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  1. #161
    I have still yet to really see a good argument for keeping Heroic dungeons in this thread TBH, and it seems most people here are very ambivalent to their existence. Where people say that they "fulfill a function", are they not just solving a problem that only exist so that HC dungeons can justify themselves (IE: The iLvL difference between Normal and M0/LFR)?

    The main argument I see is that they are a very early gearing source - the final pieces of gear you get before M0 and LFR - but is there a reason Normal cannot fulfill this function? Before level scaling it made sense so we did not have to get all our gear from 4 max level normals but is there any reason why iLvLs cannot be "normalized" around a "Max level Normal -> LFR/M0" progression? Surely this just means there is a lower difference in gear between normal dungeons and LFR/M0, and do anyone actually lose out from this? It helps out, if only a little bit, with iLvL inflation and it reduces the (somewhat perceived) barrier of entry between normal dungeons/leveling content and endgame. WoW has a general problem with needing you to understand and do too many different things as part of playing it, Heroic dungeons seem to me to be dead weight at the moment.

    I generally agree with the "don't remove content just because some people don't care about it" argument but in this particular case it seems to me a benefit (if only a minor) to actually remove the content since the issue of "more difficult dungeons" is generally solved by M+ anyways.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    People just live in their micro-bubble and project it on everything. "I don't do LFR/dungeons/pet battles/dancing on mailbox in Goldhsire, so it can be removed as it's useless". Same thing here.
    Oh for sure. But saying that 99% of the game's population skips normal/heroic dungeons and go straight to mythic dungeons is one of the most asinine things I've ever read on this site.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is, mode inflation came with gear inflation. Once upon a time Heroic dungeons were a single tier behind normal raids in ilvl. Then LFR happened and base Mythic dungeons happened and valor was removed. Heroic dungeons now are just a solid excuse to keep matchmaking dungeons far, far away from decent ilvl loot. I don't really know if people do run them outside the odd quest or emissary that requires you to complete a dungeon. But they don't really have worthwhile rewards of their own.
    But... who cares?

    Heroic dungeons fill their niche of queued dungeon runs for basic gear for initial patch experience and some starter currency when relevant.

    Dungeons lost their relevance pretty much from the get go - even in Vanilla, by the time AQ was out, the gear from there bar few unique pieces was completely useless. TBC, people spammed Mechanar purely for currency - it did not give shit otherwise that was relevant aside from initial patch.

    I think your expectations are strange, Heroic Dungeons were never relevant for long, except for if launched same patch (but then Mechagon was the same too with essence at least), it's just in past they were all there is as far as dungeons went.
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  4. #164
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    But... who cares?

    Heroic dungeons fill their niche of queued dungeon runs for basic gear for initial patch experience and some starter currency when relevant.

    Dungeons lost their relevance pretty much from the get go - even in Vanilla, by the time AQ was out, the gear from there bar few unique pieces was completely useless. TBC, people spammed Mechanar purely for currency - it did not give shit otherwise that was relevant aside from initial patch.

    I think your expectations are strange, Heroic Dungeons were never relevant for long, except for if launched same patch (but then Mechagon was the same too with essence at least), it's just in past they were all there is as far as dungeons went.
    I think the interest is more in making Base Mythic, which is somewhat valuable in ilvl or otherwise, available for matchmaking. There are a lot of people who for a wide variety of reasons limit themselves to doing instanced content only through match making and finding a way to make dungeons somewhat rewarding or at least part of the gameplay loop has some value.

  5. #165
    heroic and normal dungeons should be merged together by making LFG dungeon drop higher itemlevel gear based on your character max ilvl once you've reached max level 70 (max), just like world quests operated in legion and bfa.

    That way you only have a single queue option and more people available both at the start of the ewpac and during it.
    Last edited by Skildar; 2022-09-13 at 11:49 AM.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaviaton View Post
    I have still yet to really see a good argument for keeping Heroic dungeons in this thread TBH, and it seems most people here are very ambivalent to their existence.
    It's a guaranteed seat in a group. It's a way to get into something higher than normal difficulty dungeons without having to deal with finding or starting a group. That's actually a lot for some.
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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaviaton View Post
    I have still yet to really see a good argument for keeping Heroic dungeons in this thread TBH, and it seems most people here are very ambivalent to their existence. Where people say that they "fulfill a function", are they not just solving a problem that only exist so that HC dungeons can justify themselves (IE: The iLvL difference between Normal and M0/LFR)?

    The main argument I see is that they are a very early gearing source - the final pieces of gear you get before M0 and LFR - but is there a reason Normal cannot fulfill this function? Before level scaling it made sense so we did not have to get all our gear from 4 max level normals but is there any reason why iLvLs cannot be "normalized" around a "Max level Normal -> LFR/M0" progression? Surely this just means there is a lower difference in gear between normal dungeons and LFR/M0, and do anyone actually lose out from this? It helps out, if only a little bit, with iLvL inflation and it reduces the (somewhat perceived) barrier of entry between normal dungeons/leveling content and endgame. WoW has a general problem with needing you to understand and do too many different things as part of playing it, Heroic dungeons seem to me to be dead weight at the moment.

    I generally agree with the "don't remove content just because some people don't care about it" argument but in this particular case it seems to me a benefit (if only a minor) to actually remove the content since the issue of "more difficult dungeons" is generally solved by M+ anyways.
    Here is the ONLY argument needed to keep them - People play them and enjoy them. Period, end of story, that's the only justification needed for content.

  8. #168
    As someone who doesn't do things like Mythic+, Raiding past LFR level, or Rated PVP, this is a horrible idea. Heroic Dungeon spam is what I do to pass time. Normal dungeons are also nice as they can be used to finish up plot lines in zones. Normal is for story, Heroic is for those of us who do not want to/ don't have time to do mythics. By removing those, you're inadvertently removing something that a chunk of the player base does for fun.

  9. #169
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaviaton View Post
    I have still yet to really see a good argument for keeping Heroic dungeons in this thread TBH
    Well. The same thing could be said for the removal of Heroic. To be honest. It is the same for M0. One difference is, that Heroic is already implemented in the queue system.
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  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by UnholyGTX View Post
    As someone who doesn't do things like Mythic+, Raiding past LFR level, or Rated PVP, this is a horrible idea. Heroic Dungeon spam is what I do to pass time. Normal dungeons are also nice as they can be used to finish up plot lines in zones. Normal is for story, Heroic is for those of us who do not want to/ don't have time to do mythics. By removing those, you're inadvertently removing something that a chunk of the player base does for fun.
    Genuine question, do those queues still fill up? I haven't done a heroic in forever but the last time I remembered it was basically just the tank pulling the entire dungeon and everyone wondering why they were in there lol

  11. #171
    Heroic is pretty useless. Should just be M0 which you can then queue on LFD and from there you move to M+.

    I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I would also go for LFD M+, where you get automatically matched with people based on your rating automatically and then the M+ level will also match the rating.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UnholyGTX View Post
    As someone who doesn't do things like Mythic+, Raiding past LFR level, or Rated PVP, this is a horrible idea. Heroic Dungeon spam is what I do to pass time. Normal dungeons are also nice as they can be used to finish up plot lines in zones. Normal is for story, Heroic is for those of us who do not want to/ don't have time to do mythics. By removing those, you're inadvertently removing something that a chunk of the player base does for fun.
    The problem with heroic dungeons is that there is no reward structure for them. Only now in S4 have they actually managed to make heroic dungeon loot actually decent and otherwise this is only the case in the first week or two when a new expansion launches. Besides that however, heroic dungeons are from a loot perspective ALWAYS a waste of time, because you could easily buy BETTER crafted gear for very little gold on the AH or get better pieces very quickly and easily in the open world too.

    It feels useless how you have Heroic dungeons on LFD and then M0 where you need a manual group. They might as well combine the two into one difficulty (and make it available on LFD)

  12. #172
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Genuine question, do those queues still fill up? I haven't done a heroic in forever but the last time I remembered it was basically just the tank pulling the entire dungeon and everyone wondering why they were in there lol
    Heroic queues fill up quite fast for Tanks and Healers, even DPS can experience low waiting times at the start of an expansion, and a little longer at the end, of course (the longest I've waited for a Heroic as a DPS was something like, 20 minutes, which was mid-expansion, shortest, 8'ish minutes). There is a lot of queueing for Heroic all day around, unlike Mythic+ which is more or less dead in the early hours.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    The problem with heroic dungeons is that there is no reward structure for them.
    Eh.. What? There is the loot it is meant to offer, the same loot that you can in connection with crafted gear and world boss, start normal raiding with?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Heroic is pretty useless. Should just be M0 which you can then queue on LFD and from there you move to M+.
    M0 is even more useless as it isn't even in a queue system. The two of them are almost at the same level Yes, M0 is a joke and has less use than Pet Battles.
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    Eh.. What? There is the loot it is meant to offer, the same loot that you can in connection with crafted gear and world boss, start normal raiding with?
    All the way from week 4 of SL until S4 launch, doing heroic dungeons was actively a waste of time from a gearing perspective. The only people that would do them were those that didn't know better.

    You could at any given time buy superior gear (in terms of stats and itemlevel) for a small amount of gold from the AH and/or get it from open world content. You could completely outgear heroic dungeons several minutes after you reach 60. If you would gear through heroics instead, then you have to be a bit lucky to get any piece at all per dungeon.
    That's the way how it has consistently been since Legion and in Dragonflight it will be the same.

  14. #174
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Heroic is pretty useless. Should just be M0 which you can then queue on LFD and from there you move to M+.

    I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I would also go for LFD M+, where you get automatically matched with people based on your rating automatically and then the M+ level will also match the rating.
    Honestly given the community already has accepted a rating system for M+, I don't see the harm in LFD M+. It's not like we will lose any socialization by not having to browse through pages while reporting all the ads.

  15. #175
    My suggestion: M0 --> Normal, M+10 --> Heroic, M+15 --> Mythic and then M+ after that.

  16. #176
    Eh, I don't do M+ because I don't have time to. I like Heroic being that little bit more challenging than simply scaling Normal. That being said, they could probably do away with normal and scale Heroic for levelling (making it a new Normal), making it equivalent to Heroic at max level. Yep, I only do them for quests and dailies/weeklies, and since that's all I've got time for, there's no way I'd want to do away with the current LFD system for them. Mythic-only dungeons is a stupid waste of content.
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  17. #177
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    All the way from week 4 of SL until S4 launch, doing heroic dungeons was actively a waste of time from a gearing perspective. The only people that would do them were those that didn't know better.

    You could at any given time buy superior gear (in terms of stats and itemlevel) for a small amount of gold from the AH and/or get it from open world content. You could completely outgear heroic dungeons several minutes after you reach 60. If you would gear through heroics instead, then you have to be a bit lucky to get any piece at all per dungeon.
    That's the way how it has consistently been since Legion and in Dragonflight it will be the same.
    You didn't outgear Heroic at in the first half of the expansion minutes after hitting 60. You did at the second half/end because of catch-up gear.
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  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's a guaranteed seat in a group. It's a way to get into something higher than normal difficulty dungeons without having to deal with finding or starting a group. That's actually a lot for some.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Here is the ONLY argument needed to keep them - People play them and enjoy them. Period, end of story, that's the only justification needed for content.
    If the automatic matchmaking is the point, then perhaps the problem is rather that M0 should be removed and the M+2 key should drop directly from HC dungeons (or remove HC and make M0 matchmaking automatic). As I said in the full post, I still think HC dungeons as they exist now are a detriment to the game, which is why I think their current format should be removed. The content progression from HC to M0 and M+ is not particularly smooth since you need to navigate through alternative menus to find them. The same problem could be said for LFR, but I would argue it is less stark since there is only one LFR difficulty and three manual group difficulties. A level 2 difficulty should lead into level 3, but at the moment HC dungeons and M0 dungeons feel like somewhat separate systems. If you are a new player in particular, you have now been taught that the LFG tool is the way to find dungeon groups and when you are given a separate max level difficulty it is easy to assume that that is it.

    You could, of course, argue that it would then be better to make M0 matchmaking automatic and keep HC to provide more content. I think this would solve most of the current system problems but I still think early expansion iLvL bloat is a real problem. This is particularly frustrating midway through the X.0 cycle, before the first major patch since PUG players are first forced through normal LFD, then HC LFD before you reach a suitable iLvL to compete in M0/+ and PUG raid groups. At this time, the LFG tool is no longer full of fresh max-levels, and the catch-up gear from new zones does not exist, leaving you at the mercy of 15-20m queue times as DPS. I think splitting the current player base over 3 separate queue times will make all of them feel worse, which is why I think either removing HC or M0 would in fact improve the game. I think HC is the best option to remove since Blizzard has made a huge deal about "Mythic" as an e-sports event.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Honestly given the community already has accepted a rating system for M+, I don't see the harm in LFD M+. It's not like we will lose any socialization by not having to browse through pages while reporting all the ads.
    Yeah I hope that's something they consider. Many more people are now recently realizing, especially with Wrath Classic around, that LFD hasn't really killed social interaction (or that the lack of it makes things better or more fun).

    I don't see any harm in a LFD system for M+ either as people can still do it with their friends or manually assemble groups as was always possible anyways.

  20. #180
    Or remove M+
    This. 10 char.

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