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  1. #41
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    But like.... *why*?

    Even if they have to have a separate tree for "War", "Raid", and "Adventure", like how pvp talents only work in pvp.

    So youd end up like a fucking Torghast beast in the open world.

    I see no downside.
    Try Torghast as a priest, or hunter, or rogue. They have shit torghast powers.

    So even in your "be a torghast beast in the open world" you won't, because some classes feel like ass in there

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    That's not exactly true. Very few people are actually invested in min-maxing. What most people do is called "parroting".
    There's nothing intrinsically bad in copying proven solutions, and it's not exactly surprising people choose to do it. In the recent expansions, the amount of systems affecting one another made it nigh impossible to determine on your own what's "best" (at least not without the help of certain quality-of-life tools like sims etc., which is rather time consuming). So instead of trying to get math degrees to be able to solve it on their own, people look it up on sites that provide builds and advices.

    Still, for people who enjoy to do it, min-maxing is part of what makes WoW fun. So in the reality we live in, it's a working compromise. Min-maxers have tools to min-max; and people who just want to do "good DPS" have plenty of places to go to for advice. I don't think it's THAT problemiatic for the newbies. Quite on the contrary - WoW has so many dedicated places for every class and spec that whatever you want to play, you can always find plenty of sources that help you understand the game. There are MMOs outhere with simpler systems that are more difficult to get into, because there's hardly any reliable info available on how to play them "properly".
    Redefining the word used doesn't change the point.... why make a system that exists to fuck people up on. When the mass majority of your playerbase essentially ignore it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejiko View Post
    People keep using this word "community" to represent a consensus regarding an opinion.
    How many people fall under this "community"? 5-10%? 25%? 50%?
    Exactly how many people want the old talent trees back?

    There is no single community even among WoW players, ask folks that mostly do pet battles how they feel about talent trees, you`ll
    probably get a variety of answers, ranging between old, new and some hybrid variation that has yet to be implmented, along with some that might not care at all.

    Are people on reddit the average representation of what players want? What about the official forums?

    More on topic however.
    They had a golden opportunity to maintain two separate versions of the game, both offering their own unique take on the talent trees among other features.
    The modern talent trees are fine, if abit bland.
    They also seem to have neglected the ability perks from WoD for some reason, which seemed a fine alternative to getting a new spell every expansion.

    Also PvP only talents are a blight, and one of the worst things ever introduced. Taking baseline abilities from your kit, and restricting them to a single game mode.
    The people who want impactful talents are roughly... 9-20% based on shadowlands metrics. When given the choice of covenants near every player min maxed.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Redefining the word used doesn't change the point.... why make a system that exists to fuck people up on. When the mass majority of your playerbase essentially ignore it.
    I'm not "redefining" it, I'm stating facts.
    As to why make a system that does that? Blizzard doesn't have to "make" them, those systems exist for years; they only freshen them up. So the question should be rather: why not get rid of those systems? Well, for what? Those people you talk about play the game anyway; and the playerbase that loves theorycrafting and min-maxing would be super upset.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I'm not "redefining" it, I'm stating facts.
    As to why make a system that does that? Blizzard doesn't have to "make" them, those systems exist for years; they only freshen them up. So the question should be rather: why not get rid of those systems? Well, for what? Those people you talk about play the game anyway; and the playerbase that loves theorycrafting and min-maxing would be super upset.
    It would remove a lot of pitfalls for new players and it wouldn't effect anything else for one.

    Its akin to " new player" realms still being a thing when really they are just corpse realms.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    It would remove a lot of pitfalls for new players and it wouldn't effect anything else for one.
    Its akin to " new player" realms still being a thing when really they are just corpse realms.
    Why remove the pitfalls for new players though? Does every game have to be super approachable? Well then, lets turn WoW into Candy Crush, that'd definitely remove a lot of pitfalls.
    No, there's no need to. A game can have pitfalls for new players; have some faith in people - most of them can use google and should be able to find wowhead or icyveins, or one of the dozen other WoW-realted sites. There's not a single game in this world with as many resources as WoW.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Why remove the pitfalls for new players though? Does every game have to be super approachable? Well then, lets turn WoW into Candy Crush, that'd definitely remove a lot of pitfalls.
    No, there's no need to. A game can have pitfalls for new players; have some faith in people - most of them can use google and should be able to find wowhead or icyveins, or one of the dozen other WoW-realted sites. There's not a single game in this world with as many resources as WoW.
    Most of wow is far easier then candy crush.... Mythic had gotten harder and harder with time but that isnt the case for most of the game. You can go from level 1 to clearing a tier with white auto attacks on a mage if you so desired.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Most of wow is far easier then candy crush.... Mythic had gotten harder and harder with time but that isnt the case for most of the game. You can go from level 1 to clearing a tier with white auto attacks on a mage if you so desired.
    If most of the game is far easier than Candy Crush, than I'm baffled why it matters if people min-max or not. Just do whatever build you want since it's so easy. Where's the pitfall if the game is so easy that you can beat it with any possible build, clicking randomly on the talent tree?

  8. #48
    Giving us talents that were just baseline abilities before Dragonflight is the biggest false sense of choice I've ever seen. Who the hell greenlit this?
    "May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce"

    "May the Goddess smile upon you."

    "Hero", is what they've all been saying. This world, it isn't worth the saving."

  9. #49
    I like it. For leveling you can do whatever and in the end you have your few presets you just switch between like it has ALWAYS been and always will be.

    This is one of the thing we had threads for every month since they removed the old talent trees.

    Now we have the old talent tree with actually different paths for differnent situation.
    Sure there is fluff in between but i like it and there are still impactfull like always. Just not EVERY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabled View Post
    Giving us talents that were just baseline abilities before Dragonflight is the biggest false sense of choice I've ever seen. Who the hell greenlit this?
    What did you epxect? Them making two huge tress for every class and just throw six+ completly new abilities on top? Talk about talent bloat and clutter
    You still have the abilities.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    For example, the datamined Improved Lay On Hands. Reduces the cooldown by 10%.

    I'm sorry, but I'm never going to notice not being able to use Lay On Hands between minute 9 and 10. This is a talent that's going to be important for minmaxing raiders exclusively, the average player is just not going to be realistically affected by it either way.

    I feel like talents should be impactful, and important. A choice node that decreases Lay On Hands *or* Divine Shield's cooldown by 50%.

    Hell, every node should be a choice node. Like PVP talents, many choices but few slots. But some that are more powerful than others. ...............Oh. Glyphs.

    Hmm...
    Strongly disagree that every talent should be a choice node. In a good designed tree you already have the choice of left/right/center and usually have different playstyles that are supported this way.
    Also not every talent has to be super impactful. Sometimes 10% more lavaburst damage is enough to differenciate it more between elemental and resto for example.

    But i agree that good designed trees are the minority currently. If the tree is designed in a good way (elemental) simple talents can turn into impactful ones for your build. If it isn't (prot pala) such talents feel meaningless and like a waste of points
    Last edited by Foolicious; 2022-09-20 at 03:16 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    What did you epxect? Them making two huge tress for every class and just throw six+ completly new abilities on top? Talk about talent bloat and clutter. You still have the abilities.
    I would have liked for them to improve on what we already have as our kits. One or two new/old abilities and some passives.
    "May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce"

    "May the Goddess smile upon you."

    "Hero", is what they've all been saying. This world, it isn't worth the saving."

  12. #52
    As i fill my mythic plus group i will just armory prospective applicants on my other monitor and make sure they picked the correct talents as listed by subcreation then they get an invite. Not everyone will do that either but a meta will be formed and more will follow it. Now if we could get an add-on that grades the perspective applicant on a scale of how much of the meta they are would be absolutely amazing to save some time looking them up but we can only dream.

  13. #53
    Ok so this is a matter of balance. We used to have extremely impactful and special abilities, that in certain specific situations were extremely strong. This resulted in class stacking for certain raids, certain tiers, even certain bosses. Over the years, in the pursuit of balance, all the "rough edges" have been removed.

    Personally, i hate that. I really miss doing fucking idiotic numbers on AOE fights on my war in MOP, for example. Focusing on balance has removed a lot of the fun for me personally. Fully appreciate some will disagree, but thats my opinion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    As i fill my mythic plus group i will just armory prospective applicants on my other monitor and make sure they picked the correct talents as listed by subcreation then they get an invite. Not everyone will do that either but a meta will be formed and more will follow it. Now if we could get an add-on that grades the perspective applicant on a scale of how much of the meta they are would be absolutely amazing to save some time looking them up but we can only dream.
    What class / spec do you play?
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  14. #54
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Red face

    And I rather not, and moved 90% spells back in general class spellbook by sections, so player self could decide what one need to use and what doesn't, so there will be one general "tree" of modifications and that's just them, by which player will "design" own specialization, without devs imposing spell kit/rotation ~ playing style and own stylistics. Hmm...

    ps. Just to specify my general point of view on existing system (and their tree didn't change anything in since&after-cata approach, it just redistributed spellbook and conditionally "pretend", that devs are moving away from borrowed powers, just change of visualization, everything is as usual):
    smoke and mirrors...
    - 2020-08-07 -
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Current design of classes' organization is very flawed in quality of "development", since perks are too "greedy" for influence (a lot of them are too significant to be just talents (they create spec mechanics, not complement/benefit specific "whole class'" ones), as well as what is distributed to specs separately by default - these systems disrupt organization of healthy, both momentary and long-term choices
    - - -
    there happened not only possibility, but also need for constant switching of what was previously always available, hanch such general dominance and demand of min&max-ing mentality; think for yourself, how often you would need to switch old talents in side-altars of your priority build, mmm? maximum "PvP/PvE and other role" right? because there was no such significant burning feeling that you were losing something class related much and this despite fact that if your build will be very different from "standard", you were staying just representative of your class, highly specialized or broad-based on your choice; and all because degree of influence and appointment of new and old talents differs greatly within design - the greater "weight" of talents, the stronger this burning desire, the more susceptible person to min-maxing, everything is simple and logical
    - - -

    that over past six months we have also discussed in sufficient detail, and even devs didn't miss opportunity to turn this into ridiculous meme/put in service of marketing), which is why, when trying to return "build" significance within classes in Legion, the latter one were simply smashed to pieces (which we, in fact, have been talking about for years, and smart people talked about this already during process of new system's formation). The latter speaks (again) in favor of fact, that no matter how pleasant new system is/was, but foundation laid in Cata and implemented in MoP wasn't in favor of game. Do you understand all this? It significantly cut implementation possibilities of both fantasy component and accuracy/coherence/consistency of modification "classes' part" systems within general game design.
    it remains the such one

    ps2. Friend joked that maybe they stole idea of "branched" simplified spellbook from BDO (however, it follows from description that this tree is a little wider than "rank"-growth by spell points in BDO, but I think joke is pretty appropriate).
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-09-21 at 07:56 AM.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabled View Post
    I would have liked for them to improve on what we already have as our kits. One or two new/old abilities and some passives.
    They did that

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    I mean if you want that game Dragon Ball Kakarot has a new story dlc coming out soon
    It feels weird that a company is still supporting and developing single player a game that released over 2 years ago.

    Feels like most games these days are ”If it’s released then that is when we stop caring” these days.

    Awsome signature and avatar made by Kuragalolz

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    It feels weird that a company is still supporting and developing single player a game that released over 2 years ago.

    Feels like most games these days are ”If it’s released then that is when we stop caring” these days.
    Not the good ones. There are countless "new" SP games that release AMAZING SP dlc, and continue supporting for years. Witcher 3 is probably the poster child for amazing DLC, but even the much hated CP2077 is continuing to release content, and the mighty No Mans Sky is a prime example of how much a game can be turned around with quality DLC. Yes, it is now pretty mucha coop / MP game if you want it to be, but many people play it purely SP.

    Releasing a sequel is probably the most profitable rout to take though, which i guess is why so many stick to that formula. Remember, it wasnt THAT long ago that once a game was released, that was IT. No patches, no updates, no DLC - sequel or die. It gave us a lot of great sequels, and some of the worst cash grab sub-dlc "sequels" of all time as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  18. #58
    Players wanted talent trees back, that means lots of talents that are only filler talents. Usually less talents = more quality talents, more talents = less quality talents.
    This is not me saying not having talent trees is better, just a realistic view on how the talents themselves will be affected by any chosen system of them.

  19. #59
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Impactful really just means that it improves your throughput/effective health beyond a certain margin or offers a substantial utility benefit. Not every talent can offer a proc or an interaction. I mean it can, just look at azerite traits. But why do you hate the engine so much you want to litter it with procs that just pad your damage instead of just giving you some straight stats is beyond me. We cannot go from 7 transformative talents to 61. And the tree may not have 61 but it definitely has way more than 20

  20. #60
    The moment they announced its gonna be build-a-spellbook, was when it was clear it will be boring. They couldve made the classes work baseline with their base abilities and then have talents actually augment your performance based on content (pvp, raid boss, cleave, mass pulls, utility stuff, x mechanic, etc.). Instead, you get more or less Shadowlands playstyle.

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