Is it time to remove Normal/Heroic dungeons? They are uselesss since M+

[mitrooper]

"Is it time to remove Normal/Heroic dungeons? They are useless since M+"

No. They are not useless.

[Azerox]

Most people playing this game never touch M+ or anything higher then LFR.

[Th3Scourge]

Yes they should remove normal and heroic mode dungeons.

M0 should be the baseline difficulty and should replace normal mode dungeons. They could just remove the term 'mythic difficulty' and this would just be baseline. This could be used for leveling purposes too. M+ keystones would not drop for anyone under max-level

M+ can just be the sliding difficulty for everything else at max level. Heroic serves zero purpose now, and normal can just be mythic.

[Djaye]

Heroics reward is too low to be actually rewarding, that is the case with alot of current content in WoW.

but it isnt when you just hit max level. most players rely on Heroics to get their first set for raiding and a ton also rely on it afterwards for mats, tokens and such. its also where you learn mythics as a tank (at least for me). its the best place to try new routes and such, much quicker and with far less stress. it is a vital tier to the gearing process for most casuals and even alot of more hardcore players

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Most people playing this game never touch M+ or anything higher then LFR.

also, this

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Yes they should remove normal and heroic mode dungeons.

M0 should be the baseline difficulty and should replace normal mode dungeons. They could just remove the term 'mythic difficulty' and this would just be baseline. This could be used for leveling purposes too. M+ keystones would not drop for anyone under max-level

M+ can just be the sliding difficulty for everything else at max level. Heroic serves zero purpose now, and normal can just be mythic.

they tried this in Cata and too many cried up a storm. heroics were harder than current +15's and people protested

[Nymrohd]

I don't think Heroic has a place, mostly because M0 doesn't have a timer, so it sits in the awkward place where it's basically Heroic, but harder. Realistically they could probably drop Heroic, make mythic a little easier, and you'd still have your progression from levelling dungeons(normal) -> early max level gearing(Mythic) -> max level gearing(M+)

As long as match making access was added to base Mythic in that version ofc.

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but it isnt when you just hit max level. most players rely on Heroics to get their first set for raiding and a ton also rely on it afterwards for mats, tokens and such. its also where you learn mythics as a tank (at least for me). its the best place to try new routes and such, much quicker and with far less stress. it is a vital tier to the gearing process for most casuals and even alot of more hardcore players

That may have been true once. In Legion and BfA world quests and emissaries would gear you up with better gear than dungeons fairly fast. In Shadowlands it was true at release (and again, the renown armor you got from the campaign was better) but the moment we got Korthia gear from that zone was just far better (and you could try the rares for more specific loot) not to mention Zereth Mortis. Imo a Matchmaking version of base Mythic can replace Heroic just fine.

[Nymrohd]

Early mythic doesn't really need much and you mostly get instant invites with everything anyway.

On launch day, base mythic is slightly challenging. For quite a few people who play this game it'd be like Cataclysm dungeons and often questlines require you to run the dungeons at max level. So yeah it would probably have to go to the level of heroic? Or somewhat higher and have normal version of the max level dungeons as well?

[Th3Scourge]

but it isnt when you just hit max level. most players rely on Heroics to get their first set for raiding and a ton also rely on it afterwards for mats, tokens and such. its also where you learn mythics as a tank (at least for me). its the best place to try new routes and such, much quicker and with far less stress. it is a vital tier to the gearing process for most casuals and even alot of more hardcore players

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also, this

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they tried this in Cata and too many cried up a storm. heroics were harder than current +15's and people protested

No just de-tune it. M0 can be the same difficulty level as normal, since normal/heroic/M0 have no affixes anyway. I'd just remove the entire reference to 'mythic' altogether and just call them keystone dungeons for another above current M0

I'm not saying that the base offering needs to be harder, what I'm saying is they should be looking for ways to streamline content where they can. Having multiple drop-down menus with 'normal', 'heroic' etc is not intuitive or needed anymore

[Twdft]

I'm not saying that the base offering needs to be harder, what I'm saying is they should be looking for ways to streamline content where they can. Having multiple drop-down menus with 'normal', 'heroic' etc is not intuitive or needed anymore

There are people who want to play dungeons, but do not want to manually form or apply to groups. Click a button, wait a bit, get in 100%. These people have normal while leveling and dinging max level, and they have heroic as their endgame. There is no reason at all to take it away from them and making them apply to manual groups.

[Marxman]

I do think Heroic dungeons are a little redundant.

We have:
Normal: Leveling dungeons, very very early gearing.
Heroic: Very, very early gearing.
Mythic 0: Early gearing.
M+: Actual progression and gearing.

Why do we need Heroic at all anymore? Just make M0 queueable and remove Heroic.

[Battlebeard]

Heroic seems useless. Just remove it and nerf M0 a bit.

[Lochton]

I do think Heroic dungeons are a little redundant.

We have:
Normal: Leveling dungeons, very very early gearing.
Heroic: Very, very early gearing.
Mythic 0: Early gearing.
M+: Actual progression and gearing.

Why do we need Heroic at all anymore? Just make M0 queueable and remove Heroic.

But this just tells me that M0 should go away? Heroic holds more history and is already queueable. You don't really need M0 for much for the overall setup. Heroic is a good and solid intro dungeon for basic raiding intro-gear, and you do not need to worry if you are meta enough, certain score, or item level (and no, in S4 they don't care but in S1, when an expansion starts, a lot do).

[Marxman]

I also wouldn't be opposed to that. Either way, either Heroic or M0 needs to not exist. It's completely redundant.

[Th3Scourge]

There are people who want to play dungeons, but do not want to manually form or apply to groups. Click a button, wait a bit, get in 100%. These people have normal while leveling and dinging max level, and they have heroic as their endgame. There is no reason at all to take it away from them and making them apply to manual groups.

I don't know why you don't get it. Nothing changes other than removing 'normal' and 'heroic' from a menu. You open up a menu, click a button, wait a bit and get in 100%
M0 becomes the base difficulty.

It's not hard to understand

[Gaidax]

I am not sure why people are so obssessed with removing stuff that does not concern them.

What, does existence of Normal/Heroic dungeons cause you some sort of mental anguish? They are simply leveling/start of expansion/cosmetics collection content. What pain does their existence cause?

[khazmodan]

Turning dungeons into progression was inevitable but there are tons of casuals that want nothing to do with raiding type progression. I for one am in my 50s and have no interest in grinding out mythic dungeons and renaming heroics just eliminates proper level definitions. The real solution is giving casual players a reason to do heroic dungeons and letting them make slower progression but this is where the problem lies. Mythic dungeons made heroic dungeons lower level gear drops simply because they have to be pathetically low to be in line with the rewards of mythics. Since there are no gear vendors for buying gear and upgrading gear is only for mythic gear then casuals have no real progression and...cya next expansion...maybe. Blizzard trying to force casuals to go into mythics just tells them it's time to leave because they are not welcome.

[TheRevenantHero]

Pretty straight forward. Blizzard has destroyed any reason to really do normal/heroic runs even while leveling the amount of exp is a joke to be earned.
So is it time to say goodbye to difficulties that are ignored by like 99% of the playerbase?

Or remove M+ and make Normal same as M0 while heroic can be M+ while removing mythic all togheter.

LOL WHAT?! More people do normal and heroic dungeons. Saying that 99% of the playerbase doesn't bother with normal/heroic dungeons is objectively wrong.

[Gaidax]

LOL WHAT?! More people do normal and heroic dungeons. Saying that 99% of the playerbase doesn't bother with normal/heroic dungeons is objectively wrong.

People just live in their micro-bubble and project it on everything. "I don't do LFR/dungeons/pet battles/dancing on mailbox in Goldhsire, so it can be removed as it's useless". Same thing here.

[Nymrohd]

I am not sure why people are so obssessed with removing stuff that does not concern them.

What, does existence of Normal/Heroic dungeons cause you some sort of mental anguish? They are simply leveling/start of expansion/cosmetics collection content. What pain does their existence cause?

The thing is, mode inflation came with gear inflation. Once upon a time Heroic dungeons were a single tier behind normal raids in ilvl. Then LFR happened and base Mythic dungeons happened and valor was removed. Heroic dungeons now are just a solid excuse to keep matchmaking dungeons far, far away from decent ilvl loot. I don't really know if people do run them outside the odd quest or emissary that requires you to complete a dungeon. But they don't really have worthwhile rewards of their own.

[Xaviaton]

I have still yet to really see a good argument for keeping Heroic dungeons in this thread TBH, and it seems most people here are very ambivalent to their existence. Where people say that they "fulfill a function", are they not just solving a problem that only exist so that HC dungeons can justify themselves (IE: The iLvL difference between Normal and M0/LFR)?

The main argument I see is that they are a very early gearing source - the final pieces of gear you get before M0 and LFR - but is there a reason Normal cannot fulfill this function? Before level scaling it made sense so we did not have to get all our gear from 4 max level normals but is there any reason why iLvLs cannot be "normalized" around a "Max level Normal -> LFR/M0" progression? Surely this just means there is a lower difference in gear between normal dungeons and LFR/M0, and do anyone actually lose out from this? It helps out, if only a little bit, with iLvL inflation and it reduces the (somewhat perceived) barrier of entry between normal dungeons/leveling content and endgame. WoW has a general problem with needing you to understand and do too many different things as part of playing it, Heroic dungeons seem to me to be dead weight at the moment.

I generally agree with the "don't remove content just because some people don't care about it" argument but in this particular case it seems to me a benefit (if only a minor) to actually remove the content since the issue of "more difficult dungeons" is generally solved by M+ anyways.

[TheRevenantHero]

People just live in their micro-bubble and project it on everything. "I don't do LFR/dungeons/pet battles/dancing on mailbox in Goldhsire, so it can be removed as it's useless". Same thing here.

Oh for sure. But saying that 99% of the game's population skips normal/heroic dungeons and go straight to mythic dungeons is one of the most asinine things I've ever read on this site.