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  1. #21
    People need to stop comparing world first race shenanigans as balance.

    There isnt much problem with raids, apart from the fact that usually the 3-5 bosses of Mythic difficulty are easier than the AOTC boss, or the previous one also.

    Sepulcher might have been a bit harder but this was explained that it was two raids merged in one so it felt longer and had 2 "end" bosses in it, so comparing it to the previous raids/years is also wrong.

    As someone that does HC only for the last 8 years, what is problematic, is the scaling.

    Raid with 10-12 people, Ability X takes everyone to 40%, raid with 15 people, ability X takes everyone to 65%, ability X2 that comes right after might kill someone at 10man raid size, no one ever dies at 15 man raid size cause they were always much higher %.

    "Ability targets 3 people and they have to run out", at 10man, thats 30% of the raid and if it targets your highest DPS cause bad luck you start having DPS problems and then at 25 people "LOL WHO GIVES A FUCK, PEW PEW ITS STILL ONLY 3 PEOPLE"

    Thats literally the only problem raiding has, how much easier to irrelevant levels HC becomes cause the scaling is off, obviously Normal has this problem also.

    Cause the mechanic is made from Mythic and 20man and scaled down "damage" wise but not raid size.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-09-07 at 10:25 AM.

  2. #22
    the barrier to entry and time spent getting to boss/getting back after a wipe needs to be made much easier. Whether mythic needs to be easier is up for debate, but what is clear is another expansion of "business as usual" will be a disaster, raiding is a dying activity. Blizz needs to decide if they want to keep it a niche activity that a small part of the player base participate in, if so they need to not balance all end game content around it and provide reasonable alternatives outside of raiding to get the best gear (they should just make mythic drop cosmetic gear), or massively reduce the barrier to entry and likely the difficulty too of mythic raiding if they insist in making it the only way to get the best gear still.

    Personally I'd like to see mythic like how FFXIV treats ultimate, cosmetic only super challenging and only a few bosses. How about they have a full raid tier of heroic bosses, then just the last 2 or 3 as mythic only fights rewarding cosmetics for clearing. This would allow heroic raiding to become the norm dropping the best raid gear, and allow mythics raiders to tackle the hardest encounters, also if only a few bosses were mythic each tier blizz could properly balance and design the fights to be far more interesting than simply adding 10 new one shot mechanics and sliding up the dmg numbers.

  3. #23
    Last raid was too hard across all difficulties. Regardless, I think normal could be a bit easier, heroic difficulty is good, earlier mythic bosses should be harder (the 1st mythic boss should be a bit harder than the last heroic boss, that way AOTC guilds would be more content with not trying to dabble in mythic), and the last few mythic bosses should be easier (and Blizzard already implied that they will be).

  4. #24
    Epic!
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    I like content to be easy enough, that banter is possible. But not too easy where you lose focus. It’s a difficult line to which I think that last raid went too far over on the difficultly side. SOD, imo, was a fantastic balance, at least in a mythic environment.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Blizzard devs need to get it through their thick skull that throwing numbers at the problem isn't going to solve anything. Something can be challenging and become easy when done right, all this scaling and balancing is just crap when the issue is how they design the challenge to begin with.

    Big problem here too is how mandatory addons have become.

    Can't stand the "one player mistake fucks the entire raid" mechanics they've done.
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  6. #26
    Raids nowadays are WAYY too mechanic heavy. I shouldn't need 10+ icons and timers taking up space on my screen in order to complete an encounter. Fights should be tuned more based on DPS, HPS, and good tanking. SoD really put a bad taste in my mouth after the first three bosses.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    Raids nowadays are WAYY too mechanic heavy. I shouldn't need 10+ icons and timers taking up space on my screen in order to complete an encounter. Fights should be tuned more based on DPS, HPS, and good tanking. SoD really put a bad taste in my mouth after the first three bosses.
    That's my problem, i used to do LfR throughout the expansion, but the sheer number of mechanics going on at once are confusing to me (Even with add-ons, those just make any mechanic-tells more blaring), so i haven't done much raiding after Nathria, i'd like at least LfR to have mechanics removed, but make the ones that remain count, having a few things going on that matter is better than a whole bunch of things, except i can ignore half of them because they don't do much. (It's also better practice for normal-and-up raids)

  8. #28
    Raiding, being one of the main endgame activities and therefore most certainly not dying, is fine in difficulty to some degree. There are tweaks that should be made that have already been mentioned:
    - Fix the scaling. This one is very easy to do if they pay attention to all the mechanics. Yes this may mean that something that happens twice at 20 players may only happen once for 10 but that's what it is.
    - Rather than splitting the raid into wings, which sounds great at first but interferes to some degree with nonlinear progression, introduce more skips in the raid. Today we typically earn one skip after killing x boss a number of times but that's pretty far in the instance. Make another one earlier. That gives in-instance options with minimal effort. Possibly mix that in with an Ulduar-type portal system but in a thematic way.

    Beyond the scaling, the difficulty in Sepulcher was good. Bosses shouldn't be pushovers. Perhaps a rethinking though could be in order. Throughout the expansion the raids should get progressively more difficult in total as the heroes are getting closer to the end goal. This thematically would work well. Just don't have the first bar so low that complaints about it being faceroll abound. Sure there will be some but the adage about pleasing people comes to mind.

  9. #29
    If you think raiding in WoW... Is too hard, you should stick to LFR and Normal only. Raiding in WoW is one of the easiest MMOs out there, without question.

    If anything, Blizzard should make all of the raiders harder. Maybe tone mechanics down a tiny bit, a little bit less damage so things don't kill folks in one hit, and as a trade off require more DPS checks. So many folks are completely braindead about their class in wow, and go into a retail raid in 292 ilvl gear pulling 6k dps, and can't figure out why they can't clear heroic.

  10. #30
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Raids should be ball-bustingly challenging at every difficulty level so that only the truly worthy deserve to wear purples and enjoy the game. Everyone else should just quit the game because they're all bad and should be ashamed of themselves.

  11. #31
    definitely no
    if you are not good enough for your current level or dont want the hassle of it go for lower level, there is enough of them to accomodate people of all skill (or time available)
    if you are already on LFR and still see difficulty as an issue then you are beyond help and should just leave raiding as a whole
    Last edited by Lolites; 2022-09-07 at 05:21 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Cierah View Post
    Raiding, being one of the main endgame activities and therefore most certainly not dying, is fine in difficulty to some degree.
    I mean it is kinda dying out when you look at number of clears of mythic over the last few tiers. I know a large number of our players just dont have the time to commit permanently 2-3 evenings a week to a game just to clear content at a reasonable pace, which is why so many have quit mythic raiding completely, with heroic not offering good enough rewards so people just do m+. I feel like if they just make the raids a bit easier the spiral downwards is just going to continue into DF, they need to shake things up before all thats left is the 1% who still have the time to mythic raid

  13. #33
    Yeah, probably.

    Locking a huge amount of their development money and hours behind some cringe, weird e-chad "keep it hard for sweaty's sake" isn't really that great of a fiscal plan.

    I'd love to find out which Tigolfrasiabi left that relic from the past that they're still clinging to.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    If I took your question literally, I'd say no. LFR is already very easy it needs no nerf. The different difficulties are the answer to your question. I feel LFR > Normal is fine. Heroic gets more, 'you better pay attention and react quicker', and then Mythic is the top level of that type of growth.
    your comment indicates you don't know shit about the state of last raid xD

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baza View Post
    Last raid was too hard across all difficulties. Regardless, I think normal could be a bit easier, heroic difficulty is good, earlier mythic bosses should be harder (the 1st mythic boss should be a bit harder than the last heroic boss, that way AOTC guilds would be more content with not trying to dabble in mythic), and the last few mythic bosses should be easier (and Blizzard already implied that they will be).
    possibly the one person here who knows what's he's talking about, 70% of others have a weird attitude yet they didnt do hc

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I always enjoyed playing at the higher levels of wow though I noticed a lot of bosses are being released in arguably broken states then nerfed into being reasonably completable.

    I am not talking a massive tuning down across the board but something more like mop level difficulty. Rather then slowly nerfing down encounters.
    I didn't raid much during mop. I skipped a lot of the expac. The whole leggo thing killed it for me as when I came back... yeah. I was far behind and couldn't be bothered trying to catch up over 1 piece of gear.

    On topic:
    I think, normal is pretty barebones and I think since flex raiding became a thing and has been in a good spot. I think heroic could be made a tad bit more difficult, I skipped all of SL so IDK how sepulcher was, I've heard a lot of complaining though... but I personally don't touch mythic, I've never bothered with it due to group size, so I can't say i have much of an opinion on it. Maybe make it easier to allow more people to get into it? But then the hardcore feel devalued. I think they need something to hold over others heads or it isn't worth it for them to do it lol.

  16. #36
    Raids should definitely become les mechanically complex. Some bosses like Halondrus and Painsmith feels like they could have been serviceable Mythic bosses using just the HC mechanics.

    Mechanical bloat has almost gotten out of control in some cases. And this serves as a serious barrier to entry for some players whose reaction time might be lower, internet isn't perfect, or who generally struggles with remembering a complex set of instructions.
    For some casual guilds you really end up having no solution but have someone dedicated to calling out mechanics, which is the kind of teamwork that used to be reserved for the best Mythic WF teams.

    I imagine that some of this might be down to Blizzard feeling compelled to "outsmart" players who watch guides, or playtest on the PTR.
    Hopefully Blizzard will learn from the last bosses of Sepulcher that strict playtesting isn't always necessary, especially if the bosses are tuned on the lower end.


    Personally i am also not entirely sure what purpose the HC difficulty serves in the grand scheme. It's harder than NM, enough so it excludes many casual guilds, but also not so difficult that the best have any trouble with them.
    Not sure what the solution to this would be though. Removing a whole difficulty seems like a very extreme option.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #37
    Stop putting so much individual responsibility where failure results in a wipe in lower difficulties.

    Its fine on Mythic when all players are expected to have a brain and know what to do in every situation but on Normal and Heroic if someone does something wrong they should die, and if to many do something wrong and die the encounter is no longer doable. Not 'johnny stood in the wrong place so the entire raid exploded'.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #38
    Yes, of course, but that would require that Blizzard stops catering to the 1%, and that's a no-no.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Raids should definitely become les mechanically complex. Some bosses like Halondrus and Painsmith feels like they could have been serviceable Mythic bosses using just the HC mechanics.

    Mechanical bloat has almost gotten out of control in some cases. And this serves as a serious barrier to entry for some players whose reaction time might be lower, internet isn't perfect, or who generally struggles with remembering a complex set of instructions.
    For some casual guilds you really end up having no solution but have someone dedicated to calling out mechanics, which is the kind of teamwork that used to be reserved for the best Mythic WF teams.

    I imagine that some of this might be down to Blizzard feeling compelled to "outsmart" players who watch guides, or playtest on the PTR.
    Hopefully Blizzard will learn from the last bosses of Sepulcher that strict playtesting isn't always necessary, especially if the bosses are tuned on the lower end.


    Personally i am also not entirely sure what purpose the HC difficulty serves in the grand scheme. It's harder than NM, enough so it excludes many casual guilds, but also not so difficult that the best have any trouble with them.
    Not sure what the solution to this would be though. Removing a whole difficulty seems like a very extreme option.
    This, it was kinda shocking coming back for SL after skipping most of BFA to see just how long the list of abilities for each boss even on normal difficulty was when reading up on them.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  20. #40
    Mythic should remain a big challenge at current difficulty with gradual nerfs to give more people access.

    However, from lfr to heroic, my experience is the raids have got too technical with too much of a learning curve where the only way to learn is multiple wipes. Id make lfr another raid level without the auto queueing as an easy entrance as it was originally intended. And Id adjust downwards normal difficulty. Where heroic is the endgame for someone it could do with a downwards adjustment, but where it is a training level for mythic then it could stay the same - not sure how you cater for this.

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