Arthas and NerZhul resisted domination their entire afterlife

[Athorha]

What was seen with shadowlands was that domination magic originated from the primus. Obviously then you could say he was the one crafting frostmourne. Arthas resisted domination just as much as he fed into his own intuition. Starting with the abominations of stratholme. Nerzhul used kil'jaeden as a pawn in retrospect, especially the events of wc3, big dick move by the dreadlords? Cannot be judging by the layout of sod, remnant of nerzhul was a prisoner in sanctum, just like garrosh spirit.



Not that they did it for positive world reasons, maybe they did, but some story elements could fall either direction?

[Felrane]

Likely how KJ used the armor. He shoved Ner'zhuls soul into the armor instead of giving it to someone who was alive. Ner'zhuls soul was never trapped into Frostmorne to dominate him? We dont really know since it was all retconned what and who created the LK.

[Hctaz]

Likely how KJ used the armor. He shoved Ner'zhuls soul into the armor instead of giving it to someone who was alive. Ner'zhuls soul was never trapped into Frostmorne to dominate him? We dont really know since it was all retconned what and who created the LK.

This lol

The entire history of the Lich King was retconned at this point, and I don't think it was done in a way that attempted to stay consistent to the prior lore. Hard to really pinpoint exactly what happened to Arthas and Nerzhul.

[Triceron]

Yeah.

The retcons hit hard and the lore is all over the place now.

[enigma77]

Disregard Shadowlands story developments.

Profit.

[Super Dickmann]

It's not even speculation, it's stated explicitly that neither was controlled by the Bald Man at any point in both the Sylvanas book and in-game. Pre-SL Retcons Arthas reaffirmed that what he did as a DK were his calls in the Arthas book and offed Nerz'hul. Post-SL Arthas did his own thing once he took the helm which is why the Bald Man was assmad about him. Ner'zhul on the other hand is basically unchanged and also did his own thing, foremost grooming Arthas for the part and getting him to off Mal'ganis, which is why we find him tortured in SoD.

The sum of SL changes to their story in particular are entirely indirect. Who made the helm - the Dreadlords pre-SL, the Primus commissioned by the Dreadlords post-SL. Not even the Dreadlord retcon affects their story, in so far as do in TFT changes since in either case they were trying to take a rogue asset, it's just that SL runs to the end point with their lines heavily implying that they were doing their own takeover and considered the Legion done for the time being.

[Soeroah]

Part of the Jailer's lore is that he allowed Arthas and Ner'zhul enough freedom to do what they wanted and just whispered at them to try to get them to achieve his goals, and then did the same with Bolvar, who's the only one who really resisted. By the time Shadowlands rolls around he was impatient and decided to just force it with Anduin - that's why he was reluctant to give Sylvanas enough time to convince Anduin to join them willingly; he had gone through the "willing puppet" thing twice already (three if you count Bolvar) and it kept failing.

It's also why the Jailer discarded/abused Arthas and Ner'zhul's souls after their deaths instead of using them as generals in his army the way he did Kel'thuzad. They were basically traitors to his cause, so he used them as tools. Kel'thuzad was the most successful agent he had on Azeroth, even if KT wasn't aware of it most of the time he spent there, so he got a second chance.

[JunktownVendor]

The Jailer, in the Sylvanas novel at least and a tad bit in the game, but just a tad - is shown to want people on his side rather than Dominated. So he didn't really try to Dominate Ner'zhul and Arthas. Anduin was him being tired of all the games and convincing.

Arthas was more controlled by Ner'zhul, however he rekt Ner'zhul after putting on the helmet.

[Caerule]

The Jailer, in the Sylvanas novel at least and a tad bit in the game, but just a tad - is shown to want people on his side rather than Dominated. So he didn't really try to Dominate Ner'zhul and Arthas. Anduin was him being tired of all the games and convincing.

Arthas was more controlled by Ner'zhul, however he rekt Ner'zhul after putting on the helmet.

I don't think that's actually true. That's the lie he told Sylvanas. I think he may have feared her resisting his domination, as she escaped the Lich King's, and he couldn't afford another failure.

In the end, Sylvanas turns on him when in his moment of triumph the truth slips out. "All shall serve me".

It's important to know the Jailer lies. He never told her his true goals. He wanted to unite the cosmos in servitude, turning everything like the Maw, where all were bound by his cruel will. He promised a better world. Justice. But in the end he is just a guy that doesn't trust anyone and sees himself as the only one worthy of power. He never revealed he held a part of her soul, nor that Nathanos had died. The Jailer twists truth, hides things and lies.


As for Ner'zhul and Arthas, Neither went as far as the Jailer wanted. Neither delivered Azeroth into his hands. Neither fell fully under his control. And both seem to have been punished for this, reforged into just another weapon for the Jailer to use.

[Universalgirl]

Could there be another Death God? A Prognetior Jailor, who actually was the really one who was in charge?

[Caerule]

Could there be another Death God? A Prognetior Jailor, who actually was the really one who was in charge?

As I understand the lore of the First Ones, there were six of them, and they all gave of their own essence to spawn the cosmic forces, with the goal of unifying their power into something greater than each of them is individually. Most probably due to, like every pantheon spawned in their image, they too had one of their own go rogue and attempt to dominate. A flaw in their unity, that echoes through their song of creation, so we see it with every pantheon in this setting.

So, there would in fact be, or have been, a progenitor of Death. So far there's no sign that the First Ones are actually still around though. Their creations are ancient, nothing recent. It remains to be seen if they remain outside of their creation, if they sacrificed themselves to create the universe, or if they lost the war to their fallen one, and are dead.

Either way, this Progenitor of Death is very much unlikely to have been in charge. Because the Jailer did not understand the Plan. He realized there was a threat to the cosmos that existed beyond it. A 7th force, stronger than the current 6 cosmic forces. He also understood, that to survive, the cosmic forces will need to reach unity. But he thought he was the only adult in the room, so he would be the only one able to do it. Through force and domination. He didn't understand the goal of the First Ones.

It's pretty clear that what the first ones were hoping to create, is mortals. Beings not of a single cosmic force, but something new. A new force, stronger than any cosmic force, which we've shown by beating those we've come up against so far, and able to wield the power of all the cosmic forces, and others that have spawned since, like the elemental forces. The Heroes of Azeroth are the pantheon of this cosmos, and if they are to fulfill the purpose of the First Ones, they will eventually have to unite all the cosmic powers, and overcome the power of the yet-unseen 7th cosmic force.

All that is to say, there is or was a greater force of Death, but I don't think it was really in charge. Because the Jailer was going rogue.

[Kralljin]

They were basically traitors to his cause, so he used them as tools.

Doesn't this contradict itself?

Seems stupid to give someone enough freedom to the point where they are basically unaware of your existence, merely influencing them in a subtle fashion to do what you want, then flip the script and punish them for being traitors once they fuck up.

Treason in my view implies that they "joined" a side and knew that they're acting against those interest, when Ner'zhul and Arthas worst crime was just failing.
For that treason angle to work, they must've been aware of the Jailer and said "nope, fuck it, i'm doing my own thing".

And saying that KT is the "most successful agent" is also a stretch, KT succeeded when Ner'zhul / Arthas succeeded and failed when they failed.
KT was on the winning side from pre WC3 to TFT, that's also where Ner'zhul successfully played the Legion and recruited Arthas into fold of the Scourge.

All of them failed once WoW hit the floor and the Scourge was defeated by the players, KT vanished from the players eye since he got wrecked the 2nd time in Naxx.
Unless we apply different standards because Kel'thuzad was technically below the LK in the Scourge hierarchy and thus not as responsible for the failure.

[Soeroah]

Doesn't this contradict itself?

Seems stupid to give someone enough freedom to the point where they are basically unaware of your existence, merely influencing them in a subtle fashion to do what you want, then flip the script and punish them for being traitors once they fuck up.

Treason in my view implies that they "joined" a side and knew that they're acting against those interest, when Ner'zhul and Arthas worst crime was just failing.
For that treason angle to work, they must've been aware of the Jailer and said "nope, fuck it, i'm doing my own thing".

And saying that KT is the "most successful agent" is also a stretch, KT succeeded when Ner'zhul / Arthas succeeded and failed when they failed.
KT was on the winning side from pre WC3 to TFT, that's also where Ner'zhul successfully played the Legion and recruited Arthas into fold of the Scourge.

All of them failed once WoW hit the floor and the Scourge was defeated by the players, KT vanished from the players eye since he got wrecked the 2nd time in Naxx.
Unless we apply different standards because Kel'thuzad was technically below the LK in the Scourge hierarchy and thus not as responsible for the failure.

I think the last sentence is what matters. The Lich King projects were largely failures, but KT was successful in getting Zovaal a hold on the realm of life on Azeroth, so he would have been useful to keep in the back pocket - especially when he could use an agent in Maldraxxus.

And yeah, I suppose treason might be the wrong word, but Zovaal's not exactly the kindest tyrant. It doesn't seem too far out of character, IMO, for him to punish some unwitting soul who didn't play out the way he wanted, who was brought to the Maw anyway and who had no further use (other than, perhaps, being used to craft a sword of domination). The guy was spotlighted from day 1 as ruling the Maw through fear and torture, after all.

[Khaza-R]

The whole Lich King story went to shit in WotLK.

Ner'zhul being usurped by Arthas is the original sin of WoW lore.

[Jester Joe]

I think the last sentence is what matters. The Lich King projects were largely failures, but KT was successful in getting Zovaal a hold on the realm of life on Azeroth, so he would have been useful to keep in the back pocket - especially when he could use an agent in Maldraxxus.

And yeah, I suppose treason might be the wrong word, but Zovaal's not exactly the kindest tyrant. It doesn't seem too far out of character, IMO, for him to punish some unwitting soul who didn't play out the way he wanted, who was brought to the Maw anyway and who had no further use (other than, perhaps, being used to craft a sword of domination). The guy was spotlighted from day 1 as ruling the Maw through fear and torture, after all.

It's probably more like KT was serving Zovaal all along. It could be assumed he served his purpose well enough besides what was out of his own control.

"How fitting that we should face one another here, upon the precipice of Death's victory.
For too long I've had to disguise my true motives. Pretend to serve false masters. When all the while, it was I who helped architect Azeroth's end!
The hour has come to make you pay for the indignities I suffered at Naxxramas! Now, at long last, you will kneel before Kel'Thuzad!"


From the moment you enter his room in Sanctum of Domination.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kel...actics)#Quotes

[Houle]

The whole Lich King story went to shit in WotLK.

Ner'zhul being usurped by Arthas is the original sin of WoW lore.

thats...actually pretty true.
that and the whole "illidan randomly went mad so go kill him or something lmao" fiasco back in TBC (but at least that got retconned by now)

[angrywithmygod]

Wouldn't kel'thuzad being the original servant of jailer mean that his resurrection as a lich was on the jailers plan, hence the actual invasions of Silvermoon and everything that occured there be the jailers fault.

So why is Sylvanas angry with Arthas still when she find out about the jailer, or why would she even follow they guy who clearly orchestrated it all.

[Puxycat]

So why is Sylvanas angry with Arthas still when she find out about the jailer, or why would she even follow they guy who clearly orchestrated it all.

Yeah i never understood how anyone can blame arthas for the things he made. At this point it all comes clear he also was abused by the big bald guy.

[Tarba]

Wouldn't kel'thuzad being the original servant of jailer mean that his resurrection as a lich was on the jailers plan, hence the actual invasions of Silvermoon and everything that occured there be the jailers fault.

So why is Sylvanas angry with Arthas still when she find out about the jailer, or why would she even follow they guy who clearly orchestrated it all.

Because of the stupidity of the writers.
The last words of Arthas in war3 were that he was ready to sacrifice himself to save his people. Ten minutes after that he does not care about his people and only hear the lich king speaking throught frostmourne.

And suddenly in a random retarded book Arthas was somehow in control the whole time and has allways been evil deepdown.

Basically they say whatever they want whenever they want without caring about previous lore.
So a piece of lore is only valuable the moment it is said. Before or after it doesn't matter.

[Loreth88]

The whole Lich King story went to shit in WotLK.

Ner'zhul being usurped by Arthas is the original sin of WoW lore.

The original story wasn't that when Arthas took Ner'Zhul's armor, they weren't two separate people, but one. They united as the Lich King.