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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Horde also won at Theramore, destroying the entire city. They're "victorious" in Stonetalon, albeit against a perceived Alliance force that wasn't actually hostile (e.g. Krom'gar's massacre at Thal'darah), but nonetheless repulsed any Alliance presence in the region. The Horde nominally also has another victory at Bael Modan, with a Horde proxy (the PC champion) helping him destroy the Dwarven fortress completely.
    Weird argument how "Horde dosent score victories" yet Alliance are made fucken fools, losers and pansies so many times in lore that it spread further than even WoW fandom and people who barely heard of the game (i mean gamers who dont play WoW) saw memes of Alliance being a sucker faction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Pandaria belonged to neither the Horde nor the Alliance, both factions were fighting purely to stop the other from claiming it. Not the best of reasons to wage war, especially on a continent that already had fairly powerful inhabitants occupying it for at least 10,000 years. Both sides would have benefited far more if they approached Pandaria diplomatically, hence the remark that the factions don't even know what they're fighting for.

    Also worth mentioning that the Alliance and Horde had taken out the Lich King some two to three years prior to MoP, neutralising the then-biggest threat to Azeroth in a cooperative effort. They also fought against the Legion together during the events of Reign of Chaos. It's not like the factions had never had peace or stood on the same side - in fact both factions benefited significantly (as in wasn't annihilated by demons or the Scourge) by working with each other.



    Mulgore is mostly portrayed as grasslands rather than fertile farmland, kinda like the Mongolian steppes I'd imagine. Feralas is a jungle. Jungles are notorious for producing very little food, not to mention the area is shared by both factions. Tirisfal and the Plaguelands were originally done in by the Scourge and whatever yields they produce are likely only edible to the Forsaken. The Horde's lack of access to fertile land has been canon since Cataclysm, and I don't think there have been developments to change that since.



    Simply untrue. The Alliance gained ground in Southern Barrens in Cataclysm - it's why Taurajo was burned to the ground and the Tauren had to put up that big ass gate at the entrance to Mulgore. The Alliance won both warfronts in BfA and also destroyed the entire Zandalari fleet plus their king, the latter with quite minimal casualties on their side. They also defeated the Forsaken at Lordaeron, they just weren't able to take the land for themselves due to Sylvanas dumping blight all over it. Remeber also that the Alliance laid siege to the Horde's capital twice (albeit with the help of Horde renegades) while the Horde hasn't been able to even touch Stormwind since vanilla.

    The Horde has scored like two victories over the Alliance since vanilla - Hillsbrad and Teldrassil. Garrosh tried to take over Ashenvale but wasn't able to, and Gilneas doesn't really count as the Alliance wasn't involved. All in all hardly a great track record.
    Also as Feanoror said - looking at the game and how it presents the story, Alliance looks so vastly outgunned, outplayed and outperformed by the Horde that faction feels on its last legs just about anywhere aside from Stormwind.

    Alliance story is literally story of a house on fire, and "victories" are not saving the house, but maybe saving an old clock from one room and extinguishing some flames in the attic while three floors burn down under you. Its shit. Its plainly UNFUN to play. Its also dosent make any sense in lore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Nope, he was full of it, claiming they had no idea why they were fighting. Pure nonsense with a heavy dose of hypocritical sanctimoniousness. His comment would only make sense if everyone involved had amnesia. The Horde had just proven they were willing to blow entire cities off the map in their usual "a stubbed toe must be met with genocide" style. No one on either side could possibly have forgotten that.

    You'd never know it from what the game presented and continues to present.

    Apparently Mulgore doesn't exist, neither does Feralas, or Stonetalon when the writers want to whip up the idiotic faction stalemate. As to Eastern Kingdoms, they could tell their undead allies to stop blighting the shit out of everything.

    That explains them winning in every zone and confrontation, as well as the Alliance refusing to put the mad dogs down. Once again, we were TOLD one thing and SHOWN something entirely different. In no sane setting would even half of the Horde's aggression be tolerated if the Alliance was in such a vastly superior position. Since MMO means stalemate and the writers are openly Horde biased, we keep having to hear ridiculous excuses and doublethink worthy of Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

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    The big lesson was nothing less than abhorrent social Darwinism, shown first with the Mantid vs Pandas and then stated as their view of the faction war. "Strength comes from fighting and war removing the weak and unworthy."
    Also yes, i missed it back then but "War makes us stronger cuz we kill the weak" is some shitty lesson, especially considering how Blizz apparently uses the game to "teach morality lessons" so they take this one seriously.

    "Lessons" like this are only good when you live in the first world country that only wages wars with drones and... ahem i dont want to write what but you DO get US passport if you enlist.

    And in general, social Darwinism is a joke.
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2022-09-24 at 03:21 PM.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    I don't get where you're getting this "end to all out war"?

    All it takes is the writers to write another war...so until they come out and say there will absolutely positively never ever in a million years be another war between the horde and alliance, a war is only a keystroke away. Especially when Turalyon, someone who has almost always known the horde as villains is in charge, anything is possible.
    I see this as a possibility. I personally think they should try something new, instead of it being full on faction vs faction, let the conflict stem from smaller factions within the main factions. Take for instance Yrel coming into the alliance. Turalyon would openly embrace her for sure. She could easily be a putress for the alliance. She brings lightforged orcs into the mix, maybe a lightforged mag'har leader joins the horde and mirrors has actions, and for the most part, they follow the rules but slowly build a following. There could be a small story arc where they start forcing furbolg, gnolls, other lesser races, into being lightforged. Turalyon doesn't see this to be a big deal, as it bolsters the strength of the alliance, just in case the horde tried to pull some BS later, and the horde following along because their council wants peace. Yrel could start recruiting more within the alliance to become lightforged or something another like that, and slowly build a faction within a faction, vice versa with the light forged mag'har on the horde side. Once an army is built, she could start going after the forsaken, causing tensions between the alliance and horde. Despite Calia being lightforged undead, she could still see her as an abomination or even want to make all of the forsaken as she is. The horde could resist this and defend the forsaken, and Turalyon could very well see it as the horde not cooperating for the greater good. This way, Turalyon isn't just driven mad by the light or an outside force, but makes a decision that aligns very much with his character. Or Yrel could very much try to do it with the orcs like she did for the Mag'har. Maybe she wants to finish what she started and convert them and the rest of the orcs, with the help of her horde counterpart. I could see Turalyon finding that just as well, because of the hordes past actions. Hell, some of the orcs within the horde could very well side with her and become lightforged, building up her army of the light further. Any which way, when the horde resists, and she tries to pull her draenor crap, a conflict could begin that isn't horde vs alliance, but a new antagonist that starts it with the horde. Later, the rest of the alliance could come to the conclusion this is BS and rise up against Yrel and her lightforged. But by this time, she has basically a faction of her own. She would have damaged both sides, as the alliance was more willing due to their ruling king. I think this would make a more interesting arc than say having Turalyon go full light mode, but instead just sorta helps her out at first and realizes the light has a very controlling nature. This would sort of cause a war, but not a full scale war. Something different than what we have seen in the past. I suppose on one hand you could point to garrosh and say he did the same thing, except he took most of the horde and the rest of the horde races banded together. It doesn't have to be like that, but more of a faction being constructed within a faction and that faction setting out to do their own thing against both factions.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Mulgore is mostly portrayed as grasslands rather than fertile farmland, kinda like the Mongolian steppes I'd imagine.
    Real world grasslands have been converted to some of the breadbaskets of the world. As portrayed, the only reasons that Mulgore isn't one giant farm are Blizzard's abysmal ignorance of agriculture and laziness in world building.

    Feralas is a jungle. Jungles are notorious for producing very little food, not to mention the area is shared by both factions.
    Jungles and swamps can be and have been reclaimed to become farmland.

    Tirisfal and the Plaguelands were originally done in by the Scourge and whatever yields they produce are likely only edible to the Forsaken.
    Tirisfal isn't shown as plagued, neither is Silverpine. Haunted by the undead, sure.

    The Horde's lack of access to fertile land has been canon since Cataclysm, and I don't think there have been developments to change that since.
    The Horde was given Azshara. Not them seizing it, it was GIVEN to them. They proceed to build goblin rocket raceways and keep whining they have no fertile land. The reality is that both they and Blizzard are unwilling to put in the work needed to make farmland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Real world grasslands have been converted to some of the breadbaskets of the world. As portrayed, the only reasons that Mulgore isn't one giant farm are Blizzard's abysmal ignorance of agriculture and laziness in world building.

    Jungles and swamps can be and have been reclaimed to become farmland.

    Tirisfal isn't shown as plagued, neither is Silverpine. Haunted by the undead, sure.

    The Horde was given Azshara. Not them seizing it, it was GIVEN to them. They proceed to build goblin rocket raceways and keep whining they have no fertile land. The reality is that both they and Blizzard are unwilling to put in the work needed to make farmland.
    Drastic repurposing of terrain often requires modern technology that most Azerothian civilisations would not have access to. And Tirisfal is still very much under the influence of the plague, just take a look at the quests involving any sort of agricultural produce. Silverpine a bit less so but it's overrun by rogue undead and worgen.

    At the end of the day it's Blizzard that makes the call on whether the setting is advanced enough for the Horde to repurpose what they have. Considering noone was able to argue against Garrosh's desire to expand on the basis of such endeavors (opposing individuals didn't go beyond 'war bad peace good') I think it's safe to say that such technology is currently unavailable. Yes it's strange that we have spaceship slinging space goats running around but can't raze jungles and swamps to create farmland, but I guess WoW still loosely adheres to a medieval-like fantasy setting.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Drastic repurposing of terrain often requires modern technology that most Azerothian civilisations would not have access to.
    The real world grasslands and jungles I've referred to have been made farmland with nothing more advanced than an ox and plow, hand tools, and human sweat. There is no naturally occurring tidy farmland; it has always been people converting land, and that's been done for millennia.

    Again, this is pure ignorance and laziness on Blizzard's part.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2022-09-24 at 05:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    The real world grasslands and jungles I've referred to have been made farmland with nothing more advanced than an ox and plow, hand tools, and human sweat. There is no naturally occurring tidy farmland; it has always been people converting land, and that's been done for millennia.

    Again, this is pure ignorance and laziness on Blizzard's part.
    Too true. In real world, without magic and "gobling/gnome tech" we had many cultures turn arid or swamp land into arable land. And even those lands that have fertile soil require work to turn truly fit for agriculture on any serious scale.

    In fact, we saw how a small group of druids can turn patch of Barrens into an Overgrowth, problem was that they went TOO FAR. So just a pinch of this can turn Barrens soil into fertile land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Drastic repurposing of terrain often requires modern technology that most Azerothian civilisations would not have access to. And Tirisfal is still very much under the influence of the plague, just take a look at the quests involving any sort of agricultural produce. Silverpine a bit less so but it's overrun by rogue undead and worgen.

    At the end of the day it's Blizzard that makes the call on whether the setting is advanced enough for the Horde to repurpose what they have. Considering noone was able to argue against Garrosh's desire to expand on the basis of such endeavors (opposing individuals didn't go beyond 'war bad peace good') I think it's safe to say that such technology is currently unavailable. Yes it's strange that we have spaceship slinging space goats running around but can't raze jungles and swamps to create farmland, but I guess WoW still loosely adheres to a medieval-like fantasy setting.
    War against supposedly equal superpower is never a viable way to obtain land and/or resources. You will waste more on waging war, lose people, lose time and etc. Only wars that ever gained anything were against a vastly weaker enemy.

    Also it may cause a long lasting conflict that will prevent your civic development and potentially cause a collapse of your own faction before you destroy an enemy.

    And WoW always makes an emphasis on how it is impossible for one faction to fell another, so any war between them is a WASTE from the get go. Nobody will gain in the end, and supposedly more impoverished Horde stands to lose far more by throwing resources into the unsustainable war efforts which will , as always, end in nothing.

  7. #227
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Weird argument how "Horde dosent score victories" yet Alliance are made fucken fools, losers and pansies so many times in lore that it spread further than even WoW fandom and people who barely heard of the game (i mean gamers who dont play WoW) saw memes of Alliance being a sucker faction.
    Um, it's not really an argument on my part - the previous poster said the Horde only scored two victories over the Alliance since Vanilla WoW, and I documented other occasions where the Horde could be said to have been victorious in battle. Beyond that, I don't really buy into the meme rationale as the "Alliance as pansies/suckers" that you and a few others seem to. I would say the Alliance tends to be reactive as opposed to proactive, but that's not really a blandishment on it. It also scans that the Alliance would be more democratic and discerning when it comes to conflict, given its nature as a collection of nation-states with alliances based on both historical and diplomatic connections as opposed to the Horde's more totalitarian-leaning partnerships of necessity and mutual protection.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Drastic repurposing of terrain often requires modern technology that most Azerothian civilisations would not have access to. And Tirisfal is still very much under the influence of the plague, just take a look at the quests involving any sort of agricultural produce. Silverpine a bit less so but it's overrun by rogue undead and worgen.
    Eh, classic Tirisfal was full of perfectly working farms of living humans that the Forsaken proceded to plague for their various experiments.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Pandaria belonged to neither the Horde nor the Alliance, both factions were fighting purely to stop the other from claiming it. Not the best of reasons to wage war, especially on a continent that already had fairly powerful inhabitants occupying it for at least 10,000 years. Both sides would have benefited far more if they approached Pandaria diplomatically, hence the remark that the factions don't even know what they're fighting for.
    The Horde and the Alliance were fighting a naval war (with the Horde scoring decisive victories) when the ship containing Anduin ran aground on Pandaria. The Alliance dispatched their forces to find the crown prince before the Horde did. The Horde dispatched their forces to "paint this new continent red." Both sides tried to approach the situation with the natives diplomatically, hence the arming of the jinyu and hozen in attempts to enlist their support for the respective factions. The factions didn't approach things diplomatically with one another because they were already in active conflict with one another.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Also worth mentioning that the Alliance and Horde had taken out the Lich King some two to three years prior to MoP, neutralising the then-biggest threat to Azeroth in a cooperative effort. They also fought against the Legion together during the events of Reign of Chaos. It's not like the factions had never had peace or stood on the same side - in fact both factions benefited significantly (as in wasn't annihilated by demons or the Scourge) by working with each other.
    They also worked together against Deathwing in Cata, with both committing airships to Wyrmrest Temple and the Alliance permitting the Horde troops to use theirs after Deathwing destroyed the Horde's ship. That hasn't meant a cessation of hostilities, with the two factions literally trying to kill one another while they assaulted Icecrown during your mentioned confrontation against the Lich King and then the events of Theramore and the naval conflicts after Deathwing. While they CAN work together, I don't know why you would expect them to do so when it came to a rescue/pursuit mission regarding the aftermath of one of their own naval conflicts. "Hey, I know you just destroyed the royal flagship. Do you mind helping us look for survivors on this new land before we return to beating each other up?" That would be akin to the Horde requesting that Deathwing give them a hand fixing the giant rift he caused through the Barrens before going back to destroying Azeroth just because they worked together back in WC2.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Eh, classic Tirisfal was full of perfectly working farms of living humans that the Forsaken proceded to plague for their various experiments.
    Tirisfal in the BfA cinematics also looked perfectly healthy, with lush trees and a sunny sky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    The real world grasslands and jungles I've referred to have been made farmland with nothing more advanced than an ox and plow, hand tools, and human sweat. There is no naturally occurring tidy farmland; it has always been people converting land, and that's been done for millennia.

    Again, this is pure ignorance and laziness on Blizzard's part.
    Yeah.

    It should be even easier to do in WoW since they have magic druidic bullshit. Just look at how they restored the Western Plaguelands from Chernobyl to a semi-decent farming area (iirc there are even Alliance farmers there, before morally grey Sylvanas and Forsaken move in, butcher everyone mercilessly, and add their corpses into their army of the dead).

    I mean, one tauren dude in the Barrens was already regrowing the nature there.

    The Horde has hundreds if not thousands of druids in their ranks, it should have been pretty easy for them to heal and nurture the soil and turn it fertile.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The Horde has hundreds if not thousands of druids in their ranks, it should have been pretty easy for them to heal and nurture the soil and turn it fertile.
    To be fair, in an effort to 'nurture' the Barrens Naralex managed to cover a considerable area with aggressive plant-tentacles. The druidic shenanigans do come with risks. This is just speculation but it may be easier/safer to cleanse corruption with druidic magic (Western Plaguelands) than to make dusty land fertile (Barrens/Desolace).

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    To be fair, in an effort to 'nurture' the Barrens Naralex managed to cover a considerable area with aggressive plant-tentacles. The druidic shenanigans do come with risks. This is just speculation but it may be easier/safer to cleanse corruption with druidic magic (Western Plaguelands) than to make dusty land fertile (Barrens/Desolace).
    And I am sure that all the quests there are about putting down hostile creatures and pacifying the area.

    If any hostile creature arises, they can simply be put down by the Horde army.

    You see? Garrosh and the Horde did not need to start a world war and commit genocide to get more farmlands.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    And I am sure that all the quests there are about putting down hostile creatures and pacifying the area.

    If any hostile creature arises, they can simply be put down by the Horde army.

    You see? Garrosh and the Horde did not need to start a world war and commit genocide to get more farmlands.
    As far as I'm aware none of the quests show that such areas of overgrowth make suitable farmlands once the tentacles are stomped out. Green does not equal fertile, jungles irl produce very little food despite the lush visuals. Even ingame, Stranglethorn Vale is very green but you don't see much agriculture going on. The Horde being strained on farmable land was more or less believable considering Blizzard's standards imo.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    As far as I'm aware none of the quests show that such areas of overgrowth make suitable farmlands once the tentacles are stomped out. Green does not equal fertile, jungles irl produce very little food despite the lush visuals. Even ingame, Stranglethorn Vale is very green but you don't see much agriculture going on. The Horde being strained on farmable land was more or less believable considering Blizzard's standards imo.
    As Feanoro earlier addressed, irl jungles have been turned into farmlands.

    Furthermore, several Kalimdor Horde races thrive in jungles. The darkspears are literally jungle trolls, the orcs inhabited the Spires of Arak and Tanaan Jungle, and certain tauren inhabit Feralas.

    And the EK Horde could just use Western Lordareon to grow food. Contrary to its appearance as a Scourge-blighted region, Tirisfal had huge farmlands that could sustain a moderately-large Scarlet Crusade town, before the Forsaken moved in to slaughter everyone living there ofc. And Hillsbrad also had huge farmlands, before the Forsaken moved in, slaughtered everyone there, and turned the place into a blighted slave camp. Silverpine Forest also has farms, and since the region is less corrupted than Tirisfal, they should produce better crop as well.

    The problem with the Forsaken is that they would rather treat human civilians as literal living crop, instead of acting like normal, decent mortals and grow crops in their lands that they could then trade with their allies in Kalimdor. The Scarlet Crusade grew pumpkins in Tirisfal; there's no reason why the Forsaken couldn't either, many of them were literally Lordaeron farmers in life, and clearly the terrain is still fertile despite the Scourge corruption.

    Regardless, No, the Horde most certainly did not need to invade the Night elf lands to get the resources they so desperately needed.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-09-26 at 11:51 AM.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    As Feanoro earlier addressed, irl jungles have been turned into farmlands.

    Furthermore, several Kalimdor Horde races thrive in jungles. The darkspears are literally jungle trolls, the orcs inhabited the Spires of Arak and Tanaan Jungle, and certain tauren inhabit Feralas.

    And the EK Horde could just use Western Lordareon to grow food. Contrary to its appearance as a Scourge-blighted region, Tirisfal had huge farmlands that could sustain a moderately-large Scarlet Crusade town, before the Forsaken moved in to slaughter everyone living there ofc. And Hillsbrad also had huge farmlands, before the Forsaken moved in, slaughtered everyone there, and turned the place into a blighted slave camp. Silverpine Forest also has farms, and since the region is less corrupted than Tirisfal, they should produce better crop as well.

    The problem with the Forsaken is that they would rather treat human civilians as literal living crop, instead of acting like normal, decent mortals and grow crops in their lands that they could then trade with their allies in Kalimdor. The Scarlet Crusade grew pumpkins in Tirisfal; there's no reason why the Forsaken couldn't either, many of them were literally Lordaeron farmers in life, and clearly the terrain is still fertile despite the Scourge corruption.

    Regardless, No, the Horde most certainly did not need to invade the Night elf lands to get the resources they so desperately needed.
    It was all fine and dandy when trolls and orcs were small tribes moving through the jungle or steppes, if I recall correctly problems arose when the city of Orgrimmar started booming. There was this short story during Cata where Krenna (orc lady Horde PCs get to kill in Grizzly Hills) was absolutely miserable living in Orgrimmar and having to get food and drinking water from miles away. Small groups of humans can survive quite well in the jungle if Stranglethorn's any measure but Stormwind has an immense span of farmland stretching Elwyn, Westfall, Redridge and Duskwood. I'd wager the same principles apply here.

    As for the EK races I believe they were more or less self sustaining - the elves lived happily off the Sunwell while Forsaken NPCs have never really expressed a concern for food and drinks (and we don't even know if the undead need standard food and drinking water in the first place). Garrosh's aggression in Cataclysm was mostly a Durotar/Orgrimmar issue, hence the invasion of Ashenvale, the closest fertile land in the vicinity. The aforementioned short story describes Garrosh being deeply troubled by Krenna's complaints and vowing to better the lives of those in Durotar.

    As for the direct interest behind the invasion, I believe there was a novel where Durotar was in a state of famine due to Deathwing's Shattering and attempted to open trade with the NE of Ashenvale. The elves refused to trade, because they considered Orgrimmar responsible for the acts of Putress during the Wrathgate battle. Thrall and Cairne tried to negotiate while Garrosh being Garrosh wanted to conquer Ashenvale and establish a new city there. When Thrall became World Shaman and Cairne was killed during Mak'gora, there was noone left to stop Garrosh from carrying his plan out.

  16. #236
    Herald of the Titans Z3ROR's Avatar
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    I want to see an event that makes things even worse. An event that is splitting the two factions into three factions. Lorewise it might not fit at all (haven't dive into their lore too much), but i was thinking of the following as the third faction. Maybe the faction can be called the Nightkin or something.

    "Third Faction": Undead, Blood Elves, Worgen, Kul Tiran, Void Elves, Nightborne

    Leaves this for the existing factions:
    Alliance: Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Night Elves, Dreanei, Mechagnomes, Lightforged, Dark Iron
    Horde: Orc, Tauren, Trolls, Goblins, Maghar, Highmountain, Zandalari, Vulpera
    Neutral: Pandaren, Drakthyr

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The point you bring up reminds me of a stupid, nonsensical thing Lor'themar Theron once said. He once said something along the lines of "When will they [the Alliance] see that the Horde exists only because of them?!??!", which is just hilarious, given how the Alliance was literally formed because the Horde invaded their world, while the Horde was formed because the orcs wanted to conquer stuff, and it's even said that if the Horde never invaded, there would be no Alliance and the human kingdoms would actually start fighting amongst each other.
    You are talking about 2 different "The Hordes". The Horde that invaded Azeroth was "The Orcs", mind controlled by Sargeras. The Horde that currently resides in World of Warcraft is a military alliance between multiple people groups. The first Horde was formed the "conquer stuff", as you say. The current Horde was formed to preserve themselves.

    If you want to see how the current Horde came to be, it is shown through the story of Warcraft III. In that story you can see various oppressed groups banding together to overcome their oppressors. So both statements can be true. It doesn't have to be one or the other. The Alliance exists because of the Orcs. The current Horde exists largely due to the humans - though obviously the impending Burning Legion invasion and Medivh's (a human) intervention had a lot to do with it as well. But if the Orcs aren't enslaved by humans, it's likely Thrall never forms the new Horde in the first place.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    Green does not equal fertile, jungles irl produce very little food despite the lush visuals.
    As I've already said (and you appear to be ignoring), there are no naturally occurring farmlands. Jungles are incredibly fertile areas that can be and have been reclaimed into useful farmland.

    Even ingame, Stranglethorn Vale is very green but you don't see much agriculture going on.
    Non sequitur. The few inhabitants of STV failing to put in the work of agriculture doesn't imply STV is incapable of supporting it.

    The Horde being strained on farmable land was more or less believable considering Blizzard's standards imo.
    It's one of the single most ridiculous claims in the entire faction stalemate, and that's saying something.


    This is increasingly looking like another attempt to defend the Horde (and by extension Blizzard) at all costs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  19. #239
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd rather it had been done organically with the factions actually being dissolved because something happened that made it make sense.
    I don't think it has to be quite so black and white. If say the Horde and Alliance don't like each other, that doesn't mean I have to. Sure you can opt into violence at any time. But that's warmode. Outside of Warmode, I see 0 reason I wouldn't be able to interact with a Horde player, group up, do anything. I hung out with them in my Class hall.

    I'm not saying a Horde player would be invited into Stormwind, but if we're chillin in Dalaran. Why not.

    PS. Since the Forsaken invented a democratic system, soon other races will realize open trade is superior to war. Should have happened already. At the moment it's "Horde elects a Fascist" every so often. And the Alliance still operates as a monarchy despite the Dwarves having a Senate, the gnomes having a democracy, the Kaldorei/ Draenei having a theocracy, and the rest dont have anything really.
    Last edited by roahn the warlock; 2022-09-26 at 02:36 PM.
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    The current Horde was formed to preserve themselves.
    Then perhaps keeping all the trappings of the Old Horde and honoring its bloodthirsty psychos wasn't the smartest move, since the current Horde seems to be very confused as to its purpose.

    But if the Orcs aren't enslaved by humans, it's likely Thrall never forms the new Horde in the first place.
    There were exactly two sane options for dealing with the defeated Old Horde, lock them up or execute them. Remember, this was a demon-fueled nigh unstoppable army that had just razed a continent. Booting them back through the portal or otherwise letting them go their merry way would be (in game perspective) insane and suicidal, as the Alliance had no guarantee the Horde wouldn't lick its wounds and try again. No sane leader would allow such a threat to go free.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

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