Poll: Was Hillary Right?

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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Time. That's the plan. They'll die off, and their kids are increasingly progressive.
    Another bad plan based on false assumptions.

    That's not how opinion develop in the US - at least not if you want anything done in less than a century. For instance: since the 1980s the Gallup polls show that support for abortion has been fairly constant, people rejecting human evolution has possibly declined from 44% to 40%; the number in favor of the death penalty went from 60% to 54% (it was 59% back in 1937) - and it peaked in 1953 and again in 1995.

    Some opinions do change - but it is not because people die off and are replaced by more progressive ones, but because the general mood changes - like same-sex marriage - more than a third even say they changed their opinions in the polls. That's what happens when people actually engage with others.

    It's also similar to another previous bad plan: the idea circulating a few decades back that democrats would soon be winning everything due to the demographic shift.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In the interim, I'm perfectly satisfied exposing their malice publicly, to invite ridicule and mockery and opposition. That's a perfectly serviceable "plan".
    Laziness is the proper name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    It is difficult to find common ground with a person that does not accept reality (i.e. believes in multiple conspiracies that are disprovable).
    One of the biggest predictors of people believing in a conspiracy theory is that they believe in other conspiracy theories.

  2. #102
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Laziness is the proper name.
    As opposed to what, exactly?

    They can't be educated out of their views. Forcing that would be what we call "brainwashing", anyway.

    So if discussion can't work, and you're rejecting social opposition, what's that leave us that you think is a better option? Because from where I stand, the only other option on the table is "start shooting them in the head".


  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Another bad plan based on false assumptions.

    That's not how opinion develop in the US - at least not if you want anything done in less than a century. For instance: since the 1980s the Gallup polls show that support for abortion has been fairly constant, people rejecting human evolution has possibly declined from 44% to 40%; the number in favor of the death penalty went from 60% to 54% (it was 59% back in 1937) - and it peaked in 1953 and again in 1995.

    Some opinions do change - but it is not because people die off and are replaced by more progressive ones, but because the general mood changes - like same-sex marriage - more than a third even say they changed their opinions in the polls. That's what happens when people actually engage with others.

    It's also similar to another previous bad plan: the idea circulating a few decades back that democrats would soon be winning everything due to the demographic shift.
    That's the point - there is no short term plan to help the United States. And things will likely get worse in the U.S. while the GQP continues to scramble for the most outrageous conservative position possible (see other thread re Roe and rape/incest exceptions being removed).

    The GQP has found a way for a desperately hateful minority to hold control over the majority. And our political machinations don't allow for a criminal group taking the reins. We are fucked, for at least a generation.

  4. #104
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As opposed to what, exactly?

    They can't be educated out of their views. Forcing that would be what we call "brainwashing", anyway.

    So if discussion can't work, and you're rejecting social opposition, what's that leave us that you think is a better option? Because from where I stand, the only other option on the table is "start shooting them in the head".
    People like Forogil are the type who think that discussion and compromise would acctually work on the 50% of more radicalized conservatives. It doesn't. And it won't. There's absolutely no reason to appease or compromise with people whose idea of compromise is "give me everything we want and we'll stop hating you and think you're good people again".

    If discussion and compromise worked, Trump wouldn't have happened. Liberals were trying to compromise across the aisle with conservatives for the better part of two decades. And they always spit on liberal hands. So many bills under Obama gave something to both parties that they wanted. And conservatives always shot them down. Because any bill that included Democrats getting something they wanted to was regarded as vile.

    There is no compromise with these people. It's been tried. And to continue to try would be lunacy.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As opposed to what, exactly?
    Proposals have been given - including a reference. (But not name-calling - read your own signature to understand why.)

    Whereas your claim was that the problem would solve itself by a new generation - and that hope is vain as the previous hope that a demographic shift would solve the issue.

  6. #106
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Proposals have been given - including a reference. (But not name-calling - read your own signature to understand why.)

    Whereas your claim was that the problem would solve itself by a new generation - and that hope is vain as the previous hope that a demographic shift would solve the issue.
    Proposals by who? The Republicans in power that can do anything always spit on any proffered compromise.

    Proposals on these forums? I hope you realize just how meaningless that is.

    Nobody in the conservative sphere who has any degree of influence or power has been open to compromise. They are actively hostile to compromise.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    People like Forogil are the type who think that discussion and compromise would acctually work on the 50% of more radicalized conservatives. It doesn't. And it won't. There's absolutely no reason to appease or compromise with people whose idea of compromise is "give me everything we want and we'll stop hating you and think you're good people again".

    If discussion and compromise worked, Trump wouldn't have happened. Liberals were trying to compromise across the aisle with conservatives for the better part of two decades. And they always spit on liberal hands. So many bills under Obama gave something to both parties that they wanted. And conservatives always shot them down. Because any bill that included Democrats getting something they wanted to was regarded as vile.

    There is no compromise with these people. It's been tried. And to continue to try would be lunacy.
    Don't think anyone said "compromise". I think most of the legislative compromises made in recent years by the dems were pretty dumb given who they were working with.

    I'm talking about not writing off half the nation as "Just Nazis" who we can never talk to again or something. That's just social media/politics bubble nonsense.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Don't think anyone said "compromise". I think most of the legislative compromises made in recent years by the dems were pretty dumb given who they were working with.

    I'm talking about not writing off half the nation as "Just Nazis" who we can never talk to again or something. That's just social media/politics bubble nonsense.
    Speaking of political bubble nonsense, they're not half, they're not even a third. And they're welcome to rejoin civil society as soon as they stop acting like nazis.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Proposals by who?
    If you had read the thread you would have know the answer, and see that it referenced an academic who specialize in studying and preventing the bad outcomes, but slightly misspelled her name, it is Barbara F. Walter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Proposals on these forums? I hope you realize just how meaningless that is.
    Considering that many posters don't read before responding?

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    If you had read the thread you would have know the answer, and see that it referenced an academic who specialize in studying and preventing the bad outcomes, but slightly misspelled her name, it is Barbara F. Walter.
    You said you disagreed with her on one point, and the other was just "find common ground and make sure they're not left behind." It's nonsense. There's no common ground with fascists. You can't prevent people from being left behind when they refuse a ride and insist on being left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    You said you disagreed with her on one point,
    Specifically, about having the government regulate social media platforms for rather obvious reasons.

    And for the rest: you can continue to believe that the US is so very special and that no other country has overcome larger divisions; or you can face reality. Your choice.

    Added: In particular thinking that racism is worse in the US than under Apartheid in S. Africa, or sexism is worse than in the early 1900s in many countries (US included) when women couldn't vote.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2022-09-13 at 08:15 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And for the rest: you can continue to believe that the US is so very special and that no other country has overcome larger divisions; or you can face reality. Your choice.
    What were those countries with larger divisions that didn't either just leave the regressives behind, descend into violence, or both?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  13. #113
    Immortal unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    The faux enlightened middle coming out I see.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  14. #114
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Don't think anyone said "compromise". I think most of the legislative compromises made in recent years by the dems were pretty dumb given who they were working with.

    I'm talking about not writing off half the nation as "Just Nazis" who we can never talk to again or something. That's just social media/politics bubble nonsense.
    People are not writing off half the nation. They're writing off the 30% of the nation that still backs Trump as just nazis. These are the people who went HARD in on the tea party, and went hard in on Trump. They respond immediately and positively to racist and xenophobic propaganda. They spit in the face of anyone who doesn't think like them or believe like them. There is no middle ground with these people, not because nobody hasn't tried, but because these people are absolute in their beliefs. They all still believe Trump won the election and it was rigged. Ironic considering they were saying Dems would claim rigging if Trump won, but we know they like to project.

    When these people are ready to engage with polite society again, they're welcome to drop their utterly racist views. But until then, we're pretty much sick of trying to parlay with people who spit in our faces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    If you had read the thread you would have know the answer, and see that it referenced an academic who specialize in studying and preventing the bad outcomes, but slightly misspelled her name, it is Barbara F. Walter.


    Considering that many posters don't read before responding?
    So proposals once again made by someone who has zero power to affect change. I didn't need to read before, because I know what all of these proposed compromises are. They're either concern trolls from the Trump camp trying to dishonestly lie that liberals aren't compromising, or "woke" liberals who claim that if we just act nice to these people they'll surely come around.

    Clearly, the second camp haven't been awake for the last 20 years, as that has been attempted, and always fails.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  15. #115
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Sure she was but also wrong (to say), stupid thing to say. Alianating people for their lack of knowledge (whatnot) is rather detrimental..
    Last edited by Bakis; 2022-09-17 at 09:40 AM.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Sure she was but also wrong (to say), stupid thing to say. Alianating people for their lack of knowledge (whatnot) is rather detrimental..
    Alienating people for their lack of knowledge is one thing. These folks were alienated for refusing to believe any and all evidence that their Orange Idiot was a compulsive lying con man. The fact that there's some out there that still believe in a stolen election, or that the country was better under Trump are deluded and should be shamed for their continued support of a fraud.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

    I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)

  17. #117
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Sure she was but also wrong (to say), stupid thing to say. Alianating people for their lack of knowledge (whatnot) is rather detrimental..
    In what way?

    There isn't a single person who took personal affront over being labelled a "deplorable" who would ever vote for a Democrat, even if the Democratic candidate was Literally Jesus Himself The Lord Our Christ, and the Republican candidate was literally just a piece of dogshit. An actual fecund log deposited on the stage by a passing Saint Bernard. They'd be ranting about how Jesus is a socialist commie for wanting to help people, and how the dogshit's never hung out with whores.

    Hillary making that crack cost the Democrats nothing. The only people it pissed off were never gonna support a Democrat for anything, ever, anyway.


  18. #118
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Abbott and DeSantis and their supporters are proving that indeed the Email Lady was right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Let's just say that your political opponents are Nazis.

    What then is the solution? Even if Democrats win elections I still don't think there's anything they could do that would satisfy leftist progressives... I think the reality of the situation here is just that it will take time to convince conservatives that liberal principles are more universal and therefore superior, and that these values optimize the rate of progress for everyone.
    Not interested in trying to convinced entrenched idiots who still think Trump won the election.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In what way?

    There isn't a single person who took personal affront over being labelled a "deplorable" who would ever vote for a Democrat, even if the Democratic candidate was Literally Jesus Himself The Lord Our Christ, and the Republican candidate was literally just a piece of dogshit. An actual fecund log deposited on the stage by a passing Saint Bernard. They'd be ranting about how Jesus is a socialist commie for wanting to help people, and how the dogshit's never hung out with whores.

    Hillary making that crack cost the Democrats nothing. The only people it pissed off were never gonna support a Democrat for anything, ever, anyway.
    Same people who threw a fit about Biden's speech a few weeks ago.

    Biden was explicit that he was talking about what he viewed as a minority, but every republican acted like they were being personally attacked.
    Putin khuliyo

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Same people who threw a fit about Biden's speech a few weeks ago.

    Biden was explicit that he was talking about what he viewed as a minority, but every republican acted like they were being personally attacked.
    Exactly, when I say that some of my political opponents are communists that should be blackballed out of society, it's a real mystery why people who aren't communists would get offended by that.

  20. #120
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Exactly, when I say that some of my political opponents are communists that should be blackballed out of society, it's a real mystery why people who aren't communists would get offended by that.
    I'd be more curious exactly who you think is a "communist", and what possible reasons you'd have to want to blackball them.


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