Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
... LastLast
  1. #181
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    40,735
    This thread is also not Alliance vs. Horde, which is better, etc. - but rather if the story would be better with neither faction.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread is also not Alliance vs. Horde, which is better, etc. - but rather if the story would be better with neither faction.
    I pretty much said before that the story would be better if there Horde didn't exist but I think also that it would be interesting if the story was done with races instead of factions. Each race had plenty of lore to use.

  3. #183
    Pretty much everyone agrees that "neutral" storylines tend to be much better than "faction war" storylines. And, if anything, faction war storylines sometimes limited the potential that other storylines could have had. For instance, BfA would have been much better if it was solely about the Old Gods and their renewed war against the world, instead of sharing the spotlight with the Alliance vs. Horde storyline. N'Zoth and Azshara were pretty much rushed as a result. They are iconic villains, but they had to share the spotlight with a senile orc crying for 2 years straight.

    If they don't want to remove factions, then they can just pull a Legion 2.0. The very premise of Legion is that the Alliance and Horde are too busy bickering amongst each other to deal with the Legion threat, so neutral orders have to be formed in response. In Legion, the PC pretty much cuts most ties with their faction to become the leader of a neutral organization. In some cases, the PC actually works AGAINST their original faction. For instance, the Alliance rogue PC has to infiltrate Stormwind to investigate clues of Legion corruption and the Horde DK PC has to infiltrate Undercity to free Koltira. Factions still existed gameplay wise, but storywise they were irrelevant outside of Stormheim.

    And, lo and behold, out of all modern expansions (WoD onward), Legion is clearly the most beloved and popular.

  4. #184
    I honestly don't see the factions going away anytime soon as Blizzard would need to patch up so many things in order for it to work - how would existing battlegrounds play out? What would war mode do? If the players are split into multiple factions then who opposes who when war mode is turned on?

    I would however like to see the factions reduced to flavour and minor bickering rather than becoming major plot points a la MoP and BfA. Take Wrath for example, sure we had some faction violence but both sides were primarily focused on dealing with the Scourge and certainly didn't hesitate to cooperate when the need was present. All out war arcs will never be well recieved as somebody's gotta lose and you'll piss off at least half the playerbase in the process. Possibly even more, seeing how many Alliance players are unhappy with BfA despite more or less winning the Fourth War.

  5. #185
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    4,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    I honestly don't see the factions going away anytime soon as Blizzard would need to patch up so many things in order for it to work - how would existing battlegrounds play out? What would war mode do? If the players are split into multiple factions then who opposes who when war mode is turned on?

    I would however like to see the factions reduced to flavour and minor bickering rather than becoming major plot points a la MoP and BfA. Take Wrath for example, sure we had some faction violence but both sides were primarily focused on dealing with the Scourge and certainly didn't hesitate to cooperate when the need was present. All out war arcs will never be well recieved as somebody's gotta lose and you'll piss off at least half the playerbase in the process. Possibly even more, seeing how many Alliance players are unhappy with BfA despite more or less winning the Fourth War.
    How do the battlegrounds play out now? Most of them are likely resolved conflicts at this point. Some of them never made much sense in the first place. If you mean how would they work as gameplay, same way they work now.

    As for WM just give us free for all with the ability to group up and not have friendly fire.

  6. #186
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    A state of madness
    Posts
    11,068
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Pretty much everyone agrees that "neutral" storylines tend to be much better than "faction war" storylines. And, if anything, faction war storylines sometimes limited the potential that other storylines could have had. For instance, BfA would have been much better if it was solely about the Old Gods and their renewed war against the world, instead of sharing the spotlight with the Alliance vs. Horde storyline. N'Zoth and Azshara were pretty much rushed as a result. They are iconic villains, but they had to share the spotlight with a senile orc crying for 2 years straight.

    If they don't want to remove factions, then they can just pull a Legion 2.0. The very premise of Legion is that the Alliance and Horde are too busy bickering amongst each other to deal with the Legion threat, so neutral orders have to be formed in response. In Legion, the PC pretty much cuts most ties with their faction to become the leader of a neutral organization. In some cases, the PC actually works AGAINST their original faction. For instance, the Alliance rogue PC has to infiltrate Stormwind to investigate clues of Legion corruption and the Horde DK PC has to infiltrate Undercity to free Koltira. Factions still existed gameplay wise, but storywise they were irrelevant outside of Stormheim.

    And, lo and behold, out of all modern expansions (WoD onward), Legion is clearly the most beloved and popular.
    Says who? The factions being distrustful of one another and the constant fighting is the very core of the Warcraft universe. After all of the events of WC2 and beyond I get why many on both factions agree the only peace is for the other to be destroyed. If anything the factions being at peace with one another is the glaring lore inconsistencies. Why would forsaken ever forgive humans? Why would night elves forgive Orcs?

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Pretty much everyone agrees that "neutral" storylines tend to be much better than "faction war" storylines.
    Can you please talk only for yourself....

  8. #188
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    4,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Says who? The factions being distrustful of one another and the constant fighting is the very core of the Warcraft universe. After all of the events of WC2 and beyond I get why many on both factions agree the only peace is for the other to be destroyed. If anything the factions being at peace with one another is the glaring lore inconsistencies. Why would forsaken ever forgive humans? Why would night elves forgive Orcs?
    The part you bolded though is not about whether faction storylines should exist. It's whether they are well received. Have they been well received?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Can you please talk only for yourself....
    So which faction war storyline did you enjoy?

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    So which faction war storyline did you enjoy?
    Personally I thought the Worgen vs Forsaken questline was one of the best ones ever added to the game.

    I guess its not technically Horde vs Alliance but it does involve the faction war. I think the War of Thorns could of been good if it was allowed to manifest as actual conflict and not some chess move in the Jailer's master plan.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by boots1991 View Post
    With the end of BFA, came the end of all out war between the factions.
    Thorough Shadowlands we cast out faction affiliation away for covenants, all the races fought a common yet terribly implemented foe.
    In Dragonflight we will set out as explorers and support the flights. The conflict has passed and data mined npc's show that the divide between factions is healing slowly.
    Simply put, I think this is blatantly wrong, and for several reasons.

    1. All it takes is Blizzard deciding one day to restart the conflict and there we go. Blizzard has proven themselves highly inconsistent with their narrative direction for the factions and their characters, and you should never, even for a minute, presume that it's beyond Blizzard's impulse to disregard previous developments in favor of something "big and explosive".

    2. Think about Germany post WWI: while the leadership on both sides signed an armistice and sought to end the war, resentment remained. How, as a people, do you begin to move past the atrocities committed in war? Or the terms upon which the war was ended. Ultimately, in Germany's case, we saw that resentment fester, and it was ultimately used to bring about the rise of the Nazis, and subsequently another world war. Similarly, with the Alliance and Horde, the Horde literally *just* attempted to pursue genocide against the Alliance. And it's not the first time either. It has been thirty plus years of active conflict between these two factions, and the Horde has never demonstrated their ability to refrain from barbaric atrocities due to the whims of their leadership.

    What reason would an Alliance peasant have for trusting that the Horde wouldn't strike again?

    What reason would a Horde peon have for believing that the Alliance will forgive decades of genocide and horrific mass murder?

    It simply doesn't make sense for the factions to move past the conflict just yet because there hasn't been any genuine narrative development that shows either faction is mature enough to move on. The only reason the fighting stopped this past time is because the writers shoehorned in "the Horde is nothing." Up till that point? The Horde was more than willing to keep on fighting, and the only reason the Alliance was willing to stop is because Anduin is a milk drinker who has no depth as a character.

  11. #191
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    4,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Personally I thought the Worgen vs Forsaken questline was one of the best ones ever added to the game.

    I guess its not technically Horde vs Alliance but it does involve the faction war. I think the War of Thorns could of been good if it was allowed to manifest as actual conflict and not some chess move in the Jailer's master plan.
    It started well but the fact that neither side actually gets to experience the full story is very problematic imo. Forsaken players should have an option to experience the invasion and Worgen players absolutely should have had their own story in Silverpine. Stonetalon was a good faction war story but we later learned it was never meant to be.

    But expansion-wide faction storylines are just turds and they cannot be anything but since they can never have a satisfying ending. Who was the War of Thorns satisfying for?

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Says who? The factions being distrustful of one another and the constant fighting is the very core of the Warcraft universe. After all of the events of WC2 and beyond I get why many on both factions agree the only peace is for the other to be destroyed. If anything the factions being at peace with one another is the glaring lore inconsistencies. Why would forsaken ever forgive humans? Why would night elves forgive Orcs?
    Factually proven wrong. It was never the core of the franchise. The core of the franchise, if we want to be precise instead of vague, was the Legion's grand plan to take over the world of Azeroth. WC1-WC2 is the Legion using the Orcs as puppets. WC3 is the Legion revealing itself as the true mastermind.

    Just because factions stop being relevant doesn't mean those grievances are forgiven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Personally I thought the Worgen vs Forsaken questline was one of the best ones ever added to the game.

    I guess its not technically Horde vs Alliance but it does involve the faction war. I think the War of Thorns could of been good if it was allowed to manifest as actual conflict and not some chess move in the Jailer's master plan.
    It's not faction conflict, it's racial conflict, the kind we had in WC3, when factions were largely irrelevant, when we had Night elves vs. Humans and Orcs or Humans vs. Undead.

    Many who advocate for stop to faction war also advocate for more racial spotlight in the form of racial conflicts. Stuff like Void elves/High elves vs. Blood elves and Gnomes vs. Goblin.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It started well but the fact that neither side actually gets to experience the full story is very problematic imo. Forsaken players should have an option to experience the invasion and Worgen players absolutely should have had their own story in Silverpine. Stonetalon was a good faction war story but we later learned it was never meant to be.

    But expansion-wide faction storylines are just turds and they cannot be anything but since they can never have a satisfying ending. Who was the War of Thorns satisfying for?
    I think it can be satisfying but there actually has to be clear winners and losers like there was when they advanced the story in Cataclysm. These are the plot points that people tend to debate for years as opposed some big bad who predictably always loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It's not faction conflict, it's racial conflict, the kind we had in WC3, when factions were largely irrelevant, when we had Night elves vs. Humans and Orcs or Humans vs. Undead.

    Many who advocate for stop to faction war also advocate for more racial spotlight in the form of racial conflicts. Stuff like Void elves/High elves vs. Blood elves and Gnomes vs. Goblin.
    WC3 was still pretty much about factions as opposed to races. Really with the only exception being the Blood Elf story.

    Regardless though. I am fine with focusing on racial conflict in the future. I am not sure the current writers could handle it just looking at how unsatisfactory the Night Elf and Forsaken storylines were in SLs.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    WC3 was still pretty much about factions as opposed to races. Really with the only exception being the Blood Elf story.
    I mean, two of the four playable armies were just one race. The Night elves (with some forest spirit allies) and the Undead. Which is also why Night elf players are rightfully pissed that their race got downgraded from an independent army to a member of the Alliance. The Night elves in WC3 had the manpower to fight the Legion, Alliance, and Horde, all by themselves.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Ennalorsilvertongue View Post
    Simply put, I think this is blatantly wrong, and for several reasons.

    1. All it takes is Blizzard deciding one day to restart the conflict and there we go. Blizzard has proven themselves highly inconsistent with their narrative direction for the factions and their characters, and you should never, even for a minute, presume that it's beyond Blizzard's impulse to disregard previous developments in favor of something "big and explosive".

    2. Think about Germany post WWI: while the leadership on both sides signed an armistice and sought to end the war, resentment remained. How, as a people, do you begin to move past the atrocities committed in war? Or the terms upon which the war was ended. Ultimately, in Germany's case, we saw that resentment fester, and it was ultimately used to bring about the rise of the Nazis, and subsequently another world war. Similarly, with the Alliance and Horde, the Horde literally *just* attempted to pursue genocide against the Alliance. And it's not the first time either. It has been thirty plus years of active conflict between these two factions, and the Horde has never demonstrated their ability to refrain from barbaric atrocities due to the whims of their leadership.

    What reason would an Alliance peasant have for trusting that the Horde wouldn't strike again?

    What reason would a Horde peon have for believing that the Alliance will forgive decades of genocide and horrific mass murder?

    It simply doesn't make sense for the factions to move past the conflict just yet because there hasn't been any genuine narrative development that shows either faction is mature enough to move on. The only reason the fighting stopped this past time is because the writers shoehorned in "the Horde is nothing." Up till that point? The Horde was more than willing to keep on fighting, and the only reason the Alliance was willing to stop is because Anduin is a milk drinker who has no depth as a character.
    Actually a critical factor that allowed Garrosh and Sylvanas to pursue reckless warmongering has been removed at the end of BfA - the mantle of Warchief. In both cases volatile individuals reigned over the Horde due to unfortunate circumstances. Thrall's preferred successor Dranosh Saurfang perished at the Wrathgate, leaving him little to work with when he was called to cover Neltharion's position. The result was a still very much hot-headed Garrosh elevated to warchief (a decision even Garrosh himself resisted against initially). Sylvanas' ascension was even worse as it was completely rigged by Mueh'zala and bald man.

    The faction plot for MoP and BfA follow an identical pattern - the reigning warchief initiates an all-out war with the Alliance. Other leaders of the Horde are skeptical but mostly play along as the authority of the position is absolute. Then the warchief literally vaults over the moral event horizon and the Horde is split, with racial leaders and the PC (though the PC has a choice in BfA) opposing and eventually removing the individual from the seat. In short, all the brainless warmongering was possible because in the Horde's political system, a warchief's will is pretty much unopposable outside a literal coup. Now that the position is vacant it's become much more difficult for an individual to hijack the Horde and use it to smash up Azeroth - one must actually persuade other leaders to his cause rather than simply proclaim this is the bottom line because warchief said so.

    One interesting fact here is that the Alliance's political system isn't that different - the High King is also a fairly unopposable position. However the writers for some reason always provided some sort of buffer whenever Stormwind's leadership swayed towards war (Jaina in Wrath, Anduin in MoP). Had the High King become as consumed by hatred as Jaina and Tyrande did in MoP and BfA we may have had an expansion where we must to stop Varin or Anduin from smashing the planet up. Somewhat ironic that the trigger happy warchief plot actually resulted in the Horde having a somewhat more democratic system.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I mean, two of the four playable armies were just one race. The Night elves (with some forest spirit allies) and the Undead. Which is also why Night elf players are rightfully pissed that their race got downgraded from an independent army to a member of the Alliance. The Night elves in WC3 had the manpower to fight the Legion, Alliance, and Horde, all by themselves.
    The Scourge are not a single race. Its an army made of dead humans, living humans (Cult of the Damned) and nerubians. Night Elves are the core of Sentinels but technically its still a faction compromised also of Cenarius's children, the ancients and miscellaneous wildlife who came to the Night Elves aid. Although technically none of those races really have a story of their own that's explored so I would have to agree that that Night Elf conflicts in WC3 are more of a racial driven storyline than a faction specific one.

  17. #197
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    A state of madness
    Posts
    11,068
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The part you bolded though is not about whether faction storylines should exist. It's whether they are well received. Have they been well received?

    - - - Updated - - -



    So which faction war storyline did you enjoy?
    Non-specifically, I like the factions being at war because it always added an extra layer of politics and complications to a fantasy setting, within the genre that usually depicts very clear good guys with humans and elves and bad guys like orcs and zombies. LotR for example, you don't cheer for the Orcs and see the war from their perspective. That was the draw that made Warcraft great to me. Diminishing that constant tension between two world superpowers takes away a layer of depth to an otherwise typical story of heroes in capes slaying dragons and demons.

    Specifically, I like the entirety of the Pandaria campaign, the Krasarang Wilds and Jade Forest conflicts especially. It shows the worst of what happens when both factions are so fixated on eachothers demise they don't care about consequences. It made it hard to cheer for either team and side with the Pandas.

    There is also the Andorhal quest line which was very highly received, the Divine Bell questline which was highly received, the ICC gunship battle which was highly received. Those are what WoW was about to me, even in the face of a greater threat, these two superpowers can't help themselves from seeking their honor and giving in to their prejudices.

    This is why I think removing factions and letting all races play content together would be terrible for lore, but probably a good thing for gameplay as sub numbers drop.
    Last edited by Al Gorefiend; 2022-09-19 at 02:38 AM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by boots1991 View Post
    With the end of BFA, came the end of all out war between the factions.
    Thorough Shadowlands we cast out faction affiliation away for covenants, all the races fought a common yet terribly implemented foe.
    In Dragonflight we will set out as explorers and support the flights. The conflict has passed and data mined npc's show that the divide between factions is healing slowly.

    While many want to see the Alliance positioned as the bad guy of an expansion for once. It would just be a rehash of the Horde civil war during Garrosh's era.
    In the end the faction divide seems only to serve PvP.

    I admit that having an Orc or Forsaken walk through Stormwind safely would be unlikely, as would a Human or Night elf walking through the Undercity.
    However the factions let Death Knights, Warlocks and all other kind of shady individuals wander around the capitals as long as they are considered "Heroes" (Our player characters).
    We even have situations like the Dwarfs. Ironforge has the Dark Iron walking thought the city once more.

    My solution - Allow player characters to join any faction. As champions (or whatever) the prestige should overrule old grievances.
    To make PvP situations work in the story line. Borrow from the idea of FFXIV Free Company's. Merc forces that fight over points of interest works better than trying to explain why the Horde and Alliance still fight in many of the battlegrounds.

    Preferably Dragonflight will continue to mend the divide between factions and allow for a new era.
    Another Faction conflict would just be more of the same.
    you just forgot to ask the 2 most prominent prerequisite questions in your title:

    1) Is it time to scrap the Danuser team and start creating some real stories?
    2) Is it time to again invest more effort and money into WoW, than the most cost effective one possible?

    AFTER Blizzard answered these 2 questions with yes, it even starts to make sense to ask your question.

  19. #199
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    4,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Specifically, I like the entirety of the Pandaria campaign, the Krasarang Wilds and Jade Forest conflicts especially. It shows the worst of what happens when both factions are so fixated on eachothers demise they don't care about consequences. It made it hard to cheer for either team and side with the Pandas.

    There is also the Andorhal quest line which was very highly received, the Divine Bell questline which was highly received, the ICC gunship battle which was highly received. Those are what WoW was about to me, even in the face of a greater threat, these two superpowers can't help themselves from seeking their honor and giving in to their prejudices.

    This is why I think removing factions and letting all races play content together would be terrible for lore, but probably a good thing for gameplay as sub numbers drop.
    See those are just parts of storylines. Parts can be decent. I'd agree Jade Forest is probably among the better ones (though the message Blizzard was trying for was lost to the majority of the players). If by Divine Bell you mean the entirety of the 5.1 questline I guess that would be the peak of faction war questlines and the best example of using a reputation faction to tell a story but again it is an ANTI-faction war questline. The actual story at its core ends with Garrosh trial, doesn't actually resolve anything, does not really change the status quo and is not really reflected in game.

    In general people love to hate on Taran Zhu but every single moment in MoP he was right, we just hated to listen.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In general people love to hate on Taran Zhu but every single moment in MoP he was right, we just hated to listen.
    Jade statue of Yu'lon getting destroyed really hit that one home early.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •