Is it time to scrap the Alliance and Horde?

[Al Gorefiend]

See those are just parts of storylines. Parts can be decent. I'd agree Jade Forest is probably among the better ones (though the message Blizzard was trying for was lost to the majority of the players). If by Divine Bell you mean the entirety of the 5.1 questline I guess that would be the peak of faction war questlines and the best example of using a reputation faction to tell a story but again it is an ANTI-faction war questline. The actual story at its core ends with Garrosh trial, doesn't actually resolve anything, does not really change the status quo and is not really reflected in game.

In general people love to hate on Taran Zhu but every single moment in MoP he was right, we just hated to listen.

I think by desolving the factions or having them be at peace we would remove those kinds of storylines.

Ultimately this is WoW, and maybe we have the next 2 expansions with the factions at uneasy peace but eventually Blizzard will want to create those storylines again, especially if there is ever a world revamp.

It's cool for the faction war to stay the subplot like it's always been (maybe took a more major plot in BfA), but I'd like the continued faction conflicts to stay happening in the background.

[kranur]

I think by desolving the factions or having them be at peace we would remove those kinds of storylines.

Ultimately this is WoW, and maybe we have the next 2 expansions with the factions at uneasy peace but eventually Blizzard will want to create those storylines again, especially if there is ever a world revamp.

It's cool for the faction war to stay the subplot like it's always been (maybe took a more major plot in BfA), but I'd like the continued faction conflicts to stay happening in the background.

This pretty much. The only reason is that Jimmy the gnome wants to hang out in Orgrimmar.

[Al Gorefiend]

This pretty much. The only reason is that Jimmy the gnome wants to hang out in Orgrimmar.

I think the best reason given is that our characters aren't typical soldiers at this point in the story and recognize there are heroes on both sides. But the story is told from OUR perspectives, not the ones declaring the wars. Genn and Garrosh and Varian never realized that or didn't care that there was a single lone Orc that helped saved the world.

[Mehrunes]

In general people love to hate on Taran Zhu but every single moment in MoP he was right, we just hated to listen.

Not really, no. He was blaming the outsiders for everything all the time, but the Mantid assault happened before our arrival. And it's that assault that showed the Shado Pan were a bunch of complacent twats that got caught with their pants a light year below their ankles the moment their comfy pattern of Mantid attacks was changed. The player factions screwed only two zones of Pandaria. Every other zone was caused by internal Pandaria issues and the Shado Pan were unable to deal with them without our help all the same.

[huth]

Personally I thought the Worgen vs Forsaken questline was one of the best ones ever added to the game.

I guess its not technically Horde vs Alliance but it does involve the faction war. I think the War of Thorns could of been good if it was allowed to manifest as actual conflict and not some chess move in the Jailer's master plan.

What Worgen vs. Forsaken questline? On Alliance, there is no such thing.

It's a completely onesided story, which is why it works.
As for the War of Thorns, it could never manifest as an actual, proper, conflict due to the limitations of having to satisfy both sides. That's the very problem we're talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the best reason given is that our characters aren't typical soldiers at this point in the story and recognize there are heroes on both sides. But the story is told from OUR perspectives, not the ones declaring the wars. Genn and Garrosh and Varian never realized that or didn't care that there was a single lone Orc that helped saved the world.

That's the problem, though. Why are we stuck fighting their wars when they might not even be relevant to our interests? I'm not a soldier of the Alliance/Horde. They have no authority over me.

[Aucald]

Not really, no. He was blaming the outsiders for everything all the time, but the Mantid assault happened before our arrival. And it's that assault that showed the Shado Pan were a bunch of complacent twats that got caught with their pants a light year below their ankles the moment their comfy pattern of Mantid attacks was changed. The player factions screwed only two zones of Pandaria. Every other zone was caused by internal Pandaria issues and the Shado Pan were unable to deal with them without our help all the same.

"The player factions screwed only two zones of Pandaria" - that would be 2/5's of the continent, by the by, which is a pretty monumental feat in such a short time of being there. The arrival of the Horde and Alliance, and their heightened emotions due to the current war, also freed the 7 Prime Sha from their internment beneath Pandaria, which was the cause of the "internal Pandaria issues" you refer to. The Sha of Fear possesses the Mantid empress and causes her to initiate the swarm early, the Sha of Hatred neutralizes the bulk of the Shado-Pan before they can even act, the Sha of Anger causes chaos at Kun-Lai Summit, and so on. Taran Zhu may be angry and hypocritical, but he's also not wrong when it comes to the Alliance and Horde messing up his land and being the genesis of the conflict that quickly embroils all of Pandaria. He's also not wrong about the Alliance and Horde being locked into a feckless conflict with no foreseeable end because they've forgotten why they're even fighting, something the two factions only realize post-BfA themselves.

[Khaza-R]

What Worgen vs. Forsaken questline? On Alliance, there is no such thing.

It's a completely onesided story, which is why it works.
As for the War of Thorns, it could never manifest as an actual, proper, conflict due to the limitations of having to satisfy both sides. That's the very problem we're talking about.

The worgen starting experience ends with Sylvanas invading the city. So of course Alliance get a portion of the story. They just don't get to witness the aftermath. Which is a missed opportunity for sure but at the same time nothing new. You've pretty much always had to play both factions if you want the full story of this game.

[loras]

With the end of BFA, came the end of all out war between the factions.
Thorough Shadowlands we cast out faction affiliation away for covenants, all the races fought a common yet terribly implemented foe.
In Dragonflight we will set out as explorers and support the flights. The conflict has passed and data mined npc's show that the divide between factions is healing slowly.

While many want to see the Alliance positioned as the bad guy of an expansion for once. It would just be a rehash of the Horde civil war during Garrosh's era.
In the end the faction divide seems only to serve PvP.

I admit that having an Orc or Forsaken walk through Stormwind safely would be unlikely, as would a Human or Night elf walking through the Undercity.
However the factions let Death Knights, Warlocks and all other kind of shady individuals wander around the capitals as long as they are considered "Heroes" (Our player characters).
We even have situations like the Dwarfs. Ironforge has the Dark Iron walking thought the city once more.

My solution - Allow player characters to join any faction. As champions (or whatever) the prestige should overrule old grievances.
To make PvP situations work in the story line. Borrow from the idea of FFXIV Free Company's. Merc forces that fight over points of interest works better than trying to explain why the Horde and Alliance still fight in many of the battlegrounds.

Preferably Dragonflight will continue to mend the divide between factions and allow for a new era.
Another Faction conflict would just be more of the same.

I would personally prefer it if they kept the identities of the factions separate from the races, and give all races a "neutral" option.
Some are allowed in both factions, some only in one.
Undead, orcs and trolls in the alliance seems a bridge too far, in example, while draenei, worgen and night elves would certainly stay far from the Horde.

But removing the alliance and horde entirely seems to be a pretty stupid idea, akin to removing other parts of the game one happens to dislike.

[Feanoro]

they've forgotten why they're even fighting

That was one of the most discordant notes in the entire nonsense of MoP. Both sides were fully aware of past and present events and how those motivated each side to fight.

The Horde, as always, wanted conquest, blood spilling, and pillaging rather than doing an honest day's work for their food.

The Alliance wanted to defend themselves, prevent the next Theramore, and not be exterminated by the Horde.

[Darth-Piekus]

That was one of the most discordant notes in the entire nonsense of MoP. Both sides were fully aware of past and present events and how those motivated each side to fight.

The Horde, as always, wanted conquest, blood spilling, and pillaging rather than doing an honest day's work for their food.

The Alliance wanted to defend themselves, prevent the next Theramore, and not be exterminated by the Horde.

Personally I was against the lessons of Pandaria as to how they are lectured. Taran Zhu and his people were behind mists for 10.000 years. They know nothing about what happened making a big foul to equalize killers and victims or better yet those who tried to weaken Azeroth for the Legion and it's defenders. Considering the same those worked for the Jailer after Pandaria it seems that they haven't learned those Lessons.

[Aucald]

Personally I was against the lessons of Pandaria as to how they are lectured. Taran Zhu and his people were behind mists for 10.000 years. They know nothing about what happened making a big foul to equalize killers and victims or better yet those who tried to weaken Azeroth for the Legion and it's defenders. Considering the same those worked for the Jailer after Pandaria it seems that they haven't learned those Lessons.

10,000 years also gives them considerable distance from the Alliance and Horde's seemingly endless cycle of aggression and reprisal, showing that when viewed from the outside the faction conflict is mostly nonsensical to anyone not already embroiled in it. This is especially true when you account for the external forces pressing down on Azeroth - the Scourge, the Legion, the Jailer, the Void, and so on. That the Alliance and Horde continue to squabble over old grievances and allow fear and hatred to continue to spur them to conflict in light of everything arrayed against them goes to show that their priorities are deeply messed up, and it took near mutual annihilation for them to finally start recognizing it.

[Zantos]

I think it is. They serve no purpose in lore. Heck, there have been plenty of times were champions of other races were still within the capitals of the other faction because they had cast aside any allegiance to their original faction. Void elfs / Blood elfs are the best example. Some of the blood elfs stayed in the alliance, while most went with the horde. So the alliance did allow a few individuals that were part of an enemy race there. Then void elfs came crawling into the mix. Fighting in the alliance army. Some may have even been participants in fighting against the alliance before at some point.

We see that they can make a distinction between friend and foe. Heck, battle grounds aren't even an issue. Mercenary mode allows one side to fight on the other to help the queue. It changes their race to the other faction. Pandaren just don't even change.

In short, there are no limitations that make the divide still needed.

[Mehrunes]

"The player factions screwed only two zones of Pandaria" - that would be 2/5's of the continent, by the by, which is a pretty monumental feat in such a short time of being there. The arrival of the Horde and Alliance, and their heightened emotions due to the current war, also freed the 7 Prime Sha from their internment beneath Pandaria, which was the cause of the "internal Pandaria issues" you refer to. The Sha of Fear possesses the Mantid empress and causes her to initiate the swarm early, the Sha of Hatred neutralizes the bulk of the Shado-Pan before they can even act, the Sha of Anger causes chaos at Kun-Lai Summit, and so on. Taran Zhu may be angry and hypocritical, but he's also not wrong when it comes to the Alliance and Horde messing up his land and being the genesis of the conflict that quickly embroils all of Pandaria. He's also not wrong about the Alliance and Horde being locked into a feckless conflict with no foreseeable end because they've forgotten why they're even fighting, something the two factions only realize post-BfA themselves.

That'd be 2/5's of the continent if the zones were equal in size or if we screwed them up in their entirety, but neither of these is the case. Especially since Pandaria has 7 zones even if you don't count the islands or the Veiled Stair. And, like I said, the Mantid attacked weeks before we arrived. And they did because the Sha of Fear possessed their Empress and forced them to attack. So unless the Sha of Fear managed to do that from its prison (in which case the Shado Pan would still be the ones to blame) or has some convoluted time travel powers, we're not the ones who freed it. And, consequently, not the ones responsible for arguably the largest issue. And, consequenly-ier, not for the Yaungol invasion of Kun-lai either. Ditto for all the Mogu attacks, which was the biggest issue plaguing Vale of Eternal Blossoms and some subzones of other zones as well, because they had little to do with the Sha. Ditto v2 for the Zandalari and the resurrected Lei Shen.

Also, BfA opened with Sylvanas selling the war to the Horde with the argument that peace with the Alliance is impossible, because sooner or later they will attack again (while pretending they're the paragons of all that's holy and simultaneously patting the peace-breakers in their ranks on the back instead of punishing them). And while Sylvanas did not mean it herself because she was working for Satan, the Horde believed her for a reason. And the stark majority followed her even when Anduin's polyps formerly known as former Horde racial leaders turned against their former faction, also for a reason. And since Blizzard is incapable of not eating its own tail and they will bring back faction conflict again (to force their dogshit "deep" message about singing kumbaya together no matter how the other party has wrong you down players' throats again) at some point, which will start for the exact same reasons.

10,000 years also gives them considerable distance from the Alliance and Horde's seemingly endless cycle of aggression and reprisal, showing that when viewed from the outside the faction conflict is mostly nonsensical to anyone not already embroiled in it.

And yet they kept sending us to slaughter a whole plethora of Pandaria's own races that even remotely offended them, even if they were just hungry Virmen stealing food from a zone overflowing with it. The Pandaren were a bunch of hypocrites whose constant lectures ring hollow. Admittedly it's caused by Blizzard being incapable of reconciling supposed pacifists with their quest design.

[Aucald]

That'd be 2/5's of the continent if the zones were equal in size or if we screwed them up in their entirety, but neither of these is the case. Especially since Pandaria has 7 zones even if you don't count the islands or the Veiled Stair. And, like I said, the Mantid attacked weeks before we arrived. And they did because the Sha of Fear possessed their Empress and forced them to attack. So unless the Sha of Fear managed to do that from its prison (in which case the Shado Pan would still be the ones to blame) or has some convoluted time travel powers, we're not the ones who freed it. And, consequently, not the ones responsible for arguably the largest issue. And, consequenly-ier, not for the Yaungol invasion of Kun-lai either. Ditto for all the Mogu attacks, which was the biggest issue plaguing Vale of Eternal Blossoms and some subzones of other zones as well, because they had little to do with the Sha. Ditto v2 for the Zandalari and the resurrected Lei Shen.

According to the most recent lore I could find, the Prime Sha were awakened from dormancy when the arrival of the Horde and Alliance to Pandaria - meaning that the early swarming of Mantid due to Shek'zeer's possession is down to the faction conflict and its effect on the Sha, and doesn't predate their arrival. As for the zones, they're pretty wrecked all in all - maybe not 100%, but the effect of the Sha corruption caused directly by the Horde and Alliance conflict is noteworthy and far-flung, especially in Pandaria's capitol and heart in the Valley of Eternal Blossoms. The Yaungol incursions into Kun-Lai were also prompted by the stirring (and corruption) of the Mantid, which is something else you can lay at the feet of the faction conflict. Only the Mogu and the Zandalari are essentially unrelated, having had their own prior entanglements, but their conflict is rather low-key and secondary to the greater threat of the Sha in general. The Mogu didn't wreak the Vale, but the Sha, most directly the Sha of Pride, and the greater Heart of Y'Shaarj, most certainly did.

Also, BfA opened with Sylvanas selling the war to the Horde with the argument that peace with the Alliance is impossible, because sooner or later they will attack again (while pretending they're the paragons of all that's holy and simultaneously patting the peace-breakers in their ranks on the back instead of punishing them). And while Sylvanas did not mean it herself because she was working for Satan, the Horde believed her for a reason. And the stark majority followed her even when Anduin's polyps formerly known as former Horde racial leaders turned against their former faction, also for a reason. And since Blizzard is incapable of not eating its own tail and they will bring back faction conflict again (to force their dogshit "deep" message about singing kumbaya together no matter how the other party has wrong you down players' throats again) at some point, which will start for the exact same reasons.

Sylvanas was able to sell the Horde on her bullshit precisely because of the history and festering grievances that were always at the root of the faction conflict, that's not really an argument against what Taran Zhu was saying. It's piss-easy to get the Alliance and Horde fighting, all it takes is a single act of violence from either faction to ignite an overeager reprisal which spirals into total war. There's no faction leader among the two primary factions who hasn't had their turn juggling both the villain and idiot balls simultaneously.

[Shadowferal]

[Darth-Piekus]

10,000 years also gives them considerable distance from the Alliance and Horde's seemingly endless cycle of aggression and reprisal, showing that when viewed from the outside the faction conflict is mostly nonsensical to anyone not already embroiled in it. This is especially true when you account for the external forces pressing down on Azeroth - the Scourge, the Legion, the Jailer, the Void, and so on. That the Alliance and Horde continue to squabble over old grievances and allow fear and hatred to continue to spur them to conflict in light of everything arrayed against them goes to show that their priorities are deeply messed up, and it took near mutual annihilation for them to finally start recognizing it.

That is actually true. If you look at it from their prespective being completely distant for 10000 years not knowing the events of the 3 wars then to them it seems like a cycle. It's also true that there are greater threats that need both to unite. However Taran Zhu one patch later was ready with a military force to throw the Horde out of the Valley due to the excavations and when you find him later in the raid he was back full circle to his original It was the Foreigners fault view. In context Taran Zhu and the Pandaren like the Nightborne were completely isolated from all the First, Second and Third War events to have a full opinion.

[Aucald]

That is actually true. If you look at it from their prespective being completely distant for 10000 years not knowing the events of the 3 wars then to them it seems like a cycle. It's also true that there are greater threats that need both to unite. However Taran Zhu one patch later was ready with a military force to throw the Horde out of the Valley due to the excavations and when you find him later in the raid he was back full circle to his original It was the Foreigners fault view. In context Taran Zhu and the Pandaren like the Nightborne were completely isolated from all the First, Second and Third War events to have a full opinion.

Zhu is a xenophobe who never wanted the Alliance or the Horde on his shores to begin with, which given their actions is somewhat understandable, but he doesn't really change his tone or moderate his stance even when we actually fix all Pandaria's issues that even Shaohao only kicked down the timeline himself. I'm not going to say he's not both hostile and a hypocrite, but his initial stance on the two factions isn't wrong, nor is his observation at the Throne of Thunder about the cyclical (and feckless) nature of their mutual conflict.

He also gets possessed by the Sha of Hatred with good reason - he hates outsiders, and he allows that hatred to get the better of him and nearly destroys his own monastery despite his earlier admonitions to the Alliance and Horde commanders in the Jade Forest.

[Caiphon]

That was one of the most discordant notes in the entire nonsense of MoP. Both sides were fully aware of past and present events and how those motivated each side to fight.

The Horde, as always, wanted conquest, blood spilling, and pillaging rather than doing an honest day's work for their food.

The Alliance wanted to defend themselves, prevent the next Theramore, and not be exterminated by the Horde.

That's totally not why the factions started fighting in Pandaria - they found a previously unknown patch of land and didn't want the other side to call dibs on it first. Garrosh becoming consumed by sha energies came much later. Taran Zhu was more or less spot on at the time he made that comment.

Also worth noting the Alliance was in no danger of being exterminated - they had a much larger population and controlled fertile land that the Horde had very little access to. This was actually Garrosh's reasoning behind pushing into Ashenvale (there was a short story where Krenna was complaining to him about how life in Durotar sucks). Despite Garrosh being hyper aggressive the Horde was still very much the underdog during Cata~MoP. Note that the Horde was only able to go toe-to-toe with the Alliance when they had superpowers working in their favour (Heart of Y'shaarj, big bald man etc.).

[Feanoro]

That's totally not why the factions started fighting in Pandaria - they found a previously unknown patch of land and didn't want the other side to call dibs on it first. Garrosh becoming consumed by sha energies came much later. Taran Zhu was more or less spot on at the time he made that comment.

Nope, he was full of it, claiming they had no idea why they were fighting. Pure nonsense with a heavy dose of hypocritical sanctimoniousness. His comment would only make sense if everyone involved had amnesia. The Horde had just proven they were willing to blow entire cities off the map in their usual "a stubbed toe must be met with genocide" style. No one on either side could possibly have forgotten that.

Also worth noting the Alliance was in no danger of being exterminated

You'd never know it from what the game presented and continues to present.

fertile land that the Horde had very little access to.

Apparently Mulgore doesn't exist, neither does Feralas, or Stonetalon when the writers want to whip up the idiotic faction stalemate. As to Eastern Kingdoms, they could tell their undead allies to stop blighting the shit out of everything.

Despite Garrosh being hyper aggressive the Horde was still very much the underdog during Cata~MoP.

That explains them winning in every zone and confrontation, as well as the Alliance refusing to put the mad dogs down. Once again, we were TOLD one thing and SHOWN something entirely different. In no sane setting would even half of the Horde's aggression be tolerated if the Alliance was in such a vastly superior position. Since MMO means stalemate and the writers are openly Horde biased, we keep having to hear ridiculous excuses and doublethink worthy of Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

- - - Updated - - -

Personally I was against the lessons of Pandaria as to how they are lectured.

The big lesson was nothing less than abhorrent social Darwinism, shown first with the Mantid vs Pandas and then stated as their view of the faction war. "Strength comes from fighting and war removing the weak and unworthy."

[Caiphon]

Nope, he was full of it, claiming they had no idea why they were fighting. Pure nonsense with a heavy dose of hypocritical sanctimoniousness. His comment would only make sense if everyone involved had amnesia. The Horde had just proven they were willing to blow entire cities off the map in their usual "a stubbed toe must be met with genocide" style. No one on either side could possibly have forgotten that.

Pandaria belonged to neither the Horde nor the Alliance, both factions were fighting purely to stop the other from claiming it. Not the best of reasons to wage war, especially on a continent that already had fairly powerful inhabitants occupying it for at least 10,000 years. Both sides would have benefited far more if they approached Pandaria diplomatically, hence the remark that the factions don't even know what they're fighting for.

Also worth mentioning that the Alliance and Horde had taken out the Lich King some two to three years prior to MoP, neutralising the then-biggest threat to Azeroth in a cooperative effort. They also fought against the Legion together during the events of Reign of Chaos. It's not like the factions had never had peace or stood on the same side - in fact both factions benefited significantly (as in wasn't annihilated by demons or the Scourge) by working with each other.

Apparently Mulgore doesn't exist, neither does Feralas, or Stonetalon when the writers want to whip up the idiotic faction stalemate. As to Eastern Kingdoms, they could tell their undead allies to stop blighting the shit out of everything.

Mulgore is mostly portrayed as grasslands rather than fertile farmland, kinda like the Mongolian steppes I'd imagine. Feralas is a jungle. Jungles are notorious for producing very little food, not to mention the area is shared by both factions. Tirisfal and the Plaguelands were originally done in by the Scourge and whatever yields they produce are likely only edible to the Forsaken. The Horde's lack of access to fertile land has been canon since Cataclysm, and I don't think there have been developments to change that since.

That explains them winning in every zone and confrontation, as well as the Alliance refusing to put the mad dogs down. Once again, we were TOLD one thing and SHOWN something entirely different. In no sane setting would even half of the Horde's aggression be tolerated if the Alliance was in such a vastly superior position. Since MMO means stalemate and the writers are openly Horde biased, we keep having to hear ridiculous excuses and doublethink worthy of Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

Simply untrue. The Alliance gained ground in Southern Barrens in Cataclysm - it's why Taurajo was burned to the ground and the Tauren had to put up that big ass gate at the entrance to Mulgore. The Alliance won both warfronts in BfA and also destroyed the entire Zandalari fleet plus their king, the latter with quite minimal casualties on their side. They also defeated the Forsaken at Lordaeron, they just weren't able to take the land for themselves due to Sylvanas dumping blight all over it. Remeber also that the Alliance laid siege to the Horde's capital twice (albeit with the help of Horde renegades) while the Horde hasn't been able to even touch Stormwind since vanilla.

The Horde has scored like two victories over the Alliance since vanilla - Hillsbrad and Teldrassil. Garrosh tried to take over Ashenvale but wasn't able to, and Gilneas doesn't really count as the Alliance wasn't involved. All in all hardly a great track record.