Poll: Was Hillary Right?

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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If we're talking on the national scale, that's the approach Neville Chamberlain pushed for with appeasement.
    Wrong. I wasn't talking about appeasement, but about finding common ground.

    Added: and you missed the other parts. Germany paid a heavy price for WWI; changing that may have averted WWII - but it was too late when Neville Chamberlain got into power. The Marshall plan showed a better way after WWII.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And if you've tried this and they've dug their heels in and refused to engage in the same good faith?
    You see if you have missed anything, and re-asses and try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Is it alright to call a spade a spade at that point? Or should we continue to be worried that calling a spade a spade will result in the spade getting violently angry because they were called a spade?
    You should be working towards winning, not futile symbolic victories.

    Hillary Clinton allegedly claims that using the phrase helped her lose and Trump win. Do you question her analysis?
    Last edited by Forogil; 2022-09-06 at 08:38 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    You see if you have missed anything, and re-asses and try again.
    Is there a stopping point where you realize your efforts are futile? Or is it on literally everyone else to treat increasingly extremist right wing reactionaries with kid gloves for all eternity let we accidentally trigger them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    You should be working towards winning, not futile symbolic victories.
    And you can do that while correctly calling out extremists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Hillary Clinton allegedly claims that using the phrase helped her lose and Trump win. Do you question her analysis?
    It was a factor, sure. But I'd argue the late re-opening of her case regarding emails by the FBI was a bigger factor. Also Americans voting on "who they like personally" more than voting on platforms and competency, as we clearly saw when Americans elected arguably the least qualified individual to the highest office in the land instead of arguably the most qualified candidate who has ever run for that position.

    And since her comment, she's only been proven right time and time again. I'm all for persuading the persuadable voters. But eventually you have to acknowledge that there are some who can't be persuaded, and consequently you stop wasting time on them until they're ready to open up their minds a bit.

  3. #83
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Wrong. I wasn't talking about appeasement, but about finding common ground.
    In many cases, there is no common ground. If someone's a literal Nazi, there is no "common ground" to be had, and suggesting I find some with a Nazi is, itself, deeply offensive.

    Feel free to replace "Nazi" with any other abusive creed, like the KKK or any flavor of ethnonationalism or religious extremism. We can talk about "common ground" when their abuses have been stopped permanently and disavowed by all remaining.


  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Is there a stopping point where you realize your efforts are futile? Or is it on literally everyone else to treat increasingly extremist right wing reactionaries with kid gloves for all eternity let we accidentally trigger them?
    I didn't say that you should treat them with kid gloves, but pick up those gloves if you find that little league helps you connect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And you can do that while correctly calling out extremists.
    Doubtful - as it mostly entrenches views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It was a factor, sure.
    Exactly - so was it worth the symbolic victory? Or would it have been better to not call out extremists and be more likely to actually win?

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In many cases, there is no common ground. If someone's a literal Nazi, there is no "common ground" to be had, and suggesting I find some with a Nazi is, itself, deeply offensive.

    Feel free to replace "Nazi" with any other abusive creed, like the KKK or any flavor of ethnonationalism or religious extremism. We can talk about "common ground" when their abuses have been stopped permanently and disavowed by all remaining.
    But see, this is where someone has to ask...then what's your plan? I would remind you that you're not talking about a foreign power or someone we can go to war with.

    You've decided that half the nation are "Nazis" and that you cannot deal with them. So...now what? What do you want to do from there? What's your plan for the future if you just say that half (Or 40% whatever) of US citizens are irredeemable Nazis?

  6. #86
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    But see, this is where someone has to ask...then what's your plan? I would remind you that you're not talking about a foreign power or someone we can go to war with.

    You've decided that half the nation are "Nazis" and that you cannot deal with them. So...now what? What do you want to do from there? What's your plan for the future if you just say that half (Or 40% whatever) of US citizens are irredeemable Nazis?
    Time. That's the plan. They'll die off, and their kids are increasingly progressive.

    Sure, it's possible they're a large enough bloc they can seize democratic control, but if that's the case, that's how the country as you know it ends. Which happens. Modern Germany isn't the Weimar Republic, after all. I'm not proposing pre-emptive action to forestall this, or something, if that's what you're driving at. I don't need to have a "plan" on how to deal with the existence of people whose views I find untenable.

    In the interim, I'm perfectly satisfied exposing their malice publicly, to invite ridicule and mockery and opposition. That's a perfectly serviceable "plan". Why would we need anything further?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Doubtful - as it mostly entrenches views.
    Calling out extremists isn't intended to change the extremists. It's meant to marginalize and ostracize them.


  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Wrong. I wasn't talking about appeasement, but about finding common ground.
    MAGA Republicans are welcome to make that effort at any time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Hillary Clinton allegedly claims that using the phrase helped her lose and Trump win. Do you question her analysis?
    Yes. Republicans and conservative Democrats were never going to vote for Hillary Clinton.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  8. #88
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If we're talking on the national scale, that's the approach Neville Chamberlain pushed for with appeasement.

    Ask France how that worked out for everyone.



    Why? Because the deplorables might get angry enough to get violent?

    If it's because it bothers them, their positions involve far more abusive attacks on innocents, so they can put up with being correctly and properly described until they voluntarily stop being abusive dickweeds to innocent people. You seem to be ignoring that this is all a response to pre-existing malicious conduct and abuse by these individuals. Calling them "deplorable" isn't firing the first rhetorical shot.
    Let's not forget that even Orwell wrote about how "pacifism" in the face of fascism is just enabling fascism.

    https://matiane.wordpress.com/2019/1...george-orwell/

    Seems like a "no duh" moment, but so many people believe that just rolling over and attempting to appease fascists will make their violent and hateful world views go away.

    Hint: It won't.

    Fascism has to be snuffed out.

    Picking up the little league gloves and playing baseball with them isn't magically going to make their violent and hateful ideology go away. It may make one another less hostile towards the other, but as we've seen the right isn't into compromise. They preach compromise, then demand the left "compromise" by giving them everything they want.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2022-09-07 at 12:22 AM.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Time. That's the plan. They'll die off, and their kids are increasingly progressive.

    Sure, it's possible they're a large enough bloc they can seize democratic control, but if that's the case, that's how the country as you know it ends. Which happens. Modern Germany isn't the Weimar Republic, after all. I'm not proposing pre-emptive action to forestall this, or something, if that's what you're driving at. I don't need to have a "plan" on how to deal with the existence of people whose views I find untenable.

    In the interim, I'm perfectly satisfied exposing their malice publicly, to invite ridicule and mockery and opposition. That's a perfectly serviceable "plan". Why would we need anything further?
    So "do nothing" which is somehow better than discourse or anything else.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    So "do nothing" which is somehow better than discourse or anything else.
    What other alternatives do you think exist that haven't been explored?

  11. #91
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Let's not forget that even Orwell wrote about how "pacifism" in the face of fascism is just enabling fascism.

    https://matiane.wordpress.com/2019/1...george-orwell/

    Seems like a "no duh" moment, but so many people believe that just rolling over and attempting to appease fascists will make their violent and hateful world views go away.

    Hint: It won't.

    Fascism has to be snuffed out.
    I'm uncomfortable with the idea of State-level programs to purge fascism violently, in the sense of execution.

    But State-level violence in terms of criminalization of certain abusive actions, like spreading hate propaganda, sure. That "violence" is just law enforcement, like it is with literally every other crime. That's what the "State monopoly on violence" means, for those who don't get that; it isn't that violence is "bad", it's that the State is the only one entitled to institutional practices of violence, like law enforcement.

    And on a personal level, punching a fucking Nazi in the face is the kind of thing that shouldn't even be prosecuted. See a swastika armband and it's not Halloween, and you should be permitted to defend yourself violently against the genocide they are explicitly advocating by wearing that garb or pushing that rhetoric. It's self-defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    So "do nothing" which is somehow better than discourse or anything else.
    Like I said above; I'm uncomfortable with State doctrines that go further than the kind of hate speech laws we already have in Canada. They push too close to the same villainy that fascism touts for comfort. I don't see that such methods are ever justifiable.

    But there's a lot of room around that. Plus, you seem to have completely skipped the last paragraph you quoted, for some reason. If free speech and ridicule weren't so effective at suppressing and marginalizing fascism, fascists wouldn't oppose free speech so strongly. It's hard to pull the "macho defender of all that's good and right" when people are pointing out how tiny and pathetic your little fascist weiner is.


  12. #92
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm uncomfortable with the idea of State-level programs to purge fascism violently, in the sense of execution.

    But State-level violence in terms of criminalization of certain abusive actions, like spreading hate propaganda, sure. That "violence" is just law enforcement, like it is with literally every other crime. That's what the "State monopoly on violence" means, for those who don't get that; it isn't that violence is "bad", it's that the State is the only one entitled to institutional practices of violence, like law enforcement.

    And on a personal level, punching a fucking Nazi in the face is the kind of thing that shouldn't even be prosecuted. See a swastika armband and it's not Halloween, and you should be permitted to defend yourself violently against the genocide they are explicitly advocating by wearing that garb or pushing that rhetoric. It's self-defense.
    I'm not advocating for state level violence. But it needs to be made harshly clear that hateful and violent ideology are not welcome in public discourse. There is no "compromise" with the kinds of people who refuse leases to minorities and call immigrants rapists.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What other alternatives do you think exist that haven't been explored?
    I don't know the one right answer, naturally. Clearly no one does.

    It's just that I don't see how, "40% of the nation is awful and I don't think anyone should talk with them, reason with them, or try to expose better ideas and concepts." (Which has historically worked.)

    And don't lecture me on appeasement, because "do nothing" isn't any better. I'm not saying to appease anyone anyway, I'm saying to try to educate. Like with abortion, we're actually seeing people in real time come to the realization that it's not about killing babes to power electric plants. That these policies actually do harm real people. Getting the ideas out in the air, bringing them to the people that need them, this actually works.

  14. #94
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    I don't know the one right answer, naturally. Clearly no one does.

    It's just that I don't see how, "40% of the nation is awful and I don't think anyone should talk with them, reason with them, or try to expose better ideas and concepts." (Which has historically worked.)
    Dude, no it hasn't.

    The rise of abolitionism in the USA led inexorably to one of the bloodiest civil wars in global history, because the racist slavers didn't want to give up their abuses.
    The rise of civil rights in the USA was similarly, inexorably violent. Martin Luther King Jr. came to terms, later in his career, that he movement wouldn't have had any chance of succeeding without the violence pushed by the likes of Malcolm X; his rhetoric would have fallen on deaf ears without that threat looming behind him.
    Abortion, come the fuck on, we've had abortion clinic bombings, doctors murdered, and that shit's starting up again with a fervor in the aftermath of Roe v. Wade being overturned. And that's without acknowledging the State-sponsored violence against women that anti-abortion laws are. We've had 50 years, and Roe v. Wade's step forward has been more than reversed. So much for rhetoric and letting people "come to the realization".

    You seem far too willing to ignore the very real violent consequences behind every civil rights movement, and how violence has fundamentally been needed in nearly every instance to shift the needle, even temporarily.


  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    It's just that I don't see how, "40% of the nation is awful and I don't think anyone should talk with them, reason with them, or try to expose better ideas and concepts." (Which has historically worked.)
    Which has historically not worked in the US, hence why we're literally in this position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    I'm not saying to appease anyone anyway, I'm saying to try to educate.
    Education requires willing pupils.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Like with abortion, we're actually seeing people in real time come to the realization that it's not about killing babes to power electric plants.
    That's a gross misread of what's happened on that topic lately, which is a reflection of how grossly out-of-step with the mainstream that extremist Republicans are. And have been, for years, as there's years of polling backing up their extremist positions as deeply unpopular, often even amongst their own party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    That these policies actually do harm real people.
    Honestly, the only effective "education" on this topic is largely when Republicans are personally involved in the issue through a family member. And even then it's fairly spotty - see the Rep. that voted against protecting gay marriage and then went to his gay sons wedding.

    Remember those horror stories about the 10 year old girl who was raped and had to travel for an abortion? Republicans still refuse to engage with that reality. The stories about the women forced to carry dangerous pregnancies? They didn't change minds, and we saw Republicans similarly doubling down on, "Giving birth to the child of your rapist is a great way to begin the healing process."

    So no, I don't buy what you're saying in the slightest. In any way, shape, or form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Getting the ideas out in the air, bringing them to the people that need them, this actually works.
    Honestly the whole notion of the "marketplace of ideas" is fairly bunk given that it doesn't actually exist, nor are ideas "winning" or "losing" based on their merits. They're "winning" or "losing" based on how effective algorithms are at directing people towards their interests and then feeding them content that reinforces their views to maximize their time on whatever platform they're on.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Dude, no it hasn't.

    The rise of abolitionism in the USA led inexorably to one of the bloodiest civil wars in global history, because the racist slavers didn't want to give up their abuses.
    The rise of civil rights in the USA was similarly, inexorably violent. Martin Luther King Jr. came to terms, later in his career, that he movement wouldn't have had any chance of succeeding without the violence pushed by the likes of Malcolm X; his rhetoric would have fallen on deaf ears without that threat looming behind him.
    Abortion, come the fuck on, we've had abortion clinic bombings, doctors murdered, and that shit's starting up again with a fervor in the aftermath of Roe v. Wade being overturned. And that's without acknowledging the State-sponsored violence against women that anti-abortion laws are. We've had 50 years, and Roe v. Wade's step forward has been more than reversed. So much for rhetoric and letting people "come to the realization".

    You seem far too willing to ignore the very real violent consequences behind every civil rights movement, and how violence has fundamentally been needed in nearly every instance to shift the needle, even temporarily.
    Ok, continue to lecture others on courses of action, Mr. Just Don't Do Anything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Which has historically not worked in the US, hence why we're literally in this position.

    Education requires willing pupils.

    That's a gross misread of what's happened on that topic lately, which is a reflection of how grossly out-of-step with the mainstream that extremist Republicans are. And have been, for years, as there's years of polling backing up their extremist positions as deeply unpopular, often even amongst their own party.

    Honestly, the only effective "education" on this topic is largely when Republicans are personally involved in the issue through a family member. And even then it's fairly spotty - see the Rep. that voted against protecting gay marriage and then went to his gay sons wedding.

    Remember those horror stories about the 10 year old girl who was raped and had to travel for an abortion? Republicans still refuse to engage with that reality. The stories about the women forced to carry dangerous pregnancies? They didn't change minds, and we saw Republicans similarly doubling down on, "Giving birth to the child of your rapist is a great way to begin the healing process."

    So no, I don't buy what you're saying in the slightest. In any way, shape, or form.

    Honestly the whole notion of the "marketplace of ideas" is fairly bunk given that it doesn't actually exist, nor are ideas "winning" or "losing" based on their merits. They're "winning" or "losing" based on how effective algorithms are at directing people towards their interests and then feeding them content that reinforces their views to maximize their time on whatever platform they're on.
    I mean, I know people personally who have changed their stance on the topic recently. Just from having the facts about it explained to them. (When most abortions happen, why they happen, typical health issues, etc)

    So yeah, you can do that. If nothing else, it's better than the head-in-the-sand approach.

  17. #97
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Ok, continue to lecture others on courses of action, Mr. Just Don't Do Anything.
    There was a whole lot of "doing something" in what I just listed off, so you're clearly just baiting at this point.


  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    I mean, I know people personally who have changed their stance on the topic recently. Just from having the facts about it explained to them. (When most abortions happen, why they happen, typical health issues, etc)
    You seem to be friends with a lot of unicorns.

    The consequences of abortion bans and restrictions were explained to conservatives. The vast majority of them still ignore it. The only reason some of them are even giving a micrometer on the issue is because the fallout and the horror resulting from some stories (10 year old rape victim anyone?) are actually managing to reach what little conscience they have. It's not because the consequences were explained to them. It's because the consequences they wrote off as liberal overreaction actually came true.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  19. #99
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    You seem to be friends with a lot of unicorns.

    The consequences of abortion bans and restrictions were explained to conservatives. The vast majority of them still ignore it. The only reason some of them are even giving a micrometer on the issue is because the fallout and the horror resulting from some stories (10 year old rape victim anyone?) are actually managing to reach what little conscience they have. It's not because the consequences were explained to them. It's because the consequences they wrote off as liberal overreaction actually came true.
    I wouldn't even give them the benefit of "their conscience" reaching them. More like "turns out robbing women of their bodily autonomy isn't as popular a campaign issue as they believed." So they wouldn't publicly say they support the abortion ban, but they aren't going to do anything to overturn it.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  20. #100
    It is difficult to find common ground with a person that does not accept reality (i.e. believes in multiple conspiracies that are disprovable). It is difficult when they refuse to look at and/or accept evidence. It is difficult when no matter how much you try to show them, to educate them, they refuse.

    And when it comes to shaming, sure - it does not work on everyone, but it works on some people. I also think it's important to be aggressive against these sorts of beliefs and behaviours due to how dangerous they are. We can't necessarily afford to go "easy" on them.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

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