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  1. #81
    There's more heavy hitting important talents in the tree than every before. Like, SIGNIFICANTLY more. We have borrowed power abilities rolled into the talent trees. The amount of high impact abilities as well as interactions with those abilities have increased drastically compared to the modern era talents. The current trees provide options, high impact abilities, passive or active play while at the same time allowing you to feel like you're actually progressing your character level to level.

    I really don't know what you're expecting? Every single talent point to massively impact rotation, survivability or utility?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    You had more impactful talents, and the community REEEd and wanted the old shitty talent system back, so that's what is happening.
    The new system has all the things from the old talent trees PLUS the borrowed power options rolled into it. Anyone thinking the MoP-SL era talents were anything but horrible for feeling of character progression as well as variability on builds is utterly deluded.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post

    What did you epxect? Them making two huge tress for every class and just throw six+ completly new abilities on top? Talk about talent bloat and clutter
    You still have the abilities.
    I've never felt a sense of bloat or clutter looking at my PVP talents, or toy collection. That's the kind of system we need. Bring back every single pruned ability, but only let us use a few at a time. Like imagine a node in the mage spellbook, where you choose whether you get arcane blast, fireball, frost bolt, or frostfire bolt. It wouldnt clutter your bars, you only get one. But they could go all fucking out and throw in every spell thats ever existed, because they dont need to balance around you using all of them all of the time.

    Prime Glyphs.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    . But they could go all fucking out and throw in every spell thats ever existed, because they dont need to balance around you using all of them all of the time.

    Prime Glyphs.
    Yes, they actually would. Because every single PvE encounter, and the entire pvp system would be redesigned to be balanced around every single ability. They wouldnt need to do that to the boss HP, or player HP, because as you said they wouldnt be able to pick more than #XYZ abilities, but everything else would need to be designed around a player potentially having any possible combination of a HUGE list of abilities. How would you balance a mythic fight around this? How would to balance M+ around this?
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  4. #84
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Well, this is vague, abilities used by "non-enhanced" talents with proper organization won't be of interest for balancing, so in fact balance setting will largely come down mostly to what is already there, therefore it's not really wise to limit number of spells only by "specialization", player will still (due to limited talent points and own preferences) be unable to go beyond proposed ceiling. Player self must choose what to use constantly, what - from time to time, and what can be forgetting about completely due to inefficiency with this choice of talents and characteristics (equip = role)... but no, equip for some reason stacks with specialization, for some reason it stacks with level, but it shouldn't and generally has no special significance in role-building (performance indicators don't really give anything role-forming/gaining, role is forcibly almost fully shoved into specialization), only in strengthening absolute values. Well, how did they even decide to spoil everything like that

    ps. It’s generally inappropriate to remember such a muck as PvP perks here, this is role of PvP-sets and only them, and, of course, without "adding individual abilities".
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-09-22 at 06:49 AM.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Natureseer View Post
    I disagree. The first 3-4 rows of talents provide the core abilities and passives for every spec. This forms the base of the specialization. Beyond that is how you customize that spec to be your own, and in my opinion that's what makes it fun.
    And I get that, but many of the specs allow you to customize them too far to the point that the basic class design no longer has any influence at all on what you end up doing.
    Not EVERY spec mind you. If you are only looking at one class in depth, you'll likely miss what I mean.
    I much prefer the more simple designs that allow you to know what you're getting yourself into when you pick the class and spec.

    Looking at Legion Frost DK for example, you went from being: Completely unviable as a spec to- Annoying micro manage game with Shattering Strikes and Icy Talons to- Breath of Sindragosa turret with some slight RNG fiesta added to- Something kinda boring but at least wasn't a ton of micromanagement.

    So many specs have this same issue where your entire playstyle can change from patch to patch based on buffs and nerfs, and that totally sucks.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Isn’t it actually your problem if you are planning on using the armoury to cross reference rather some one is using the meta build or not?

    No idea if IO updates in real time or if that’s also armoury it seems like any way you could actually check meta builds beyond physically inspecting every party member would have a easy work around.
    Its only my problem because of the pass / fail nature of the game. I do not always invite the meta but if we have say a 2200 Balance Druid or a 2200 Surv Hunter i will always pick the Surv hunter because 9 times out of 10 they just produce more along with other utility from better kicks etc. Do i hate that balance druid? No but the game pushes me to go with the safest route possible. This is sort of the problem i have spoken about in the past about allowing players to see to much under the hood because it breeds this type of mentality. I want to achieve my own personal goals as fast and in the easiest manner possible lets just hope a tool shows up to help select players is all i am saying.
    Last edited by jeezusisacasual; 2022-09-22 at 09:09 PM.

  7. #87
    All I'm saying is that Adaptation, Gladiator's Medallion, and Relentless were grade-A examples of what talents should look like. Something that actually changes a spell in a tangible way. Decreasing a 10 minute cooldown to a 9 minute cooldown isnt a talent. It's boring. It's pathetic.

    Example:

    Lay On Hands A: As expected. 10 minute cooldown, massive heal.
    Lay On Hands B: Works like a blessing. Place it on someone (only one active at a time), and when they would die, they instead get a massive heal. Lower cooldown, but can be dispelled.
    Lay On Hands C: Instead places a shield on an enemy that absorbs 50% of incoming healing up to X amount.
    Lay On Hands D: 5 minute cooldown, 50% healing, but adds a few seconds of casting time.
    Lay On Hands E: Battle Rez.

    Now do that to every spell. Mages can choose whether they get firebolt, frostbolt, or frostfire bolt, with enough variation in cast time and secondary effects to feel different, but not clutter their action bars because they only get one at a time. Replace some cast times with cooldowns. Let some spells be cast while moving, or un-interruptable, etc.

    And most importantly, and I can't stress this enough, bring back Grimoire of Supremacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes, they actually would. Because every single PvE encounter, and the entire pvp system would be redesigned to be balanced around every single ability. They wouldnt need to do that to the boss HP, or player HP, because as you said they wouldnt be able to pick more than #XYZ abilities, but everything else would need to be designed around a player potentially having any possible combination of a HUGE list of abilities. How would you balance a mythic fight around this? How would to balance M+ around this?
    By not making the ability interactions more complex than they need to be. They already have to balance around each party having a combined kit of a MASSIVE amount of abilities. It doesnt matter though, because interaction between those abilities is minimal.

    What I mean is, stacking abilities like "Judgment heals you when it hits. Judgment does more damage. Judgment has another charge. Judgment has a chance to grant a charge of Judgment." doesnt need to exist in any exteme fashion. It's only a real problem in a talent tree like we're getting, because you can pick all of them.

    Like glyphs, problematic talent combinations should just be mutually exclusive. Problem solved.
    Last edited by Amnaught; 2022-09-22 at 04:57 PM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    All I'm saying is that Adaptation, Gladiator's Medallion, and Relentless were grade-A examples of what talents should look like. Something that actually changes a spell in a tangible way. Decreasing a 10 minute cooldown to a 9 minute cooldown isnt a talent. It's boring. It's pathetic.

    Example:

    Lay On Hands A: As expected. 10 minute cooldown, massive heal.
    Lay On Hands B: Works like a blessing. Place it on someone (only one active at a time), and when they would die, they instead get a massive heal. Lower cooldown, but can be dispelled.
    Lay On Hands C: Instead places a shield on an enemy that absorbs 50% of incoming healing up to X amount.
    Lay On Hands D: 5 minute cooldown, 50% healing, but adds a few seconds of casting time.
    Lay On Hands E: Battle Rez.

    Now do that to every spell. Mages can choose whether they get firebolt, frostbolt, or frostfire bolt, with enough variation in cast time and secondary effects to feel different, but not clutter their action bars because they only get one at a time. Replace some cast times with cooldowns. Let some spells be cast while moving, or un-interruptable, etc.

    And most importantly, and I can't stress this enough, bring back Grimoire of Supremacy.

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    By not making the ability interactions more complex than they need to be. They already have to balance around each party having a combined kit of a MASSIVE amount of abilities. It doesnt matter though, because interaction between those abilities is minimal.

    What I mean is, stacking abilities like "Judgment heals you when it hits. Judgment does more damage. Judgment has another charge. Judgment has a chance to grant a charge of Judgment." doesnt need to exist in any exteme fashion. It's only a real problem in a talent tree like we're getting, because you can pick all of them.

    Like glyphs, problematic talent combinations should just be mutually exclusive. Problem solved.
    So now you want far LESS impactful abilities? This is all very confusing.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So now you want far LESS impactful abilities? This is all very confusing.
    What? No. I want more powerful, impactful talents... that stand on their own.

    I want to not need to worry about the balancing act involved in taking a dozen +2.5% damage in specific cases with specific abilities to fudge the game into crazy interactions. The judgment example could be one talent altogether. Improved Judgement: has two charges, heals you when you damage the judged target, increased damage in consecration, +2% block chance, all in one talent.

    I honestly dont see where the confusion is happening. Throw a choice node on every spell in the spellbook, make them all fill a similar niche but in a very different way, and make them interact with each other in nonstackable ways so nothing crazy happens. Extra stuff slotted like PVP talents currently are, and theyre mutually exclusive with problematic interactions.
    Last edited by Amnaught; 2022-09-23 at 01:17 AM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    What? No. I want more powerful, impactful talents... that stand on their own.

    I want to not need to worry about the balancing act involved in taking a dozen +2.5% damage in specific cases with specific abilities to fudge the game into crazy interactions. The judgment example could be one talent altogether. Improved Judgement: has two charges, heals you when you damage the judged target, increased damage in consecration, +2% block chance, all in one talent.
    You've replaced this balancing act with a much, much worse one.

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