doing that.

    And 5. By stabbing Azeroth just before being imprisoned by the Pantheon of Orders ritual.

    Had it just been a LIL bit longer for each moment, Sargeras would've won. But 7.3 was imo the biggest definition of "that was a close one" loool

    Honorable Mention:

    The Jailer. Tbh...I kinda had to include him. He nearly broke the Cosmic Pattern which balanced the forces and likely gave them their identities and forms of Life, Death, Order, Disorder, Light, and Shadow overall, he nearly destroyed Azeroth and drained her of her essence entirely, he cause almost irreparable damage to the Cosmos through indirect influence also, indirectly caused the Legion, the Void Lords to launch the Old Gods likely into Azeroth or the Dark Beyond entirely, etc, he nearly fucked up every Cosmic Realm and not JUST the Shadowlands, but he was pretty fucking close to dominating every Cosmic Power at the very heart of Eternity, which is a Cosmic control chamber for Deaths very magics and balance, and a place where he can dominate the other Cosmic powers and their hearts as well...

    N'Zoth is also kinda close, but only for a cinematic and I'm ngl...dude was a dummy.

    If you want to know the MAIN reason we defeated the Jailer...well...it's a multitude of reasons. 1. Azeroth aided us. 2. Progenitor armor amps. 3. Crown of Wills. 4. Anima from the Shadowlands aided us. And 5...namely 5...

    The First Ones made the plot and so our victory was already predetermined...so even with the "fate is ours to decide" bulllshit, it was all in the design of the Progenitors anyway
    Last edited by Cosmicpreds; 2022-09-02 at 05:06 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodreh View Post
    The Broken Shore - The Alliance and the Horde were both defeated and sent packing. It was then that Heroes rallied their Class Order Halls and beat back the Legion. Once the Alliance and Horde failed they should have been disbanded then... BfA should never had happened... still salty about that.
    And I'm Still pissed about we get Class Order Halls instead of Racial gathering and progress. It was a perfect opportunity for the races get new buildings, ships new heroes/leaders, quest/storys. Racial armies, like in W3, that's the way we can win against that huge legion's of demons in our doorstep thanks to Illidan.
    If they do that we get more racial identity, not just some forgettable class crap when all priest is a same priest etc....
    Last edited by Loreth88; 2022-09-02 at 05:58 AM.

  11. #31
    The Patient Zendhal The Black's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Proxima Centauri
    Posts
    339
    In wotlk, there should have been a "failed" assault on Icecrown that would result in a crushing defeat by Lich King (maybe even first raid instead of Naxx) and then there would be argent tournament where Tirion train champions against LK

    Cataclysm detto, raid where Deathwing (in human form!!!!) whoops our arses and then we go against him

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    We had resurrection quests prior to that point, though. The Horde has a questline in Borean Tundra all focused on resurrecting a dead shaman, for instance. It was definitely rare, but it's been a thing since WC3 paladins.
    There are a lot of quests in the game that acknolwedge game mechanics. There's a forsaken quest where YOU are the quest giver for a bunch of NPCs, and it's basically WoW poking fun at itself at that point. There's also a quest that has a dragon in love with a Spirit Healer, one in which you've got to kill yourself to actually meet with. I don't really consider EITHER of these two quests to be something that the actual lore team actually upholds as 'This is a real thing within our world' because at that point you've got to question just how much of the in game mechanics actually exist within Warcraft.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Highlord Hanibuhl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    3,205
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The LK shit was forshadowed since 3.0's prepatch with the Ashbringer. Dunno how that went over your head...
    There's something about internet-anonimity that makes people say crazy stuff that they wouldn't say in person. Don't be a dick! Who says it went over my head?

    I merely stated that we were supposed to die. In fact.. we had died, were it not for the resurrection. If that had failed, we would have served the Lich King as his Death Knight elite squad.

  14. #34
    Pandaren Monk ThatsOurEric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,837
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    I also wonder if Lei Shen was just weak enough to be killed or if he held back and was killed because of his own mistake.
    IIRC, his reawakening was incomplete, so he wasn't at full power.

    Yeah.. I sometimes wonder if Algalon 'gave us the win' because he saw the future a bit and knew what was gonna happen anyway.
    Nah, as stated by someone else, he had a change of heart when he saw how fiercely the Champions of Azeroth were fighting to protect their world.

  15. #35
    We lost with Illidan when he was on his death-bed and we also lost to LK.

    If it wasn't for Maiev and Tyrion we would've been dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    Cataclysm detto, raid where Deathwing (in human form!!!!) whoops our arses and then we go against him
    I'd love that! The human form of Deathwing wasn't even used in the raid, which makes me sad.

  16. #36
    Pandaren Monk ThatsOurEric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,837
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    The Lich King Fight, plain and simple.

    Before that point in WoW's history (And outside of certain quests, ever sense), Resurrection has always been a game mechanic and never something that actually happens within the context of the character's existence. If you were dead, then that was it. While it's thematic for the fight and one could argue that Terenas, being a spirit and connected to Frostmorne, could resurrect those fighting against Arthas, it still takes away the aspect that Life and Death should MEAN something within the world. just having a revolving door where people could come back without issue just ruins any sense of suspense.
    In fairness, one of the greatest champions of The Light asked for a miracle during that encounter in order to save us. Had he not done that,
    it would've been over.

  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Highlord Hanibuhl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    3,205
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    IIRC, his reawakening was incomplete, so he wasn't at full power.



    Nah, as stated by someone else, he had a change of heart when he saw how fiercely the Champions of Azeroth were fighting to protect their world.
    Yeah that makes sense

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    In wotlk, there should have been a "failed" assault on Icecrown that would result in a crushing defeat by Lich King (maybe even first raid instead of Naxx) and then there would be argent tournament where Tirion train champions against LK

    Cataclysm detto, raid where Deathwing (in human form!!!!) whoops our arses and then we go against him
    I love the ideas. It would have added tension and stakes to the story.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    In fairness, one of the greatest champions of The Light asked for a miracle during that encounter in order to save us. Had he not done that,
    it would've been over.
    Oh yeah, no doubt! Like I said, it's thematic for an expansion about us fighting the Lich King, the actual lord of the undead, for us to be brought back from the dead to be able to take him down. And had they left it simply at that, I'd probably be fine with it. It's further delving into the realm of the dead and playing jump rope with it that I eventually had a problem with.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    In wotlk, there should have been a "failed" assault on Icecrown that would result in a crushing defeat by Lich King (maybe even first raid instead of Naxx) and then there would be argent tournament where Tirion train champions against LK

    Cataclysm detto, raid where Deathwing (in human form!!!!) whoops our arses and then we go against him
    We did have a failed assault, Dragonblight questlinea and Wrathgate cinematic.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •