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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Why remove the pitfalls for new players though? Does every game have to be super approachable? Well then, lets turn WoW into Candy Crush, that'd definitely remove a lot of pitfalls.
    No, there's no need to. A game can have pitfalls for new players; have some faith in people - most of them can use google and should be able to find wowhead or icyveins, or one of the dozen other WoW-realted sites. There's not a single game in this world with as many resources as WoW.
    Yes, it has to be approachable. You don't make games for a small number of people because that gets you less money. And you should never design a game that requires you to go to an external source by default. It's a game, not a job you need to do research on.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Yes, it has to be approachable. You don't make games for a small number of people because that gets you less money. And you should never design a game that requires you to go to an external source by default. It's a game, not a job you need to do research on.
    Since when is Blizzard allowed to do things for money? Last I've heard, they're a greedy company with terrible work ethics. So you're saying now they don't do enough for money...? Make up your mind, people! And no, you're wrong. You're totally allowed to make a product for a narrow group of people if it's earning enough to feed your employees. That's why not every game has to be Candy Crush. But it's amusing that the MMOC people are now advocating for Blizzard to make more money. Truly amusing.

    And BTW, you don't have to go to external sources - it's an MMO, ask a fellow player for help. The "research" you're talking about is hardly "work" for people who enjoy theorycrafting; thinking isn't always work, you know? You can do it for fun. And if you don't want to (and refuse to ask for help or look for external sources), well Candy Crush is still doing strong.

    (Oh and BTW, supposedly - apart from Mythic - WoW is even easier than Candy Crush. At least that's the story around here).
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-09-21 at 09:29 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Since when is Blizzard allowed to do things for money? Last I've heard, they're a greedy company with terrible work ethics. So you're saying now they don't do enough for money...? Make up your mind, people! And no, you're wrong. You're totally allowed to make a product for a narrow group of people if it's earning enough to feed your employees. That's why not every game has to be Candy Crush. But it's amusing that the MMOC people are now advocating for Blizzard to make more money. Truly amusing.

    And BTW, you don't have to go to external sources - it's an MMO, ask a fellow player for help. The "research" you're talking about is hardly "work" for people who enjoy theorycrafting; thinking isn't always work, you know? You can do it for fun. And if you don't want to (and refuse to ask for help or look for external sources), well Candy Crush is still doing strong.

    (Oh and BTW, supposedly - apart from Mythic - WoW is even easier than Candy Crush. At least that's the story around here).
    I mean if you only do the base difficulty of heroic dungeons and lfr then yeah wow is a lot easier then candy crush.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    I mean if you only do the base difficulty of heroic dungeons and lfr then yeah wow is a lot easier then candy crush.
    Well then it's clearly a super approachable game.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    But like.... *why*?

    Even if they have to have a separate tree for "War", "Raid", and "Adventure", like how pvp talents only work in pvp.

    So youd end up like a fucking Torghast beast in the open world.

    I see no downside.
    You want every skill to operate differently in three different contexts? That sounds confusing as hell.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Well then it's clearly a super approachable game.
    I would argue that something without a way to realistically use it isn't a game at all myself.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post



    The people who want impactful talents are roughly... 9-20% based on shadowlands metrics. When given the choice of covenants near every player min maxed.
    I'm not saying your assessment is wrong, but this number which has a huge margin from low to high is completely made up. It has no metrics to base it on, not any rules or falsifiable determinations.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    But like.... *why*?

    Even if they have to have a separate tree for "War", "Raid", and "Adventure", like how pvp talents only work in pvp.

    So youd end up like a fucking Torghast beast in the open world.

    I see no downside.
    Torghast was/is extremely unbalanced. If you don't understand why that's a negative then no more needs to be said.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Ok so this is a matter of balance. We used to have extremely impactful and special abilities, that in certain specific situations were extremely strong. This resulted in class stacking for certain raids, certain tiers, even certain bosses. Over the years, in the pursuit of balance, all the "rough edges" have been removed.

    Personally, i hate that. I really miss doing fucking idiotic numbers on AOE fights on my war in MOP, for example. Focusing on balance has removed a lot of the fun for me personally. Fully appreciate some will disagree, but thats my opinion.

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    What class / spec do you play?
    I only play tanks but this past season was a Brewmaster, season 3 Blood DK, season 2 Prot Warrior and Guardian Druid for the first season. I just went to subcreation copied the better players as i will do again and go about my day and expect the rest of those who apply to MY groups. WoW is not a world its a theme park.
    Last edited by jeezusisacasual; 2022-09-21 at 04:08 PM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    But like.... *why*?
    Because:

    1: It'd be monumentally difficult to balance branching talent options and all their combinations
    2: It'd still end up with cookie cutter 'Best' choices, making it 'no brainer' to pick or not pick.


    I mean, the way it works now... if you don't like the 10% cooldown on Lay on Hands, don't take the Talent (if you can avoid it). You already have other talents overall to choose from, right?


    That being said, yes, more interesting talents would still be better than mediocre ones.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    I only play tanks but this past season was a Brewmaster, season 3 Blood DK, season 2 Prot Warrior and Guardian Druid for the first season. I just went to subcreation copied the better players as i will do again and go about my day and expect the rest of those who apply to MY groups. WoW is not a world its a theme park.
    So you played BrM in a season where your precious website has blood as top? Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  12. #72
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    As i fill my mythic plus group i will just armory prospective applicants on my other monitor and make sure they picked the correct talents as listed by subcreation then they get an invite. Not everyone will do that either but a meta will be formed and more will follow it. Now if we could get an add-on that grades the perspective applicant on a scale of how much of the meta they are would be absolutely amazing to save some time looking them up but we can only dream.
    What stops some one from logging out with the “right” talents and then just changing them once in game given that the armoury updates on log out only.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #73
    You have to realize you have like 30 of these talent points. 10% reduction on LoH is not terrible for that budget.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you played BrM in a season where your precious website has blood as top? Why?
    Because i played Blood last season and wanted a change of pace and since Brewmaster is the 2nd best tank it was not a drop off, i was not going from Destro to Aff plus this patch lasted 9 days for me and i was finished since KSM done i quit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    What stops some one from logging out with the “right” talents and then just changing them once in game given that the armoury updates on log out only.
    Its not my problem, i want to win not chase a fantasy. Its why i am hoping we have a new IO score that rates people based on the selections they have made, that way we have a better tool to place players for ease of selecting. That is why a choice in this game which allows people to have so much information is an illusion and why i am very much against things that are deemed mandatory by not only the playerbase but the design team. Things like kicks are not a choice unless its a class that did not have one previously and as long as there is a right way to play and a wrong way to play the game will always foster this mindset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    In the end it does not really matter for most how many levels the cookie cutter build container has. People will copy paste builds from their favourite guide page and are done with that super-duper new feature.
    This is my entire point, look at covenant selection if people want to see if people are super duper unique or not.
    Last edited by jeezusisacasual; 2022-09-21 at 10:22 PM.

  15. #75
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Its not my problem, i want to win not chase a fantasy. Its why i am hoping we have a new IO score that rates people based on the selections they have made, that way we have a better tool to place players for ease of selecting. That is why a choice in this game which allows people to have so much information is an illusion and why i am very much against things that are deemed mandatory by not only the playerbase but the design team. Things like kicks are not a choice unless its a class that did not have one previously and as long as there is a right way to play and a wrong way to play the game will always foster this mindset.
    Isn’t it actually your problem if you are planning on using the armoury to cross reference rather some one is using the meta build or not?

    No idea if IO updates in real time or if that’s also armoury it seems like any way you could actually check meta builds beyond physically inspecting every party member would have a easy work around.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #76
    Yeah that's a big no.

    They honestly need to remove many of the borrowed power abilities from the talent trees and put more boring passive options in them.

    A lot of the basic classes and specs are completely hollow without all of the borrowed power bloat that was added in Legion. They need to create a unified vision of how the spec should be played, and then the talent trees can be extensions of that.

    The way that they are currently, the talent trees completely define the way a spec is played with the basic spec being unrecognizable from the finished build. It really shouldn't be like that. I'd rather they go with any of the design philosophy from Vanilla-WoD instead of taking the Legion+ approach.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Yeah that's a big no.

    They honestly need to remove many of the borrowed power abilities from the talent trees and put more boring passive options in them.

    A lot of the basic classes and specs are completely hollow without all of the borrowed power bloat that was added in Legion. They need to create a unified vision of how the spec should be played, and then the talent trees can be extensions of that.

    The way that they are currently, the talent trees completely define the way a spec is played with the basic spec being unrecognizable from the finished build. It really shouldn't be like that. I'd rather they go with any of the design philosophy from Vanilla-WoD instead of taking the Legion+ approach.
    I disagree. The first 3-4 rows of talents provide the core abilities and passives for every spec. This forms the base of the specialization. Beyond that is how you customize that spec to be your own, and in my opinion that's what makes it fun.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It went down well?
    Even though I do agree with this, IMHO the best talents that we had, but it was not that popular for those that care too much about talents.

  19. #79
    When Blizz switched from old talent trees to current system, it was to have more impactful talents. Players complained. Now they're switching back, and players complain. It was predictable.

    To Infinity and Beyond!

  20. #80
    There's more heavy hitting important talents in the tree than every before. Like, SIGNIFICANTLY more. We have borrowed power abilities rolled into the talent trees. The amount of high impact abilities as well as interactions with those abilities have increased drastically compared to the modern era talents. The current trees provide options, high impact abilities, passive or active play while at the same time allowing you to feel like you're actually progressing your character level to level.

    I really don't know what you're expecting? Every single talent point to massively impact rotation, survivability or utility?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    You had more impactful talents, and the community REEEd and wanted the old shitty talent system back, so that's what is happening.
    The new system has all the things from the old talent trees PLUS the borrowed power options rolled into it. Anyone thinking the MoP-SL era talents were anything but horrible for feeling of character progression as well as variability on builds is utterly deluded.
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