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  1. #101
    Man, I wish layering was the only problem the game had.

  2. #102
    I would argue wow needs layering not servers. It would be a massive project but if you made it so you logged into one character then picked a server to appear in online it would solve the dead realm issue instantly.

    Would be absurdly difficult to do but absolutely better then a server system.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo94 View Post
    Blizzard def don't have it set up correctly though, as I said, you shouldn't be in different layers when you're in a low population area. I assume they're just splitting the player base into X layers regardless of where they are in the world which is obviously flawed. Perhaps in terms of their tech they're forced to do that, but if that's the case its pretty flawed. Not sure how the WoW engine works so cant really comment on that.
    There's two different mechanisms they use to split players up, with one method used on Classic, and one used on Retail.

    Classic, Layering: Layers are decided realm-wide, so if you're placed in to a layer, you stay on that layer no matter where you go in the world. Not sure exactly when the layer is decided, but the goal is that if you see players, you should continue to see those same players throughout your play session, regardless of which zone you go in to.

    Retail, Sharding: Shards are decided on a Zone by Zone basis, so if you're in a zone, and see a player, you might cross a zone boundary and no longer be able to see that player, as you might be placed in different shards. Shards are also cross-realm, with the idea that you can basically be on any realm and still see a healthy number of players in the world, regardless of the health of your particular realm.

    With the system used in Classic, it's relatively common on the smaller servers for you and your friend to be in different layers, even though the zone is dead, because there might be hordes of people in player hubs, near raid/dungeon entrances etc, which have forced the layers to exist, even though those players aren't near you specifically.

    On Retail this shouldn't happen, though it does sometimes due to bugs, and it's vanishingly rare in my experience. It used to be more common.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    OMG can I have Layering during my work commute? Pleaase?!?!!
    Imagine if that was an option... do you think people like the OP would be like, nah, put me in the middle of rush hour LA with 3 million other people so I can be "immersed" in the world?

  5. #105
    The Lightbringer Lora's Avatar
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    nah thats a fucking bad take. layering is essential in ensuring server stability with a growing playerbase. you cant fit a million people in some tiny shit hut and expect it to not collapse. im glad layering is here because I remember the days without it and it was fucking dog shit back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uggorthaholy View Post
    Thanks but no thanks, Lora, for making me question everything in existence forever.

  6. #106
    pretty sure this is just a troll,layering is a 100% must have tech solution for games with a large ammount of people,you didnt have this issue in vanila because servers had like 2k or something capacity,also the devs said they would have done A LOT of the stuff they did much later from day 1 of the tech was there to allow it

    also even if the game could handle 10k players in the same spot with zero issues,it would still lead to a deplorable player experience trying to kill one unique mob,and im gonna go on a crazy limb here and assume you are also the kind of smart player that HATES the act that they added multiple player mob tagging

    idk,i think you should admit to yourself that mmo's arent your type of game
    Last edited by deenman; 2022-09-16 at 01:25 AM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Why would they be dead? 2500 concurrent characters felt pretty God damn alive back in 2005, why would it feel less alive today with 2500 concurrent characters?
    Those 2500 players during peak would dwindle to handfuls during content droughts. You'd have dozens of completely dead servers and Blizzard would be forced to aggressively merge, then re-split servers constantly with patch cycles. It would be an absolutely fucking awful experience for most of the playerbase, one which would undoubtedly result in many players simply choosing not to play the game at all... but hey, at least you and the five other players who share your minority opinion get your "authentic" 2005 experience, I guess.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    pretty sure this is just a troll,layering is a 100% must have tech solution for games with a large ammount of people,you didnt have this issue in vanila because servers had like 2k or something capacity,also the devs said they would have done A LOT of the stuff they did much later from day 1 of the tech was there to allow it
    It was controversial when they first announced it; it's just weird that years after that whole fiasco has been equivocally settled and widely agreed to be necessary that we still have purists who actively want a worse experience in Classic because that's, like, the #NoChanges mantra, bro.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It was controversial when they first announced it; it's just weird that years after that whole fiasco has been equivocally settled and widely agreed to be necessary that we still have purists who actively want a worse experience in Classic because that's, like, the #NoChanges mantra, bro.
    im gonna make the crazy assumption that these same people also hate the fact that they added multiple people being able to mob tag,even if the servers could handle 10k people in one place,all of them trying to kill ONE unique mob would surely be a very fun experience /s

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    im gonna make the crazy assumption that these same people also hate the fact that they added multiple people being able to mob tag,even if the servers could handle 10k people in one place,all of them trying to kill ONE unique mob would surely be a very fun experience /s
    I mean, that's pretty much the exact situation which caused Blizzard to introduce layering in the first place. Layering isn't perfect but it's more in-line with the ethos of Classic than sharding and it's a helluva lot better than dozens of completely dead/dying realms 2-3 months post release.

  10. #110
    what ruined wow was wasn't layering it was people being able to turn of pvp on pvp servers

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by imoncrack View Post
    what ruined wow was wasn't layering it was people being able to turn of pvp on pvp servers
    Nah, that was one of the best changes they ever made, it allowed people who hated PvP to still be able to play with their friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  12. #112
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
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    Which server is layered so much? I wanna move there
    I'm playing LK on a fresh server and it's still almost unplayable due to the amount of players / shitty mob repop rate. Killing Bellygrub took about 30 minutes and there are several quests (for example Syndicate Assassins in Southshore) that I just had to give up on because every single time all the mobs are camped to complete extinction.
    I don't want to spend my time looking and fighting for mob spawns, this is totally ridicolous.
    Last edited by Zka; 2022-09-16 at 05:21 AM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Those 2500 players during peak would dwindle to handfuls during content droughts. You'd have dozens of completely dead servers and Blizzard would be forced to aggressively merge, then re-split servers constantly with patch cycles. It would be an absolutely fucking awful experience for most of the playerbase, one which would undoubtedly result in many players simply choosing not to play the game at all... but hey, at least you and the five other players who share your minority opinion get your "authentic" 2005 experience, I guess.
    Again, this wasn't a problem originally, why is it suddenly a problem today?

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Again, this wasn't a problem originally, why is it suddenly a problem today?
    What do you mean it wasn't a problem?
    You think crz and sharding were added to retail just because?
    They were the response to population problems, which are much more significant in classic because the playerbase is much more unstable.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    What do you mean it wasn't a problem?
    You think crz and sharding were added to retail just because?
    They were the response to population problems, which are much more significant in classic because the playerbase is much more unstable.
    "My insignificant experience on the matter because i started late or leveled slowly or whatever other else dictates that i am correct and since i never experienced it, it must not exist"

    That poster is completely gone, or just a troll really, i wouldnt take him seriously.

    Did the 2 hours DK leveling for the mount, even the fact i had to wait something like 10 minutes and redo it 5 times cause of the RP, for the part where you meet your race and it tells you not to become evil because it got tagged faster by the others, and i expect the poor bastards after me had it even worse.

    Yeah, amazing experience, PTSD literally and made me re-hate any Classic version with a passion, all anew.

  16. #116
    The world and tech does not allow it. Play a different game.

  17. #117
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Red face

    deenman
    im gonna make the crazy assumption that these same people also hate the fact that they added multiple people being able to mob tag,even if the servers could handle 10k people in one place,all of them trying to kill ONE unique mob would surely be a very fun experience /s
    Of course we are

    ...may be only with just one small caveat:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    - loot is only "one for all", but advantage between groups/players depends on damage percentage;
    - system of rewards(kill count) depends on percentage of damage/participation by group/player;
    ...but, again, see "because problems in servers/world organisation": otherwise everything would work, they themselves created problem and themselves came up with a crutch for it, otherwise there would be no need for any (same as PL).

    ps. Remember chain~post of that time from forum about layers (and I'm too lazy to look for where they promised that it was only for the start, but like most people, including me, predicted - "evil breeds evil" - that they'll ended up there forever).

    Quote of justice:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    And that's why "let in" people in portions will be in this sense (in long run, in the sense of filling servers) much healthier than shards, that will “encourage” (but actually allow impatient ones) choice of already populated servers, which can ultimately lead to uneven of servers' filling and inevitability of their merging. Shards will eventually beget even more demand for shards (such situation will arise that "without them it becomes impossible to live, even after launching"; in fact, this way it happened on live with all "newfangled bells and whistles").
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-09-17 at 04:56 AM.
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    There's two different mechanisms they use to split players up, with one method used on Classic, and one used on Retail.

    Classic, Layering: Layers are decided realm-wide, so if you're placed in to a layer, you stay on that layer no matter where you go in the world. Not sure exactly when the layer is decided, but the goal is that if you see players, you should continue to see those same players throughout your play session, regardless of which zone you go in to.

    Retail, Sharding: Shards are decided on a Zone by Zone basis, so if you're in a zone, and see a player, you might cross a zone boundary and no longer be able to see that player, as you might be placed in different shards. Shards are also cross-realm, with the idea that you can basically be on any realm and still see a healthy number of players in the world, regardless of the health of your particular realm.

    With the system used in Classic, it's relatively common on the smaller servers for you and your friend to be in different layers, even though the zone is dead, because there might be hordes of people in player hubs, near raid/dungeon entrances etc, which have forced the layers to exist, even though those players aren't near you specifically.

    On Retail this shouldn't happen, though it does sometimes due to bugs, and it's vanishingly rare in my experience. It used to be more common.
    Right thank you for clarifying. I did know this in the past but im not up to date on WoW so just couldnt remember. Classic layering is clearly just trash, you need zone by zone shards quite clearly.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Again, this wasn't a problem originally, why is it suddenly a problem today?
    Pretending the audience for Classic in 2005 is the same as the audience in 2022 is one of the single most myopic takes you can have. There are so many mitigating factors are play that I'd be here for hours if I tried to list them all (the least of which being the fact that people simply play the game for entirely different reasons these days). For Classic, layering is the better option.

  20. #120
    Warchief Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Layering in my opinion does NOT belong inside a MMORPG. It's already in the name: Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
    The problem is that without layering there are may inconveniences that MOST players don't want to deal with.

    Technical limitations aside (of which there are many), it's just not "FUN" for most players.


    Eve Online (space sim MMO) epic space battles are a fantastic example. Because of so many players engaged in PvP combat (from smaller fighters to large capital ships), time dilation is put into effect. Where it can take HOURS for mere minutes of combat to resolve.

    Shift back to WoW history... the opening of the gates of Ahn'Qiraj (original not the classic servers) was an INSANE lag fest. Literally UNPLAYABLE.

    Sorry but no thanks, I value my time more than the seeing the world "full" of players.
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