Is it time to scrap the Alliance and Horde?

[Feanoro]

Mulgore is mostly portrayed as grasslands rather than fertile farmland, kinda like the Mongolian steppes I'd imagine.

Real world grasslands have been converted to some of the breadbaskets of the world. As portrayed, the only reasons that Mulgore isn't one giant farm are Blizzard's abysmal ignorance of agriculture and laziness in world building.

Feralas is a jungle. Jungles are notorious for producing very little food, not to mention the area is shared by both factions.

Jungles and swamps can be and have been reclaimed to become farmland.

Tirisfal and the Plaguelands were originally done in by the Scourge and whatever yields they produce are likely only edible to the Forsaken.

Tirisfal isn't shown as plagued, neither is Silverpine. Haunted by the undead, sure.

The Horde's lack of access to fertile land has been canon since Cataclysm, and I don't think there have been developments to change that since.

The Horde was given Azshara. Not them seizing it, it was GIVEN to them. They proceed to build goblin rocket raceways and keep whining they have no fertile land. The reality is that both they and Blizzard are unwilling to put in the work needed to make farmland.

[Caiphon]

Real world grasslands have been converted to some of the breadbaskets of the world. As portrayed, the only reasons that Mulgore isn't one giant farm are Blizzard's abysmal ignorance of agriculture and laziness in world building.

Jungles and swamps can be and have been reclaimed to become farmland.

Tirisfal isn't shown as plagued, neither is Silverpine. Haunted by the undead, sure.

The Horde was given Azshara. Not them seizing it, it was GIVEN to them. They proceed to build goblin rocket raceways and keep whining they have no fertile land. The reality is that both they and Blizzard are unwilling to put in the work needed to make farmland.

Drastic repurposing of terrain often requires modern technology that most Azerothian civilisations would not have access to. And Tirisfal is still very much under the influence of the plague, just take a look at the quests involving any sort of agricultural produce. Silverpine a bit less so but it's overrun by rogue undead and worgen.

At the end of the day it's Blizzard that makes the call on whether the setting is advanced enough for the Horde to repurpose what they have. Considering noone was able to argue against Garrosh's desire to expand on the basis of such endeavors (opposing individuals didn't go beyond 'war bad peace good') I think it's safe to say that such technology is currently unavailable. Yes it's strange that we have spaceship slinging space goats running around but can't raze jungles and swamps to create farmland, but I guess WoW still loosely adheres to a medieval-like fantasy setting.

[Feanoro]

Drastic repurposing of terrain often requires modern technology that most Azerothian civilisations would not have access to.

The real world grasslands and jungles I've referred to have been made farmland with nothing more advanced than an ox and plow, hand tools, and human sweat. There is no naturally occurring tidy farmland; it has always been people converting land, and that's been done for millennia.

Again, this is pure ignorance and laziness on Blizzard's part.

[VladlTutushkin]

The real world grasslands and jungles I've referred to have been made farmland with nothing more advanced than an ox and plow, hand tools, and human sweat. There is no naturally occurring tidy farmland; it has always been people converting land, and that's been done for millennia.

Again, this is pure ignorance and laziness on Blizzard's part.

Too true. In real world, without magic and "gobling/gnome tech" we had many cultures turn arid or swamp land into arable land. And even those lands that have fertile soil require work to turn truly fit for agriculture on any serious scale.

In fact, we saw how a small group of druids can turn patch of Barrens into an Overgrowth, problem was that they went TOO FAR. So just a pinch of this can turn Barrens soil into fertile land.

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Drastic repurposing of terrain often requires modern technology that most Azerothian civilisations would not have access to. And Tirisfal is still very much under the influence of the plague, just take a look at the quests involving any sort of agricultural produce. Silverpine a bit less so but it's overrun by rogue undead and worgen.

At the end of the day it's Blizzard that makes the call on whether the setting is advanced enough for the Horde to repurpose what they have. Considering noone was able to argue against Garrosh's desire to expand on the basis of such endeavors (opposing individuals didn't go beyond 'war bad peace good') I think it's safe to say that such technology is currently unavailable. Yes it's strange that we have spaceship slinging space goats running around but can't raze jungles and swamps to create farmland, but I guess WoW still loosely adheres to a medieval-like fantasy setting.

War against supposedly equal superpower is never a viable way to obtain land and/or resources. You will waste more on waging war, lose people, lose time and etc. Only wars that ever gained anything were against a vastly weaker enemy.

Also it may cause a long lasting conflict that will prevent your civic development and potentially cause a collapse of your own faction before you destroy an enemy.

And WoW always makes an emphasis on how it is impossible for one faction to fell another, so any war between them is a WASTE from the get go. Nobody will gain in the end, and supposedly more impoverished Horde stands to lose far more by throwing resources into the unsustainable war efforts which will , as always, end in nothing.

[Aucald]

Weird argument how "Horde dosent score victories" yet Alliance are made fucken fools, losers and pansies so many times in lore that it spread further than even WoW fandom and people who barely heard of the game (i mean gamers who dont play WoW) saw memes of Alliance being a sucker faction.

Um, it's not really an argument on my part - the previous poster said the Horde only scored two victories over the Alliance since Vanilla WoW, and I documented other occasions where the Horde could be said to have been victorious in battle. Beyond that, I don't really buy into the meme rationale as the "Alliance as pansies/suckers" that you and a few others seem to. I would say the Alliance tends to be reactive as opposed to proactive, but that's not really a blandishment on it. It also scans that the Alliance would be more democratic and discerning when it comes to conflict, given its nature as a collection of nation-states with alliances based on both historical and diplomatic connections as opposed to the Horde's more totalitarian-leaning partnerships of necessity and mutual protection.

[Nymrohd]

Drastic repurposing of terrain often requires modern technology that most Azerothian civilisations would not have access to. And Tirisfal is still very much under the influence of the plague, just take a look at the quests involving any sort of agricultural produce. Silverpine a bit less so but it's overrun by rogue undead and worgen.

Eh, classic Tirisfal was full of perfectly working farms of living humans that the Forsaken proceded to plague for their various experiments.

[Aresk]

Pandaria belonged to neither the Horde nor the Alliance, both factions were fighting purely to stop the other from claiming it. Not the best of reasons to wage war, especially on a continent that already had fairly powerful inhabitants occupying it for at least 10,000 years. Both sides would have benefited far more if they approached Pandaria diplomatically, hence the remark that the factions don't even know what they're fighting for.

The Horde and the Alliance were fighting a naval war (with the Horde scoring decisive victories) when the ship containing Anduin ran aground on Pandaria. The Alliance dispatched their forces to find the crown prince before the Horde did. The Horde dispatched their forces to "paint this new continent red." Both sides tried to approach the situation with the natives diplomatically, hence the arming of the jinyu and hozen in attempts to enlist their support for the respective factions. The factions didn't approach things diplomatically with one another because they were already in active conflict with one another.

Also worth mentioning that the Alliance and Horde had taken out the Lich King some two to three years prior to MoP, neutralising the then-biggest threat to Azeroth in a cooperative effort. They also fought against the Legion together during the events of Reign of Chaos. It's not like the factions had never had peace or stood on the same side - in fact both factions benefited significantly (as in wasn't annihilated by demons or the Scourge) by working with each other.

They also worked together against Deathwing in Cata, with both committing airships to Wyrmrest Temple and the Alliance permitting the Horde troops to use theirs after Deathwing destroyed the Horde's ship. That hasn't meant a cessation of hostilities, with the two factions literally trying to kill one another while they assaulted Icecrown during your mentioned confrontation against the Lich King and then the events of Theramore and the naval conflicts after Deathwing. While they CAN work together, I don't know why you would expect them to do so when it came to a rescue/pursuit mission regarding the aftermath of one of their own naval conflicts. "Hey, I know you just destroyed the royal flagship. Do you mind helping us look for survivors on this new land before we return to beating each other up?" That would be akin to the Horde requesting that Deathwing give them a hand fixing the giant rift he caused through the Barrens before going back to destroying Azeroth just because they worked together back in WC2.

[Varodoc]

Eh, classic Tirisfal was full of perfectly working farms of living humans that the Forsaken proceded to plague for their various experiments.

Tirisfal in the BfA cinematics also looked perfectly healthy, with lush trees and a sunny sky.

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The real world grasslands and jungles I've referred to have been made farmland with nothing more advanced than an ox and plow, hand tools, and human sweat. There is no naturally occurring tidy farmland; it has always been people converting land, and that's been done for millennia.

Again, this is pure ignorance and laziness on Blizzard's part.

Yeah.

It should be even easier to do in WoW since they have magic druidic bullshit. Just look at how they restored the Western Plaguelands from Chernobyl to a semi-decent farming area (iirc there are even Alliance farmers there, before morally grey Sylvanas and Forsaken move in, butcher everyone mercilessly, and add their corpses into their army of the dead).

I mean, one tauren dude in the Barrens was already regrowing the nature there.

The Horde has hundreds if not thousands of druids in their ranks, it should have been pretty easy for them to heal and nurture the soil and turn it fertile.

[Caiphon]

The Horde has hundreds if not thousands of druids in their ranks, it should have been pretty easy for them to heal and nurture the soil and turn it fertile.

To be fair, in an effort to 'nurture' the Barrens Naralex managed to cover a considerable area with aggressive plant-tentacles. The druidic shenanigans do come with risks. This is just speculation but it may be easier/safer to cleanse corruption with druidic magic (Western Plaguelands) than to make dusty land fertile (Barrens/Desolace).

[Varodoc]

To be fair, in an effort to 'nurture' the Barrens Naralex managed to cover a considerable area with aggressive plant-tentacles. The druidic shenanigans do come with risks. This is just speculation but it may be easier/safer to cleanse corruption with druidic magic (Western Plaguelands) than to make dusty land fertile (Barrens/Desolace).

And I am sure that all the quests there are about putting down hostile creatures and pacifying the area.

If any hostile creature arises, they can simply be put down by the Horde army.

You see? Garrosh and the Horde did not need to start a world war and commit genocide to get more farmlands.

[Caiphon]

And I am sure that all the quests there are about putting down hostile creatures and pacifying the area.

If any hostile creature arises, they can simply be put down by the Horde army.

You see? Garrosh and the Horde did not need to start a world war and commit genocide to get more farmlands.

As far as I'm aware none of the quests show that such areas of overgrowth make suitable farmlands once the tentacles are stomped out. Green does not equal fertile, jungles irl produce very little food despite the lush visuals. Even ingame, Stranglethorn Vale is very green but you don't see much agriculture going on. The Horde being strained on farmable land was more or less believable considering Blizzard's standards imo.

[Varodoc]

As far as I'm aware none of the quests show that such areas of overgrowth make suitable farmlands once the tentacles are stomped out. Green does not equal fertile, jungles irl produce very little food despite the lush visuals. Even ingame, Stranglethorn Vale is very green but you don't see much agriculture going on. The Horde being strained on farmable land was more or less believable considering Blizzard's standards imo.

As Feanoro earlier addressed, irl jungles have been turned into farmlands.

Furthermore, several Kalimdor Horde races thrive in jungles. The darkspears are literally jungle trolls, the orcs inhabited the Spires of Arak and Tanaan Jungle, and certain tauren inhabit Feralas.

And the EK Horde could just use Western Lordareon to grow food. Contrary to its appearance as a Scourge-blighted region, Tirisfal had huge farmlands that could sustain a moderately-large Scarlet Crusade town, before the Forsaken moved in to slaughter everyone living there ofc. And Hillsbrad also had huge farmlands, before the Forsaken moved in, slaughtered everyone there, and turned the place into a blighted slave camp. Silverpine Forest also has farms, and since the region is less corrupted than Tirisfal, they should produce better crop as well.

The problem with the Forsaken is that they would rather treat human civilians as literal living crop, instead of acting like normal, decent mortals and grow crops in their lands that they could then trade with their allies in Kalimdor. The Scarlet Crusade grew pumpkins in Tirisfal; there's no reason why the Forsaken couldn't either, many of them were literally Lordaeron farmers in life, and clearly the terrain is still fertile despite the Scourge corruption.

Regardless, No, the Horde most certainly did not need to invade the Night elf lands to get the resources they so desperately needed.

[Caiphon]

As Feanoro earlier addressed, irl jungles have been turned into farmlands.

Furthermore, several Kalimdor Horde races thrive in jungles. The darkspears are literally jungle trolls, the orcs inhabited the Spires of Arak and Tanaan Jungle, and certain tauren inhabit Feralas.

And the EK Horde could just use Western Lordareon to grow food. Contrary to its appearance as a Scourge-blighted region, Tirisfal had huge farmlands that could sustain a moderately-large Scarlet Crusade town, before the Forsaken moved in to slaughter everyone living there ofc. And Hillsbrad also had huge farmlands, before the Forsaken moved in, slaughtered everyone there, and turned the place into a blighted slave camp. Silverpine Forest also has farms, and since the region is less corrupted than Tirisfal, they should produce better crop as well.

The problem with the Forsaken is that they would rather treat human civilians as literal living crop, instead of acting like normal, decent mortals and grow crops in their lands that they could then trade with their allies in Kalimdor. The Scarlet Crusade grew pumpkins in Tirisfal; there's no reason why the Forsaken couldn't either, many of them were literally Lordaeron farmers in life, and clearly the terrain is still fertile despite the Scourge corruption.

Regardless, No, the Horde most certainly did not need to invade the Night elf lands to get the resources they so desperately needed.

It was all fine and dandy when trolls and orcs were small tribes moving through the jungle or steppes, if I recall correctly problems arose when the city of Orgrimmar started booming. There was this short story during Cata where Krenna (orc lady Horde PCs get to kill in Grizzly Hills) was absolutely miserable living in Orgrimmar and having to get food and drinking water from miles away. Small groups of humans can survive quite well in the jungle if Stranglethorn's any measure but Stormwind has an immense span of farmland stretching Elwyn, Westfall, Redridge and Duskwood. I'd wager the same principles apply here.

As for the EK races I believe they were more or less self sustaining - the elves lived happily off the Sunwell while Forsaken NPCs have never really expressed a concern for food and drinks (and we don't even know if the undead need standard food and drinking water in the first place). Garrosh's aggression in Cataclysm was mostly a Durotar/Orgrimmar issue, hence the invasion of Ashenvale, the closest fertile land in the vicinity. The aforementioned short story describes Garrosh being deeply troubled by Krenna's complaints and vowing to better the lives of those in Durotar.

As for the direct interest behind the invasion, I believe there was a novel where Durotar was in a state of famine due to Deathwing's Shattering and attempted to open trade with the NE of Ashenvale. The elves refused to trade, because they considered Orgrimmar responsible for the acts of Putress during the Wrathgate battle. Thrall and Cairne tried to negotiate while Garrosh being Garrosh wanted to conquer Ashenvale and establish a new city there. When Thrall became World Shaman and Cairne was killed during Mak'gora, there was noone left to stop Garrosh from carrying his plan out.

[Z3ROR]

I want to see an event that makes things even worse. An event that is splitting the two factions into three factions. Lorewise it might not fit at all (haven't dive into their lore too much), but i was thinking of the following as the third faction. Maybe the faction can be called the Nightkin or something.

"Third Faction": Undead, Blood Elves, Worgen, Kul Tiran, Void Elves, Nightborne

Leaves this for the existing factions:
Alliance: Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Night Elves, Dreanei, Mechagnomes, Lightforged, Dark Iron
Horde: Orc, Tauren, Trolls, Goblins, Maghar, Highmountain, Zandalari, Vulpera
Neutral: Pandaren, Drakthyr

[Ragedaug]

The point you bring up reminds me of a stupid, nonsensical thing Lor'themar Theron once said. He once said something along the lines of "When will they [the Alliance] see that the Horde exists only because of them?!??!", which is just hilarious, given how the Alliance was literally formed because the Horde invaded their world, while the Horde was formed because the orcs wanted to conquer stuff, and it's even said that if the Horde never invaded, there would be no Alliance and the human kingdoms would actually start fighting amongst each other.

You are talking about 2 different "The Hordes". The Horde that invaded Azeroth was "The Orcs", mind controlled by Sargeras. The Horde that currently resides in World of Warcraft is a military alliance between multiple people groups. The first Horde was formed the "conquer stuff", as you say. The current Horde was formed to preserve themselves.

If you want to see how the current Horde came to be, it is shown through the story of Warcraft III. In that story you can see various oppressed groups banding together to overcome their oppressors. So both statements can be true. It doesn't have to be one or the other. The Alliance exists because of the Orcs. The current Horde exists largely due to the humans - though obviously the impending Burning Legion invasion and Medivh's (a human) intervention had a lot to do with it as well. But if the Orcs aren't enslaved by humans, it's likely Thrall never forms the new Horde in the first place.

[Feanoro]

Green does not equal fertile, jungles irl produce very little food despite the lush visuals.

As I've already said (and you appear to be ignoring), there are no naturally occurring farmlands. Jungles are incredibly fertile areas that can be and have been reclaimed into useful farmland.

Even ingame, Stranglethorn Vale is very green but you don't see much agriculture going on.

Non sequitur. The few inhabitants of STV failing to put in the work of agriculture doesn't imply STV is incapable of supporting it.

The Horde being strained on farmable land was more or less believable considering Blizzard's standards imo.

It's one of the single most ridiculous claims in the entire faction stalemate, and that's saying something.


This is increasingly looking like another attempt to defend the Horde (and by extension Blizzard) at all costs.

[roahn the warlock]

I'd rather it had been done organically with the factions actually being dissolved because something happened that made it make sense.

I don't think it has to be quite so black and white. If say the Horde and Alliance don't like each other, that doesn't mean I have to. Sure you can opt into violence at any time. But that's warmode. Outside of Warmode, I see 0 reason I wouldn't be able to interact with a Horde player, group up, do anything. I hung out with them in my Class hall.

I'm not saying a Horde player would be invited into Stormwind, but if we're chillin in Dalaran. Why not.

PS. Since the Forsaken invented a democratic system, soon other races will realize open trade is superior to war. Should have happened already. At the moment it's "Horde elects a Fascist" every so often. And the Alliance still operates as a monarchy despite the Dwarves having a Senate, the gnomes having a democracy, the Kaldorei/ Draenei having a theocracy, and the rest dont have anything really.

[Feanoro]

The current Horde was formed to preserve themselves.

Then perhaps keeping all the trappings of the Old Horde and honoring its bloodthirsty psychos wasn't the smartest move, since the current Horde seems to be very confused as to its purpose.

But if the Orcs aren't enslaved by humans, it's likely Thrall never forms the new Horde in the first place.

There were exactly two sane options for dealing with the defeated Old Horde, lock them up or execute them. Remember, this was a demon-fueled nigh unstoppable army that had just razed a continent. Booting them back through the portal or otherwise letting them go their merry way would be (in game perspective) insane and suicidal, as the Alliance had no guarantee the Horde wouldn't lick its wounds and try again. No sane leader would allow such a threat to go free.

[Varodoc]

You are talking about 2 different "The Hordes". The Horde that invaded Azeroth was "The Orcs", mind controlled by Sargeras. The Horde that currently resides in World of Warcraft is a military alliance between multiple people groups. The first Horde was formed the "conquer stuff", as you say. The current Horde was formed to preserve themselves.

If you want to see how the current Horde came to be, it is shown through the story of Warcraft III. In that story you can see various oppressed groups banding together to overcome their oppressors. So both statements can be true. It doesn't have to be one or the other. The Alliance exists because of the Orcs. The current Horde exists largely due to the humans - though obviously the impending Burning Legion invasion and Medivh's (a human) intervention had a lot to do with it as well. But if the Orcs aren't enslaved by humans, it's likely Thrall never forms the new Horde in the first place.

Strange, the first thing I see upon starting WC3 is Thrall leading an orcish army through a human town in clear violation of the Alliance Internment Act that was keeping the peace in the land.

And your attempt at excusing the Horde of their crimes is easily disproven by Saurfang noting that the majority of the modern Horde follow the bloody legacy of Blackhand, while Thrall and Vol'jin were the outliers.

Finally, any attempt at disconnecting the WoW Horde from the Old Horde is futile as the WoW Horde literally named their capital after the Warchief of the Old Horde. The moment Blizzard decided that the """"modern""" Horde capital should be named "Orgrimmar" is the moment your entire argumentation crumbled to dust.

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This is increasingly looking like another attempt to defend the Horde (and by extension Blizzard) at all costs.

The thing is that Blizzard itself never defended Garrosh or presented him as a reasonable dude, in fact pretty much everyone immediately turned on him, as they saw that he was a genocidal lunatic, starting with Cairne and Vol'jin.

It's just a vocal minority on this forum that is adamant on defending Garrosh's and the Horde's actions in Cataclysm, even though the story never makes any attempt at doing so.

[Caiphon]

As I've already said (and you appear to be ignoring), there are no naturally occurring farmlands. Jungles are incredibly fertile areas that can be and have been reclaimed into useful farmland.

Jungles tend to have thin, loose topsoil that is easily removed through heavy rainfall (which tropical climates tend to have plenty of). This exposes the subsoil which contains little organic material and is quick to dry, resulting in a fairly dusty patch of land that has limited potential for growing crops. Jungles made farmland yield good harvests for a year or two then rapidly deteriorate as the topsoil is expended. Look up 'jungle topsoil' on google and you'll see plenty of irl examples.

Yes this can be remedied to an extent through various means (ex. chemical fertilisers) but we don't really know how advanced Azerothian agricultural science is - after all these folks primarily fight with swords and axes.

It's one of the single most ridiculous claims in the entire faction stalemate, and that's saying something.

Between Sylvanas loyalists abandoning their beloved queen because of a single utterance, the Zandalari throwing their entire army at literal mists AND failing to notice that their entire fleet had been rigged with bombs for a while, the Kaldorei fighting absymally in their own lands in response to an extremely forseeable attack etc. the Horde's food shortage certainly isn't on the more ridiculous side of Blizzard's plot spectrum. Which leads to the next part:

This is increasingly looking like another attempt to defend the Horde (and by extension Blizzard) at all costs.

I have loathed Blizzard's storytelling since mid MoP and would likely be one of the last folks to defend that aspect of the company. However I do not think it's an extreme stretch for them to say the Horde lacked food and farmlands, especially in the region surrounding their capital. They also went great lengths through online stories and novels explaining how Orgrimmar was struck with famine after the Shattering, which is something they don't do anymore when implementing monumental lore events. Durotar is a wasteland and the Barrens are, well, literally called the Barrens. If Ashenvale is as fertile as the stories make it out to be it's not far fetched for a hot headed militant warchief to invade, real life leaders have made war for much less.

I will say though that I'm also not one of the three or four people with a hate boner for the Horde, droning on and on about how the Horde should be dismantled, how they should have been wiped from Azeroth long ago and etc. This isn't Warhammer Fantasy where the factions are black and white. The Horde and its champions have stood up against countless threats to the planet ranging from the Legion, the Scourge, the Old Gods and their lackies and of course bald man. And they will continue to do so, even if it means standing with the Alliance, should the world be threated by another force of evil. And if you've played the DF beta you'll know that even Alliance characters generally acknowledge this, albeit to varying degrees.