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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Not talking about clunkiness of rotations or fun or subjective things, talking about measurable performance. This is only through BFA, but it is pretty consistent: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...wiQ/edit#gid=0

    And this is just shadow - priest is a class, not a spec, and Disc is historically one of the strongest healing specs in the game for 10+ years running, with only a few mediocre tiers.

    But even just for shadow, can you think of a single hybrid dps spec that is consistently better? Balance is often good but also has a lot of bad spots; elemental is almost never better than shadow; Ret/Feral we don't even need to ask; Windwalker/Havoc are brought for the buff, but again aren't super consistent in raids; DPS warrior always gets a slot; DKS...totally depends. Who among those has it consistently better than shadow? Certainly not many, possibly not any!

    Shadow is also almost always better than 2/3 of the pure DPS class specs, and often better than all 3 for at least one or two pure dps classes per tier.

    Like I'm sorry, but there is no data to support shadow in specific or priests in general being a poorly treated class. It is one of the most consistently good classes in the game across all content for the entire history of the game.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah I don't necessarily most with any of this*. I think specific criticisms of the tree are perfectly valid and justified, especially around these issues.

    Just this is a separate point than this hilarious whining about being the redheaded stepchild of the developers which is obviously not true.

    *The last point I think is completely wrong. Double PI is insanely powerful and priests get it for free, along with MD and no AE mind soothe. Shadow is going to be in a better spot purely because of that.

    Healers I think will really depend on tuning. If holy does good damage with Empyreal blaze etc it will probably be fine, since damage is typically what matters for m+ healing.
    Boomkin/Warr/DK have historically been FAR above Shadow.

    Shadow is more of a mid tier hybrid, in the same tier as Enhc and Feral. All specs that have had a few periods of extreme dominance, and many more periods of being bad/middle of the pack.

    The only reason why Shadow is not down there with Ele and Ret, is that we were recently very strong for half of BFA.



    WotLK: Worst Dps in the game together with Ele because of no scaling. Bandaid solution for Haste scaling right before ICC lunched, making us mid tier for the last raid

    Cata: OP in t11, good in t12, average in t13

    MoP: Single worst Dps spec in the game for all but the two resets where they buffed our DoTs (which made us middle of the pack), then nerfed them again

    WoD: Great scaling, but preemptively nerfed before we could benefit from said advantage. Middle of the pack.

    Legion: OP in EN. Average in the rest.

    BFA: Bad in Uldir. OP in BoD and EP (because of fight design favouring Shadow, not because of tuning). Lower mid pack for Nyalotha

    SL: Only played Sepulcher, in which we were once again pretty average




    Boomkins/Warrs/DKs have all had at least one patch every expansion where they were extremely strong, if not FotM, which is not the case for Shadow. None of them have had any expansions where they were just average, and lets not even start about MoP, where Shadow was dogshit for a full expansion.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2022-10-11 at 01:53 PM.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Boomkin/Warr/DK have historically been FAR above Shadow.

    Shadow is more of a mid tier hybrid, in the same tier as Enhc and Feral. All specs that have had a few periods of extreme dominance, and many more periods of being bad/middle of the pack.

    The only reason why Shadow is not down there with Ele and Ret, is that we were recently very strong for half of BFA.



    WotLK: Worst Dps in the game together with Ele because of no scaling. Bandaid solution for Haste scaling right before ICC lunched, making us mid tier for the last raid

    Cata: OP in t11, good in t12, average in t13

    MoP: Single worst Dps spec in the game for all but the two resets where they buffed our DoTs (which made us middle of the pack), then nerfed them again

    WoD: Great scaling, but preemptively nerfed before we could benefit from said advantage. Middle of the pack.

    Legion: OP in EN. Average in the rest.

    BFA: Bad in Uldir. OP in BoD and EP (because of fight design favouring Shadow, not because of tuning). Lower mid pack for Nyalotha

    SL: Only played Sepulcher, in which we were once again pretty average




    Boomkins/Warrs/DKs have all had at least one patch every expansion where they were extremely strong, if not FotM, which is not the case for Shadow. None of them have had any expansions where they were just average, and lets not even start about MoP, where Shadow was dogshit for a full expansion.
    Point is that in the modern game (Legion-BFA-SL) priests are in the top half of hybrid dps specs in the game, probably top third, in terms of reliably being good in raids.

    Kinda moot though since the spec just got giga nerfed lol. If they don't make more changes it's definitely going to suffer.

  3. #43
    Honestly, I have no idea how to play Shadow in DF. The spec tree is a gigantic mess and there is so much going on either route you follow, it's just way too much. The same for Balance Druid. While I like a lot of interactions, it's just become too overcomplicated.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  4. #44
    The Patient marathal's Avatar
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    I haven’t logged in for more than a few minutes every week or two. The thought of logging in tomorrow to what ever mess goes live is not something I am looking forward to. It will be whatever they feel is the way they want the class played based on feedback from those top players that desire it to be that way.

    This is the first time in 13 years of playing that I’m in no rush to buy the next expansion. For now I’ve got a bunch of content I never finished, and I’ll just wait and see if they continue with the “we feel shadow is in a good place” stock answer.

  5. #45
    It looks like the Flash Concentration style is going to be meta for Dragonflight at launch. I hate that playstyle so much and I hate even more we're going to play so similar to how we had to for most of Shadowlands. Flash Concentration is soooo boring to play and makes me not want to play Holy at all for this Xpac. I wish they hadn't just made that legendary power talent. It's kind of lazy to just recycle it. Do something different Blizz!
    You know the thing...

  6. #46
    Holy remains pretty boring, though Empryeal Blaze is kind of neat.

    Disc definitely plays better though, assuming they don't crater it with nerfs

  7. #47
    OOoooo, I'm from the future and I have some bad news.

  8. #48
    The Patient
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    Disc: best healer by far in the game, gets more damage to compensate for marginal healing nerfs
    Priest mains, time to go ballistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Dude A: "lol well if you weren't such a Blizzard Shill™ you'd believe my source!"
    Dude B: ::posts the Webster Dictionary definition of the word 'objective' followed by a 700-word essay about how the WoW community is doomed::
    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPrincess View Post
    shut up idiot

  9. #49
    Maybe when they take disc's core mechanics away from it to give to a new class, like they did with demo locks

  10. #50
    I think it's both funny and weird shadow priests on MMoC feel they get "The worst treatment" from the WoW devs when NO OTHER class or spec in this entire game has got as much attention or revamps as shadow priest.
    Every expansion Shadow priest talents/abilities/playstyle gets redone and re worked. I can think of about 10 specs who wish Blizzard would give them as much attention and work that shadow priest clearly gets. I mean Blizz is clearly trying, they are just failing. But to say you get the "Worst treatment" is funny

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    I mean Blizz is clearly trying, they are just failing. But to say you get the "Worst treatment" is funny
    And why priest needed that many reworks? Yeah, take a guess.

  12. #52
    Mechagnome Indigenously Abled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    I think it's both funny and weird shadow priests on MMoC feel they get "The worst treatment" from the WoW devs when NO OTHER class or spec in this entire game has got as much attention or revamps as shadow priest.
    Every expansion Shadow priest talents/abilities/playstyle gets redone and re worked. I can think of about 10 specs who wish Blizzard would give them as much attention and work that shadow priest clearly gets. I mean Blizz is clearly trying, they are just failing. But to say you get the "Worst treatment" is funny
    2-month necro? Did you get spriest'd?
    Thanks for the ad-hominem; it supports your inability to support your argument.

  13. #53
    It is a Priest at the end of the day, you will immediately think that it is a healing class and when you break the class down even further you begin to understand the treatment is not actually so bad. They have always been known as one of the best raid healers with their Holy specialization always being quite strong. The other two specializations which are mostly used in PvP requires another approach to understand how the class is played and why it will seem like it is in a bad one (excluding the ever so common HPriest/Destro Warlock set up).

    One example is when playing Spriest in arena or in rated battleground situations. Ultimately, it is not an out and out DPS spec so if you expect 'insane' damage output every game to match melee tunnels or Warlocks then you will always think that the class/spec is in a bad way or mistreated. When played well the class allows for utility which is unmatched by other classes, that will always be overlooked if you are not with skilled players.

    Another example is when playing as a Discipline Priest, how many other healing classes can run a mythic sometimes beating other DPS and still maintaining a high HPS...Holy Paladin during a lucky patch maybe. They can struggle in PvP as well sometimes but going back to your original comment in the thread....they do not seem to hate priest but instead ask the player to have some understanding that the class as a DPS spec is utility, still with capabilities or doing the odd one shot on an slightly under geared player.

    I have switched between PvP/PvE and mentioned all specs in my reply but it is a topic I could write a few pages on.

    Care (I played priest for about 5 years+ or so).

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Care-Romes View Post
    It is a Priest at the end of the day, you will immediately think that it is a healing class and when you break the class down even further you begin to understand the treatment is not actually so bad. They have always been known as one of the best raid healers with their Holy specialization always being quite strong. The other two specializations which are mostly used in PvP requires another approach to understand how the class is played and why it will seem like it is in a bad one (excluding the ever so common HPriest/Destro Warlock set up).

    One example is when playing Spriest in arena or in rated battleground situations. Ultimately, it is not an out and out DPS spec so if you expect 'insane' damage output every game to match melee tunnels or Warlocks then you will always think that the class/spec is in a bad way or mistreated. When played well the class allows for utility which is unmatched by other classes, that will always be overlooked if you are not with skilled players.

    Another example is when playing as a Discipline Priest, how many other healing classes can run a mythic sometimes beating other DPS and still maintaining a high HPS...Holy Paladin during a lucky patch maybe. They can struggle in PvP as well sometimes but going back to your original comment in the thread....they do not seem to hate priest but instead ask the player to have some understanding that the class as a DPS spec is utility, still with capabilities or doing the odd one shot on an slightly under geared player.

    I have switched between PvP/PvE and mentioned all specs in my reply but it is a topic I could write a few pages on.

    Care (I played priest for about 5 years+ or so).
    Holy priest has been the worst or second worst healer over the past decade. Yes it has had moments (more recently) but blizz’s design for healers is basically that holy priest is always bad and holy pally is always good.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Care-Romes View Post
    One example is when playing Spriest in arena or in rated battleground situations. Ultimately, it is not an out and out DPS spec so if you expect 'insane' damage output every game to match melee tunnels or Warlocks then you will always think that the class/spec is in a bad way or mistreated. When played well the class allows for utility which is unmatched by other classes, that will always be overlooked if you are not with skilled players.
    This is just wrong. The spriest community (back when there was one) has always complained about gameplay not numbers.

    We where the loudest voice that begged blizzard to remove things like surrender, voidform, or some degenerate playstyles like going afk during voidform. Not buffing damage by 20% so we could have a chance to be on par with destro locks.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Care-Romes View Post
    It is a Priest at the end of the day, you will immediately think that it is a healing class and when you break the class down even further you begin to understand the treatment is not actually so bad. They have always been known as one of the best raid healers with their Holy specialization always being quite strong. The other two specializations which are mostly used in PvP requires another approach to understand how the class is played and why it will seem like it is in a bad one [/I][/B]
    In the modern era of Legion+, holy has not been one of the best raid healers at all lol. Discipline has been the go-to priest spec most of that time, with holy only really improving at the end of SL.

    Also, Disc hasn't done great damage in dungeons for quite a while. lol holy was the top dps healer in s3/s4 which is why it was suddenly considered good.

    This is a wild analysis!

  17. #57
    Blame the Church.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    In the modern era of Legion+, holy has not been one of the best raid healers at all lol. Discipline has been the go-to priest spec most of that time, with holy only really improving at the end of SL.

    Also, Disc hasn't done great damage in dungeons for quite a while. lol holy was the top dps healer in s3/s4 which is why it was suddenly considered good.

    This is a wild analysis!
    It's pretty much since the start of wrath when they buffed holy pally and nerfed holy priest. Since then it's been paly > other healers > hpriest for most of the past 15 years.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    I agree with you.

    I think overall through WoW history PVP and PVE considered, Priests, esp Shadow Priests, get shit treatment, followed next by Warriors.

    Always speak with your wallet so great job cancelling that pre-order. I'm all for not pre ordering anyway. I personally am not buying DF at all, simply because it SCREAMS cash grab dog crap to me.

    Just chillen playin New World waitin for that Riot MMORPG to release, gonna be so much better then WoW.
    DF has honestly been fun if you're a semi-casual wow player. Pugging 15+ keys isn't bad, raids are fairly fun. And there is no daily grind forcing you to play. It feels different than wow has in the past.

    As for that riot mmo, don't get your hopes up. I know some folks who work at riot, and they're taking a lot of inspiration from WoW more than any other MMO. And as it still sits, the only game Riot has made successfully is still LoL, which most folks who are a fan of that genre preferred HoN or Dota/Dota 2. so they aren't even the best game in their original format.

    But, I hope that it comes out well. I do find it odd you think DF is a cash grab, while playing New World, one of the biggest trash cash grab mmos in the last 10 years.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    I think it's both funny and weird shadow priests on MMoC feel they get "The worst treatment" from the WoW devs when NO OTHER class or spec in this entire game has got as much attention or revamps as shadow priest.
    Every expansion Shadow priest talents/abilities/playstyle gets redone and re worked. I can think of about 10 specs who wish Blizzard would give them as much attention and work that shadow priest clearly gets. I mean Blizz is clearly trying, they are just failing. But to say you get the "Worst treatment" is funny
    Imagine thinking that getting "revamps" is an exclusively good thing.

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