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  1. #141
    I think WoW should just merge all the servers into three or four. Merge all the RP ones together, or merge all the RP ones into Two. I think that might be the best route so we don't have all these dead servers laying around.

    I am kinda hoping server technology gets better this decade so we can move past layering, and have cross-realm at a minimum.

    Either that or choose what layer you want to be in.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    I think you guys understimate how big the popularity of some stuff are that aren't related to PVE.
    PVP was a very big thing inside WoW, always has been. That is what pulled me into WoW during WOTLK and i'm sure i aint the only one.
    And seeing how they neglect PvP since release only proves that the amount of different players playing this game becomes smaller each expansion. Probably on the hardcore raiders remaining with the way WoW is being directed at, While back in the days you had content for pve, pvp and rp. Now it's just PvE remaining.
    It isnt that big its represented by a very small fraction of the playerbase compared to PvE, WoW has never been an MMO that is highly PvP focused and that is backed up by PvP rarely ever being anywhere close to being balanced, WoW is not a game if you are a PvP player there are other games that do it far better.
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    I think you guys understimate how big the popularity of some stuff are that aren't related to PVE.
    PVP was a very big thing inside WoW, always has been. That is what pulled me into WoW during WOTLK and i'm sure i aint the only one.
    And seeing how they neglect PvP since release only proves that the amount of different players playing this game becomes smaller each expansion. Probably on the hardcore raiders remaining with the way WoW is being directed at, While back in the days you had content for pve, pvp and rp. Now it's just PvE remaining.
    PVP has always been an afterthought since its inception look at how they balance for that. League, Dota among others do it far far far better which i think has helped with the lowering of the overall population. If PVP was as hype and big as you say it was then they would have directed more resources towards it not only now but in previous expansions atleast at the same level as raids or dungeons but that has not happened and i wonder why?

    The amount of people playing gets smaller can not be limited to a single factor either, its a combination of real life, other games, changing interests / hobbies and generally moving past the idea of a long form game. This game will graduate soon if that tells you anything.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Very obvious why.. One has a feeling you live in an open alive world with thousands of players and one has so many layering that even tho its the biggest MMORPG today it feels more dead then the other one.
    Again, that's you saying "my opinion is fact" without having any evidence. There could be 10 million reasons FF14 is doing well. Unless you go out and do a well put together player survey and come out with statistically significant results, you're just guessing.

    You're also taking your PERSONAL opinion of WoW and stating it as fact. YOu say it feels more dead than FF14. More dead to whom? You? I can't say how dead wow feels compared to FF14 because I don't play both, but I did mention how I see people out and about while questing, which directly contradicts your assertions.

  5. #145
    Over 9000! Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It isnt that big its represented by a very small fraction of the playerbase compared to PvE, WoW has never been an MMO that is highly PvP focused and that is backed up by PvP rarely ever being anywhere close to being balanced, WoW is not a game if you are a PvP player there are other games that do it far better.
    Better? That depends on everyones opinion of course. I love WoW PvP. It is just being neglected due PvE being the main ship that floats this boat.
    But it's easy to increase the PvP activity in WoW, Blizzard just doesn't want to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Better? That depends on everyones opinion of course. I love WoW PvP. It is just being neglected due PvE being the main ship that floats this boat.
    But it's easy to increase the PvP activity in WoW, Blizzard just doesn't want to.
    PvE is what keeps WoW alive, PvP is terrible due to it never being balanced because the whole point in PvP is to show off skill but they allow gear to affect PvP so not everyone is on equal footing so it comes down to gear and less about skill, SWTOR does PvP better and rewards the player for actually playing objectives.

    The players who want to PvP do so and the players who dont dont, noone should be forced into gameplay they dont enjoy for stupid benfits from stuff like warmode,etc.
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  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post

    That said, it is demonstrably false to say that layering is not helping with server queues as this technology is part of the reason Blizzard is able to have servers many magnitudes larger than they were in OG Classic.
    Which is the actual problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    So rather than having 20 people try to tag a mob you think it'd be better if 200 people were trying to tag the mob? Like, what the fuck my guy?
    Which goes back to the issue above. When I say "mega"servers, I mean the way Blizzard has more actual players on these servers than they did during actual vanilla. It does not fix player attrition and it does not fix dead servers. It only fixes Blizzard having to deploy and maintain so many servers to handle the same number of players. TBC classic servers are separate from Wrath classic servers and eventually there will likely be separate Cataclysm or Pandaria servers as well.
    Which means more servers to manage as time goes on and populations shifting from one set of servers to another as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    And of course it doesn't stop dead servers. It isn't meant to stop dead servers. CRZ and sharding is what "stops" dead servers and Blizzard clearly has no interest in introducing that tech to Classic.
    It actually makes it worse because players get tired of queues on "mega"servers enabled by layering so they leave creating dead servers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    As far as I know, there's only Season of Mastery right now and that's barely played. Almost all Classic players are playing on the progressive servers. But population expansion and contrition is a natural for any MMO, I don't know why you expect Blizzard to be able to solve a largely social problem.



    So because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the system works, what it's intended to do and how it's intended to be used, you want the game to be demonstrably worse for a vast majority of the playerbase? If this isn't the absolute definition of entitlement, I don't know what is.
    I understand it just fine, which is what you actually reiterated, it allows Blizzard to have many more players on an individual server which means it is partly what makes mega servers possible to begin with and all the issues that stem from that as I mentioned.

  8. #148
    The more I think about it, there more it seems like layers neither improves nor worsens the experience. Only creating something new and exciting, whether you're a dev or a player, actually adds to the experience. Trying to fix a perceived problem technically only gives you the same problem from a different POV. It only seemingly changes it on the surface but its actually the other side of the same coin.

    Specifically, say this is really a social issue. If people cannot play well together in a crowded quest area, or be happy in semi-solitude, making the most of their small server community, or be able to make friends that are willing to make a character on their server, no amount of technical wizardry will fix that personal limitation. Just like you can't just put a lonely person in a room full of people and now they're happy.

    You can cram all these people into one server, you can seperate them, you can layer them, you can make the servers bigger, smaller, whatever, but it'll only be the same old story underneath in different clothing. The same lack of ability to have fun with others, lack of ability to have fun on your own. And ill go a step further and say this emotional friction is actually the cause of the logistical friction -- of literally bumping into people in the wrong place at the right time and all that.
    Last edited by SaucyThighs; 2022-09-23 at 11:02 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by anveena View Post
    Imagine being 2+ years late on this layering stuff. No one cares. Blizzard doesn't care. If you don't want it then go play another game. It's not going away.

    Yet it has worked so far. Queue times have dropped quite a bit so far.
    But you defend pedophiles?

  10. #150
    Stood in the Fire MoFalcon's Avatar
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    Lets see......Hmmm....What can I complain about when there is nothing left to complain about....Hmmm.... Oh Yeah! I got it!


    "Layering has no place in WoW or any MMORPG"


    I really wish you people would stop complaining and just stop playing. You know what has no place in MMORPG? Whiners.....
    Last edited by MoFalcon; 2022-09-24 at 04:32 AM.

  11. #151
    Yeah cause I want to stand in a queue with 2000 other players trying to kill a single mob. Big brain you got there.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    What is the point of this? We are talking about layering. And you are right, most people don't know that they are being layered, they just think WoW is dead and quit.
    Layering kills high pop realms and low pop realms barely have proper working CRZ so they just become more dead.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I still remember 200 man Oondasta to this day, which was like 11 years ago? Best event i ever had. Seeing so many other players nuking down 1 boss.
    No way u get 200 players at 1 spot anymore because of layering. The real MMORPG experience we getting after all
    Hmm I remember the same thing only that it was super laggy to the point where you couldn’t do anything then 5minutes later you’re dead. Sure, that’s fun
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  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    PvE is what keeps WoW alive, PvP is terrible due to it never being balanced because the whole point in PvP is to show off skill but they allow gear to affect PvP so not everyone is on equal footing so it comes down to gear and less about skill, SWTOR does PvP better and rewards the player for actually playing objectives.

    The players who want to PvP do so and the players who dont dont, noone should be forced into gameplay they dont enjoy for stupid benfits from stuff like warmode,etc.
    Does SWTOR not have gear in PvP anymore? Last time I looked (which I admit was years ago) it was even more gear dependent than WoW.

    Either way your point is accurate, WoW and most other MMOs are not good for pure PvP players, simply because they are not designed for it.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Usernameforforums View Post
    Hmm I remember the same thing only that it was super laggy to the point where you couldn’t do anything then 5minutes later you’re dead. Sure, that’s fun
    That may have been true in 2005 but on today's hardware, with the same server population as back then, those 200 players in one area would not produce the same lag. And that is also true with layering as 200 people in one layer wouldn't cause lag either, so it isn't layering that is 'fixing' that, it is the fact of better hardware than what was available 17 years ago.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Someone doesnt have anything better to do on a Saturday than spam posts about irrelevant problems and its the same guy with usopp profile picture.

    Tell me you dont understand computers without telling me.

    Tell me you are selfish and entitled without telling me.

    Layering is one of the greatest things i have ever seen both as tech familiar and a player.

    I get to log on, do the shit i wanna do in 10mins and be done with whatever crap ass requirement outside of content i want to do when there is a new patch without "little billy" causing lag or taking the tag or whatever else.

    Or we could have the old way, of 20 dead servers with players crying that they cant do anything and the other servers crying in takes 2 hours to do 2 dailies.
    Says the guy who obviously doesn't understand tech. I work in the cloud and this type of scalability is EXACTLY what the cloud is for.

  16. #156
    Over 9000! Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoFalcon View Post
    Lets see......Hmmm....What can I complain about when there is nothing left to complain about....Hmmm.... Oh Yeah! I got it!


    "Layering has no place in WoW or any MMORPG"


    I really wish you people would stop complaining and just stop playing. You know what has no place in MMORPG? Whiners.....
    We all have a freedom for opinion, how much hours do you play this game daily basis? You might not like it but i play quite a bit and done most content ingame.
    I seen people come and go, i sure can have an opinion when i experienced a game with and without layering.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    We all have a freedom for opinion, how much hours do you play this game daily basis? You might not like it but i play quite a bit and done most content ingame.
    I seen people come and go, i sure can have an opinion when i experienced a game with and without layering.
    The ability to see other ppl has no real bearing in WoW, layering is required as the game doesnt handle alot of ppl in the same area very well, layering is the best thing WoW has implemented so you can freely quest without wasting time waiting for spawns or quest objectives, players much prefer smooth gameplay rather than a lag fest because you can see many players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    That may have been true in 2005 but on today's hardware, with the same server population as back then, those 200 players in one area would not produce the same lag. And that is also true with layering as 200 people in one layer wouldn't cause lag either, so it isn't layering that is 'fixing' that, it is the fact of better hardware than what was available 17 years ago.
    Even with current tech the game struggles with 50 or more ppl, remember the shadowlands pre event in icecrown the game couldnt handle it and it was just a lag fest, so you are wrong that 200 ppl in one layer wouldnt cause lag, layering does fix lag because it spreads out the playerbase, the lag is cause when too much information has to be passed around too many players at the same time.
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    That may have been true in 2005 but on today's hardware, with the same server population as back then, those 200 players in one area would not produce the same lag. And that is also true with layering as 200 people in one layer wouldn't cause lag either, so it isn't layering that is 'fixing' that, it is the fact of better hardware than what was available 17 years ago.
    This is so untrue. If this was true then world boss zones on Tuesday wouldn’t have been laggy well into 9.1, especially the ardenweald boss.

    The lag is better from 2005 to now but it’s not invulnerable to lag. It still happens.
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  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The ability to see other ppl has no real bearing in WoW, layering is required as the game doesnt handle alot of ppl in the same area very well, layering is the best thing WoW has implemented so you can freely quest without wasting time waiting for spawns or quest objectives, players much prefer smooth gameplay rather than a lag fest because you can see many players.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Even with current tech the game struggles with 50 or more ppl, remember the shadowlands pre event in icecrown the game couldnt handle it and it was just a lag fest, so you are wrong that 200 ppl in one layer wouldnt cause lag, layering does fix lag because it spreads out the playerbase, the lag is cause when too much information has to be passed around too many players at the same time.
    It is an apple to orange comparison between vanilla/classic servers. If you had a classic server with the same population limits as 2005 vanilla but running on modern 2022 hardware server specs, I am pretty sure there would not be the same lag as 2005. Of course there is no way to know for sure because that kind of server does not literally exist. Of course there is still going to be lag once you pass some threshold in players even on that theoretical server regardless. But the 200 player number is just something I threw out as a benchmark.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Usernameforforums View Post
    This is so untrue. If this was true then world boss zones on Tuesday wouldn’t have been laggy well into 9.1, especially the ardenweald boss.

    The lag is better from 2005 to now but it’s not invulnerable to lag. It still happens.
    See above. Same reply. Comparing retail to a classic server with 2005 vanilla population caps on modern 2022 hardware is an apples to oranges comparison.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    It is an apple to orange comparison between vanilla/classic servers. If you had a classic server with the same population limits as 2005 vanilla but running on modern 2022 hardware server specs, I am pretty sure there would not be the same lag as 2005. Of course there is no way to know for sure because that kind of server does not literally exist. Of course there is still going to be lag once you pass some threshold in players even on that theoretical server regardless. But the 200 player number is just something I threw out as a benchmark.
    According to who? You? Random forum poster #927-D?

    Layering was developed before Classic was even introduced because they knew that traditional Vanilla era server populations would not provide a satisfactory experience for potential players, even on the new hardware. Had layering never been introduced the only possible solution to the population influx would be hundreds more servers than they launched with. Hundreds of servers which would have, undoubtedly, become ghost towns months after the population boom died down... forcing Blizzard to eventually consolidate and displace players at an even more rapid pace than they are now. Why on earth would Blizzard shoot themselves in the foot when there are technical solutions which achieve the same effect without the hugely negative side effect of having to merge and consolidate realms at some point in the future?

    You are wrong, plain and simple. You do not know better than Blizzard's own server engineers and getting on a forum and writing weird fanfiction about the way you think they should have handled Classic helps approximately nobody.

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