How does Dragonflight look so far, Good, bad, same as usual?

[Biomega]

Again I would rather get no steak, then a fucking burnt one my dude...

You're missing the point. Yes, no steak is better than an inedible steak, BUT YOU STILL GOT SCREWED OUT OF A STEAK IN THAT DEAL.

Remember: the price doesn't change. You pay $40 for a good salad and a bad steak, then you pay $40 for a good salad and NO steak, and you're somehow... okay with that, just because you didn't get a bad steak.

They got you. They got you good. And you didn't even notice.

[Snufflupagus]

So we have world quests with invasions and grinds, as like in the expacs before? Yeah. Talked about that. No need to diversify them into the smallest parts. There is simply no instanced gameplay for any other gamers than high end.

I do LFR, normal, and mythic or mythic+ dungeons. I’m certainly not high end. I play on a MacBook Air with no mouse, for goodness sake. How much do you suck at WoW to consider those “high end” activities?

[FelPlague]

You're missing the point. Yes, no steak is better than an inedible steak, BUT YOU STILL GOT SCREWED OUT OF A STEAK IN THAT DEAL.

Remember: the price doesn't change. You pay $40 for a good salad and a bad steak, then you pay $40 for a good salad and NO steak, and you're somehow... okay with that, just because you didn't get a bad steak.

They got you. They got you good. And you didn't even notice.

and AGAIN you are not "getting nothing" there is fucking TONS of new stuff in dragonflight, how many times do we have to beat this into your skull?

[Biomega]

and AGAIN you are not "getting nothing" there is fucking TONS of new stuff in dragonflight, how many times do we have to beat this into your skull?

Yes, you still get a salad.

No one said you weren't getting a salad. Just that you aren't getting a steak.

[FelPlague]

Yes, you still get a salad.

No one said you weren't getting a salad. Just that you aren't getting a steak.

You fucking still are though...
holy fucking shit dude.

[Biomega]

You fucking still are though...
holy fucking shit dude.

I think you maybe just don't understand the metaphor?

[Snufflupagus]

Even assuming you ARE getting a good salad (and that's far from evident), you still got screwed out of a steak here. AND YOU'RE SOMEHOW DEFENDING THAT.

No one is screwing anyone out of anything here.

Your suggestion implies that a steak was offered, and by sleight of hand it’s subsequently been withdrawn.

Blizzard has been very upfront with what DF offers. No one paying for it need be under any illusion about what it contains. If it doesn’t contain what you want, you don’t have to buy it. You’re not being “screwed out of” anything, you’re just not necessarily being offered what you want. Well, sorry.

To extend your unhelpful metaphor, you’re going to a salad bar and whining that in doing so you’ve been screwed out of a steak.

In actual fact, DF is pretty similar to what earlier expansions always have offered. This “no content”, “no features” discourse is plainly silly. But that’s neither here nor there.

I hope you have much fun playing the game. I talk about players that do no premade group content. And those are the majority. Players that limit their gameplay to world content and matchmade group content.

1) I do not think that is true, and I do not think you can produce evidence to suggest it is true.

2) Playing in that manner is certainly allowed, but is not the principal value proposition or gameplay offering of WoW. WoW is an instanced-group-content game. If you are finding ways to have fun outside that, awesome. But demanding that it’s designed around generating fun for people playing non-central game modes is absurd.

[Biomega]

Your suggestion implies that a steak was offered, and by sleight of hand it’s subsequently been withdrawn.

Err, no?

I was very clear, I thought. This is a different visit to the restaurant. There is no sleight of hand at play. All that's changed is the value proposition. You don't want it, don't buy it. That's what I'm doing.

I'm just saying that if you ARE buying it, don't pretend that somehow getting less is a good deal just because you aren't getting something bad.

[Snufflupagus]

Err, no?

I was very clear, I thought. This is a different visit to the restaurant. There is no sleight of hand at play. All that's changed is the value proposition. You don't want it, don't buy it. That's what I'm doing.

I'm just saying that if you ARE buying it, don't pretend that somehow getting less is a good deal just because you aren't getting something bad.

Then your argument is a) internally incoherent and b) completely inapplicable to the already-strained metaphor you forwarded.

If this is “a different visit to the restaurant” and your suggestion is “if you don’t like don’t buy it” then people are “getting a good deal” handing over money for something they want at a restaurant where they have previously eaten steak. There’s no problem, you’re just a hobo ranting on the sidewalk outside.

[Biomega]

people are “getting a good deal” handing over money for something they want at a restaurant where they have previously eaten steak.

I'm not saying people aren't free to buy whatever they want. I'm saying that they have no justification claiming that them getting less instead of something bad is a good deal.

No one is saying you aren't allowed to pay for it if you want. But just because you're fine with paying for it doesn't make it a good deal.

[Snufflupagus]

I'm not saying people aren't free to buy whatever they want. I'm saying that they have no justification claiming that them getting less instead of something bad is a good deal.

No one is saying you aren't allowed to pay for it if you want. But just because you're fine with paying for it doesn't make it a good deal.

In fact it literally does.

“Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.”

You not being fine with paying for it doesn’t make it a bad deal for anyone else; value is relative.

Furthermore “less instead of something bad” is far from a settled issue, and having read your commentary throughout this thread you’ve failed to compellingly make or even advance that case.

So people are paying a to-them acceptable amount of money for something they value, which isn’t discernibly different from things they’ve paid for before, and you’re haranguing them on the sidewalk as they leave the restaurant because you have issues with the place’s new menu.

Give it a rest.

[Biomega]

In fact it literally does.

“Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.”

That's seriously misunderstanding what that means, AND what "good deal" means.

[Snufflupagus]

That's seriously misunderstanding what that means, AND what "good deal" means.

Nope. You’re just choosing to ignore the reality of differential valuations. You’re allowed, but you’re also wrong.

$50 for a set of jousting sticks might be cheap, but I don’t want jousting sticks. It is, therefore, not a good deal.

Give it a rest.

Touch some grass.

[Biomega]

Nope. You’re just choosing to ignore the reality of differential valuations. You’re allowed, but you’re also wrong.

$50 for a set of jousting sticks might be cheap, but I don’t want jousting sticks. It is, therefore, not a good deal.

I can only repeat: you misunderstand what "good deal" means.

"This brand-new Ferrari is $100? Hm. But I don't want a Ferrari. THIS IS THEREFORE NOT A GOOD DEAL."

Right.

Go away, trolly boi.

[Snufflupagus]

I can only repeat: you misunderstand what "good deal" means.

"This brand-new Ferrari is $100? Hm. But I don't want a Ferrari. THIS IS THEREFORE NOT A GOOD DEAL."

Right.

Go away, trolly boi.

This is high school level economics.

People value goods based on their utility.

Buying something with no utility to the individual person is never a good deal, because it has no utility.

Buying something with utility at a price proportionate to its utility is the definition of a good deal.

A brand new Ferrari for $100 is a complex example, because almost no matter who you are it will have utility worth more than $100 (i.e resale), so it’s always a good deal.

A brand new Ferrari on an island you can walk across with a covenant saying you can’t take it off the island would not be worth $100 unless you just love cars, because it has sharply limited utility.

A $40 expansion that some people will enjoy and others will not is a substantially less clear utility proposition, hence there is more scope for it to be a good or bad deal depending on the individual’s preferences.

People paying $40 for an expansion they will enjoy is, therefore, a good deal.

People paying $50 for jousting sticks they want is a good deal.

Screaming at people exchanging funds for proportionate utility is irrational.

Give it a rest.

[pahbi]

So true, the really creative people have left the company and all that is left are the sociopathic, cash grab, stagnant formula mediocres.

Maybe...

My feeling is there are plenty of creative people, its just that they are held hostage by corporate bean counters

[Unlimited Power]

I'm mostly worried that, once again, it seems there's not much you can do outside of the seemingly Holy Trinity of content, raids, m+ and PvP, to improve your character at max level.

There's professions where you can have X amount of pieces equipped, but even that will likely require collaboration with other players if you want the best items.

And then there's the primal zone invasions, but those seem to give gear about on par with normal raiding.

I miss the days of horrific visions where you could obtain gear on par with mythic raiding entirely through solo play, the one exception being weapons.

[FelPlague]

I'm mostly worried that, once again, it seems there's not much you can do outside of the seemingly Holy Trinity of content, raids, m+ and PvP, to improve your character at max level.

There's professions where you can have X amount of pieces equipped, but even that will likely require collaboration with other players if you want the best items.

And then there's the primal zone invasions, but those seem to give gear about on par with normal raiding.

I miss the days of horrific visions where you could obtain gear on par with mythic raiding entirely through solo play, the one exception being weapons.

What are you talking about?

[Depakote]

It looks bad in my point of view. They're overcomplicating professions for some insane reason to start.

[khazmodan]

Maybe...

My feeling is there are plenty of creative people, its just that they are held hostage by corporate bean counters

That is possible and if it is true then maybe Microsoft will get them back on track.