Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
8
9
LastLast
  1. #121
    I want single player raiding! Solo Raids, go.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The number of classes is completely irrelevant.
    What? I'm genuinely curious to hear your logic on this one. 10 spots and 14 classe doesn't pose a problem to you?
    Or do you want every class to be identical? Every class gets hero, a battle ress, a gateway, same raid buffs etc?

    That's the most stupid thing i've heard in a long time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Except they weren't significantly worse at all. This is just hating on the past so you can feel a sense of supremacy of the present. I see this fallacy constantly and it's just bullshit. Athletes from the first Olympics wouldn't compete against the current day (for the most part), but they are still easily in the top 5% of humanity. The way this guy likes to consistently phrase this is that the people pushing world firsts in ICC may as well be average players by todays standards. It's just not true.

    I would actually argue that modern players are potentially worse because of things like kill video's and guides. We used to have to figure these things out on our own. I rate adaptability as one of the highest skills in a players arsenal and it's only more recently that I've noticed a more significant version of the player base who are reliant on guides telling them what to do rather than figuring it out themselves. I can't even count how many groups I've seen brick a key for instance because they want to try the MDI strat or play a meta class but don't have the skills to actually make it work. Instead of trying to do something that actually fits their skillset and works for them, they come to the forums complaining that the game sucks because they can't do what the guide says and are too lazy to figure it out themselves.
    You have not significantly improved your own skill over the past decade or two??
    I certainly have. And if you look at top athletes, say running for example, athletes from 20 years ago are significantly slower.
    I don't disagree they're still top 5% of humanity but I dont know why you think it matters, they're still worse? Now apply the same logic across the board for all skill levels and remember there was no information overload as there currently is. You had like fatboss guides and that was it. I think its fair to say the player base as a whole was worse. Doesn't mean i think everyone was shit just because off it?

    Those players you describe existed just as much back then as they do now though?

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    I believe so. We play video games for entertainment, not to suffer and wipe for hours due to a lack of new content that keeps us subscribed. It must be challenging enough to be pleasant and not tiresome.
    That's subjective, though. What you consider tiresome, others might consider rewarding (see: dark souls games). What I really dislike, though, are raid wipe mechanics that need to be handled by one person and are also random targeted.

    Anything that requires perfect play from 100% of your team to win or you lose is monotonous. I don't have time to wait for that one run where all 25 people don't make a single mistake for a whole fight length.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2022-09-13 at 07:09 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The number of classes is completely irrelevant.
    ...it's important to consider raid representation in a game with completely 38 unique class/spec combinations. We already have people bitching constantly about the "same comp" in MDI/TGP or in general feeling like certain classes' kits simply are not compatible with certain content, constraining this further by capping raid size at 10 players would be disastrous unless Blizzard were to homogenize classes. Considering they're on record saying they want to do the opposite of this, I'd say a world where raids are capped at 10 players is not one we'll be realizing any time soon.

  5. #125
    There should be a "Super Mythic" difficulty that shares a lockout with Mythic, and is just a toggle somewhere. The "Super Mythic" difficulty can be for the World First guild races that want that extra spice to their challenge. This difficulty would be tuned to a razor's edge, and wouldn't really confer any rewards except for prestige for those who clear it. This would basically be what pre-nerf SFO was. "Super Mythic" will never get any nerfs (unless something was mathematically impossible).

    Mythic is then just what 95% of mythic raiders would play, and would be on par with a post-nerf SFO. This will get any nerfs that were needed.

    This makes Mythic, and it's gear, accessible to organized groups that have the skill, but lets those who want to above and beyond do so. Since no rewards are linked to it, it would only exist for bragging rights and for maybe a leaderboard.

    I think it would be an interesting experiment and would be worthwhile for at least one raid tier to see how well it's received by the very best of the best?

  6. #126
    Pandaren Monk Cloudmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Celestial Planetarium
    Posts
    1,988
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    That's subjective, though. What you consider tiresome, others might consider rewarding (see: dark souls games). What I really dislike, though, are raid wipe mechanics that need to be handled by one person and are also random targeted.

    Anything that requires perfect play from 100% of your team to win or you lose is monotonous. I don't have time to wait for that one run where all 25 people don't make a single mistake for a whole fight length.
    That’s true and let’s say if someone your team is weaker somehow or perhaps it can be you. Shit happens right? Then you gonna get all this toxic shit that actually demotivates you to play anymore. Not to mention that some fights are so retarded let’s say a Mekkatorque boss. The moment with the colors where you actually need an external add on to deal with this shit. It’s so annoying. I remember being kicked out from the guild because of that shit.

    I’m sorry for the whiny post but I’m just pissed off today because I have this dental bracers and the dentist put some metal shit in there and it so fucking hurts. Haha, I’m sitting here and crying.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2022-09-13 at 07:26 PM.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    You have not significantly improved your own skill over the past decade or two??
    I certainly have. And if you look at top athletes, say running for example, athletes from 20 years ago are significantly slower.
    I don't disagree they're still top 5% of humanity but I dont know why you think it matters, they're still worse? Now apply the same logic across the board for all skill levels and remember there was no information overload as there currently is. You had like fatboss guides and that was it. I think its fair to say the player base as a whole was worse. Doesn't mean i think everyone was shit just because off it?

    Those players you describe existed just as much back then as they do now though?
    Honestly I've probably gotten worse because I don't raid at the highest level for 20+ hours a week like I used to. Proportionately it's probably pretty similar and I think at best the top edge of the bell curve may have moved up a couple points but the bottom edge has stayed the same. I was one of the top 10 resto shaman in the world, now I sit around the top 1000 in the world on my monk and warlock, this fits with going from the top 1% to still being in the top 5%. It's not a negligible change but it's nowhere near as drastic as what others claim. I could even probably hit the top 500 without much issue if I dropped my guild and found people more push minded, but I take the game a lot more casually now and enjoy the people I play with.

    This is very different from what Gorsameth goes around saying which implies that the top 1% of players a decade ago are basically at the skill level of the average player now. This is just a huge misunderstanding of the "skill" gains over time and what they represent. I mean, to meme it a little bit, it's like trying to say Battletoads is an easy game now because people have gotten a lot better at playing games in the past 30 years. I guarantee Battletoads is still a brutally hard NES game that will likely send any modern gamer into a rage. Dark Souls is 14 years old and is still widely considered a brutally difficult game by modern standards.

    I generally find arguments about how easy something was in the past just to be ego stroking the modern day, pretending we are so much better than those that came before us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    That’s true and let’s say if someone your team is weaker somehow or perhaps it can be you. Shit happens right? Then you gonna get all this toxic shit that actually demotivates you to play anymore. Not to mention that some fights are so retarded let’s say a Mekkatorque boss. The moment with the colors where you actually need an external add on to deal with this shit. It’s so annoying. I remember being kicked out from the guild because of that shit.
    Need is a strong word. One of these days I want to make a guild that runs without add-ons just to prove people like you wrong, just like the guild that was clearing raids in blue quality gear in Wrath was proving people wrong that you need the best gear to beat the raids. I'm not a huge fan of those color mechanics myself, but I also ran without DBM for a long time when people were claiming you NEEDED DBM to beat bosses. I still have a lot of their options and sound queues disabled because I don't need an air horn blowing in my headset to know a mechanic is going off and just find it distracting.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    You were saying this bullshit in another thread. Why do people like you want to pretend that no one knew how to play the game back in Wrath? Like what has you so fucking butt hurt that you feel the need to roam these forums and comment about how bad people used to be. This idea that people who played games a decade ago were all massive shitters is just fucking absurd. You're probably just the type of person who would go to an art museum and bitch and moan about how modern day digital art is SO MUCH BETTER than Picasso and Rembrandt aren't you?
    I was there for Firefighter and Yogg 0 (tho the latter well after the fact). Not competing for world firsts by any stretch but server first.

    Mythic fights now are more complex and less forgiving/more tightly tuned then they used to be, from what I have seen and experienced.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  9. #129
    Pandaren Monk Cloudmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Celestial Planetarium
    Posts
    1,988
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Need is a strong word. One of these days I want to make a guild that runs without add-ons just to prove people like you wrong, just like the guild that was clearing raids in blue quality gear in Wrath was proving people wrong that you need the best gear to beat the raids. I'm not a huge fan of those color mechanics myself, but I also ran without DBM for a long time when people were claiming you NEEDED DBM to beat bosses. I still have a lot of their options and sound queues disabled because I don't need an air horn blowing in my headset to know a mechanic is going off and just find it distracting.
    That’s the point. When everyone in the guild has the add-ons you are required to get them as well and follow the strategy they want you to do, even though you know that it sucks.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    That’s the point. When everyone in the guild has the add-ons you are required to get them as well and follow the strategy they want you to do, even though you know that it sucks.
    I mean, that is just part of doing any group activity. You agree to the rules of the group or you find a different group. They wouldn't let you use Deep Blue in a chess tournament but you might be able to at home. It doesn't matter if letting an AI decide your moves is going to lead to a better outcome for you. I've been drawn into dumb MDI strats by guild members before because I'm open to trying new things and want to facilitate efficient play. I ended up finally getting DBM in like ToC or something because of the group necessity, but I also have the option in the add-on to turn off the personal warnings I find distracting or don't need to know for my role.

    I'm not really sure what your point is besides that you don't want to do things that may help your group function better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I was there for Firefighter and Yogg 0 (tho the latter well after the fact). Not competing for world firsts by any stretch but server first.

    Mythic fights now are more complex and less forgiving/more tightly tuned then they used to be, from what I have seen and experienced.
    As someone who was pushing for high ranks at the time (Best being world 5th Ignis) I disagree. It's mostly just tuned differently to accommodate more fast paced play, but that doesn't have a huge influence on the averages. If we look at running for instance, people in the 1860's were running a 4:30 mile, now that doesn't even place in the top 2000 runners. The average person isn't running anywhere close to even a 5 minute mile though, in fact, I would assume even without finding data on it that the average times for running a mile among the populace has gone down rather than up despite having far better technology and information on how to become a good runner.

    Are fights more complicated now? Probably. Less forgiving? Maybe depending on the fight. Does this mean that we should nerf the distance of the metaphorical mile run but still count them as a full mile so we can be more inclusive? I personally disagree, but I feel like I'm more ok with failure than the average person anymore.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I mean, that is just part of doing any group activity. You agree to the rules of the group or you find a different group. They wouldn't let you use Deep Blue in a chess tournament but you might be able to at home. It doesn't matter if letting an AI decide your moves is going to lead to a better outcome for you. I've been drawn into dumb MDI strats by guild members before because I'm open to trying new things and want to facilitate efficient play. I ended up finally getting DBM in like ToC or something because of the group necessity, but I also have the option in the add-on to turn off the personal warnings I find distracting or don't need to know for my role.

    I'm not really sure what your point is besides that you don't want to do things that may help your group function better.



    As someone who was pushing for high ranks at the time (Best being world 5th Ignis) I disagree. It's mostly just tuned differently to accommodate more fast paced play, but that doesn't have a huge influence on the averages. If we look at running for instance, people in the 1860's were running a 4:30 mile, now that doesn't even place in the top 2000 runners. The average person isn't running anywhere close to even a 5 minute mile though, in fact, I would assume even without finding data on it that the average times for running a mile among the populace has gone down rather than up despite having far better technology and information on how to become a good runner.

    Are fights more complicated now? Probably. Less forgiving? Maybe depending on the fight. Does this mean that we should nerf the distance of the metaphorical mile run but still count them as a full mile so we can be more inclusive? I personally disagree, but I feel like I'm more ok with failure than the average person anymore.
    If it stays the way it is currently you will have massive problems filling raids and then justify the expenditures to raiding. I expect the game to be modernized and less like some lame ass dungeons and dragons session ( my brother and i will still leave him messages when we call making fun of the acting they did ). Myself raiding lost its luster but in order to get it back or push me more into that direction it has to become as pick up and play as pugging mythic plus has become otherwise what is the point? I was already muting half of the people on discord and i never ran a key or interacted with them outside of the raid ( I tank by the way ). Just because i wear my deaths demise title does not mean i want the game to be like that or as hard or time consuming as that.

  12. #132
    Pandaren Monk Cloudmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Celestial Planetarium
    Posts
    1,988
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post

    I'm not really sure what your point is besides that you don't want to do things that may help your group function better.
    Ahh, so you are one of those who just wish to sound clever. You went off on the few points where I agreed with you, only to find out that I was wrong.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Are fights more complicated now? Probably. Less forgiving? Maybe depending on the fight. Does this mean that we should nerf the distance of the metaphorical mile run but still count them as a full mile so we can be more inclusive? I personally disagree, but I feel like I'm more ok with failure than the average person anymore.
    To keep to your analogy, what I feel the problem might be is that as the top started running faster Blizzard kept moving the finish backwards little by little.
    I don't think we're running just a mile anymore.

    And I don't just mean from WotLK to now. we have the difficulty split for a reason to separate the field and this let Blizzard push the difficulty, but even just within Mythic as it exists. And, imo, even more so in Normal and Heroic.

    The beautiful thing about a mile is that its always a mile. Weather and terrain effect the difficulty but those are easily measurable. Keeping Mythic Mythic (and Heroic Heroic ect) is a lot less quantifiable. Blizzard has gotten it wrong in both directions throughout the years but in SL's I certainly feel Blizzard has overshot the mark.
    That doesn't mean Mythic should be easy, but I question if anyone can look at Sepulcher and say with a strait face that they got it right.

    And the amount of fights on Heroic and even Normal where a mistake from a random player leads to a wipe is much higher then it the past it feels like. Which is particularly devastating for those 'lower' tier guilds who often carry weaker players and were able to do so for years. And those guilds now suffer or have to kick members they had for years because the more 'casual' difficulties can no longer afford those mistakes.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    If it stays the way it is currently you will have massive problems filling raids and then justify the expenditures to raiding. I expect the game to be modernized and less like some lame ass dungeons and dragons session ( my brother and i will still leave him messages when we call making fun of the acting they did ). Myself raiding lost its luster but in order to get it back or push me more into that direction it has to become as pick up and play as pugging mythic plus has become otherwise what is the point? I was already muting half of the people on discord and i never ran a key or interacted with them outside of the raid ( I tank by the way ). Just because i wear my deaths demise title does not mean i want the game to be like that or as hard or time consuming as that.
    You sound like a joy to play games with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Ahh, so you are one of those who just wish to sound clever. You went off on the few points where I agreed with you, only to find out that I was wrong.
    I think we agree on a lot but disagree on the conclusions. I wouldn't defy the raid lead and get booted from a guild just because I didn't want to use (or didn't feel I needed) a certain addon. That's where the joy of turning off personal warnings comes in, so I can meet the raid where they want to be but also have my UI display what I want it to. I mean, I'm the GM with far more experience than most of my guildies, but I still cede raid instructions to my trusted raid leader at least until we hit a snag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    To keep to your analogy, what I feel the problem might be is that as the top started running faster Blizzard kept moving the finish backwards little by little.
    I don't think we're running just a mile anymore.

    And I don't just mean from WotLK to now. we have the difficulty split for a reason to separate the field and this let Blizzard push the difficulty, but even just within Mythic as it exists. And, imo, even more so in Normal and Heroic.

    The beautiful thing about a mile is that its always a mile. Weather and terrain effect the difficulty but those are easily measurable. Keeping Mythic Mythic (and Heroic Heroic ect) is a lot less quantifiable. Blizzard has gotten it wrong in both directions throughout the years but in SL's I certainly feel Blizzard has overshot the mark.
    That doesn't mean Mythic should be easy, but I question if anyone can look at Sepulcher and say with a strait face that they got it right.

    And the amount of fights on Heroic and even Normal where a mistake from a random player leads to a wipe is much higher then it the past it feels like. Which is particularly devastating for those 'lower' tier guilds who often carry weaker players and were able to do so for years. And those guilds now suffer or have to kick members they had for years because the more 'casual' difficulties can no longer afford those mistakes.
    I think SOFO had a lot of issues for sure, mostly with flex raiding and primarily on heroic difficulty. I think a mile is still roughly a mile on average, maybe adjusted a little bit for new abilities in a faster paced atmosphere, otherwise we would be "running a mile" but doing it on roller blades. The other difficulties are essentially just different leagues at this point i.e: LFR being grade school, Normal being high school, Heroic being college level, and Mythic being Professional.

    Having these different leagues seems like a better solution than what is implied by some of the things you've stated, which essentially seems to be that more people should be able to enter the pro leagues by reducing the challenge. I just don't see that as necessary now that we have multiple options for difficulty. Heroic basically replaced the Ulduar hard modes and raised this feeling in people that not completing that difficulty is the same as not completing the raid. There are plenty of players who could barely complete the raid even if you reduced a raid to single mechanic fights with obvious tells.

    As far as the one fuck-up wiping the raid, actually sounds fine on mythic to me. Having that on heroic was a bit rough, but I also don't want to baby-proof the raiding scene so that mediocre players can carry even worse players through raids on whatever difficulty they feel like. Maybe it's just my generation of gaming where your only option was to get better or never complete a game, but I enjoy the journey more than the loot at the end. Noticing my guild no longer struggling with mechanics that used to wipe us is incredibly satisfying as a GM of a raiding guild. Less satisfying is seeing those mechanics get nerfed by 90% or completely removed, which seems to incentivize people not caring as much and putting more strain on the rest of the raid.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    ...it's important to consider raid representation in a game with completely 38 unique class/spec combinations. We already have people bitching constantly about the "same comp" in MDI/TGP or in general feeling like certain classes' kits simply are not compatible with certain content, constraining this further by capping raid size at 10 players would be disastrous unless Blizzard were to homogenize classes. Considering they're on record saying they want to do the opposite of this, I'd say a world where raids are capped at 10 players is not one we'll be realizing any time soon.
    I could not possibly care less about any of the esports shit. It has nothing to do with the regular people playing the game. Tuning the game for MDI rather than the hundreds of thousands of other people playing the game is a ridiculous notion on its face.

    Everything you are describing is a problem with how Blizzard designs content, not a problem with raid sizes. Let's just skip the whole thing and I'll summarize the rest of the conversation because it always goes exactly the same way:

    Me: "There are tons of other similar games that have solved these problems that you are describing"
    You: "WOW IS A SPECIAL UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE AND NO PRINCIPLES OF GAME DESIGN APPLY TO IT! IT CANT LEARN ANYTHING FROM ANYONE! HAVE YOU SEEN HOW HARD MYTHIC JAILER WAS? I HAVENT PLAYED THESE OTHER GAMES BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THE PRECIOUS UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE THAT IS WOW IS EXEMPT FROM ALL RULES OF LOGIC. CAUSE AND EFFECT HAVE NO PLACE HERE BECAUSE OF HOW UNIQUE AND SPECIAL WOW IS. HAVE YOU SEEN HOW HARD MYTHIC SYLVANAS WAS? HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT PROBLEMS EASILY SOLVED IN OTHER GAMES COULD POSSIBLY BE SOLVED SIMILARLY IN WOW! MYTHIC DENATHRIUS WAS VERY HARD!"
    Me: "Good talk."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    What? I'm genuinely curious to hear your logic on this one. 10 spots and 14 classe doesn't pose a problem to you?
    Or do you want every class to be identical? Every class gets hero, a battle ress, a gateway, same raid buffs etc?
    Or you just don't tune the content to require those class-unique features. This problem is solved a lot easier than you guys think it is. Having unique class mechanics does not obligate Blizzard to design content that requires those mechanics. They manage to design dungeons that don't require them. We don't even need to get into all the other games that have similar designs yet don't have this problem.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I always enjoyed playing at the higher levels of wow though I noticed a lot of bosses are being released in arguably broken states then nerfed into being reasonably completable.

    I am not talking a massive tuning down across the board but something more like mop level difficulty. Rather then slowly nerfing down encounters.
    You do realize MoP had early raid bosses that were guild breakers right??

    Currently raid boss difficulty is about the same

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    What is fun? What makes a fun game? My grandma seems to absolutely love playing Farmville but I think it's incredibly not fun and trashy. Fun is a subjective term, and it's not my fault if you can't formulate a response to any legitimate criticism.

    To be transparent, I also don't think LFR is fun, but I weigh my opinion on that the same as yours. Zero. I enjoy being pushed to the limits of my skill so it makes no sense to weigh my opinion on how fun the games easiest mode is with any merit.
    Criticizing the idea of fun as an important part of game design is not a "legitimate criticism". It is a demonstration of values so insanely far removed from anything I care about that it makes conversation useless. If you walked into a design meeting and said that, everyone would laugh you out of the room. "Is this fun" is very nearly the only thing we would talk about in design meetings. It's the only priority.

    You just aren't a person interested in any kind of discussion. You are interesting in screeching belittlements and insults while pretending to be the arbiter of logic. No thanks. I'll talk to you when you learn how to talk to people, and you can start by not saying laughable shit like "Bro, like, what even IS fun broooooooo" while acting like you have the greatest insights this forum has ever seen.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #138
    I understand that with any group of people you generally only gravitate towards some not all. Its easier to just remove the annoying bits of playing with a group of people then deal with it instead. I would also not really communicate much with folks either unless i have to, i am not a leader and i do not intend to step on any toes etc. I also think its good to be done, to put an end date on an activity and WoW would gain from it because lets face it, never once has it been a living world. WoW has always been a theme park let us off the ride after a period of time.

  19. #139
    while not high-tier i was a cutting edge raider once when it was still heroic. now the last time i played was early shadowlands since i couldn't stand garbage content and treatment anymore, but i've noticed that since mop, every raid tier has been getting harder and harder on all but LFR difficulty (though lfr did start joining the trend around late legion/early bfa). i used to love doing what would now be mythic difficulty for the challenge of testing myself. it was one of the reasons i love the brawlers guild. but mythic these days seems more like i would be banging my head on a brick wall, reinforced with steel, then covered in more brick to hide the steel.

    raiding is definitely tuned way too high and needs to be brought back down. normal was more for laid back, casual guilds and even that difficulty is getting one shot, group wipe mechanics.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    while not high-tier i was a cutting edge raider once when it was still heroic. now the last time i played was early shadowlands since i couldn't stand garbage content and treatment anymore, but i've noticed that since mop, every raid tier has been getting harder and harder on all but LFR difficulty (though lfr did start joining the trend around late legion/early bfa). i used to love doing what would now be mythic difficulty for the challenge of testing myself. it was one of the reasons i love the brawlers guild. but mythic these days seems more like i would be banging my head on a brick wall, reinforced with steel, then covered in more brick to hide the steel.

    raiding is definitely tuned way too high and needs to be brought back down. normal was more for laid back, casual guilds and even that difficulty is getting one shot, group wipe mechanics.
    how are you measuring this difficulty cause I raid in a 100-150 US guild(raided here since MoP) and the raids are not consistently getting harder atleast by pull counts. Throne and SoO were much harder than EN or Helya or Guldan, then KJ was harder and argus/ghuun were easier again. Jaina and Azshara were SUPER hard and N'zoth was middle of the pack. So Im sorry but big disagree

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •