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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This argument needs to stop. The whole "its popular in this different game so it would absolutely be popular in wow" argument doesnt make any sense at all. There are a lot of things popular in one game that would not be popular in another. Drifting competitions are really popular in Forza - but i really dont think F1 sims should add a drifting competition. Vehicles are very popular in Battlefield, but i dont think they should add attack helis to counterstrike. Intentionally outlandish examples to prove a point - just because it is popular in one game does not mean it would be popular in wow.

    People play wow because they like wow, and people play FF14 because they like FF14. Is there some overlap? sure. Is it absolute? Absolutely not.
    My only point on FFXIV was the fact it gets savage in there for housing.

    Every other point is WoW specific. Folks are absolutely driven by "I got this achievement" here, got this pet, got this piece of gear. We post the most obscure achievements we have in Trade Chat. The fight for World First was vicious, but then there's also the World First (Profession) right after it where people developed entire routes for harvesting. Folks love excuses to brag, and housign provides another way to do so. Its Transmog, but an entire building on the landscape you can tour people around rather than just your own armor set.

    Housing's been requested for absolute decades so the idea there's no desire for it in the game just isn't true

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    You only needed a mission table addon if you were unable to figure it out. The rest of the Garrison was flat-out the easiest playpen ever made.
    It's easy to figure it out. Even trivial. But it's hard to keep all missions in mind. Same problem, as with current mission table. Default UI requires too many switches between missions and follower. Sheet of paper and pencil are required to analyze all info. It's too tedious and takes too much time. Isn't casual-friendly at all. That's why they switched to lesser amount of missions in Legion.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2022-09-27 at 05:51 AM.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  3. #63
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It's easy to figure it out. Even trivial. But it's hard to keep all missions in mind. Same problem, as with current mission table. Default UI requires too many switches between missions and follower. Sheet of paper and pencil are required to analyze all info. It's too tedious and takes too much time. Isn't casual-friendly at all. That's why they switched to lesser amount of missions in Legion.
    The mission table in SL feels easier than in Legion. It is casual friendly if you put your mind to it, if not, then of course not. You don't need a pen and paper, or a calculator. You need a higher attack than the target defense, and you need a higher defense than the targeted attack - you get there by leveling your basics and followers. There isn't more to it but this is not the subject of this thread.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    My only point on FFXIV was the fact it gets savage in there for housing.
    The safest for Blizzard is to not do neighborhoods like LOTRO and FFXIV, but we want actual 'space' so an apartment isn't doable either, so we have the personal phasing system, and Blizzard just has to designate zones/areas where a player housing plot can be placed (like they originally revealed about Warlords of Draenor) but this is the easy option for them to do, the problem is making what is going on within - dynamic. They could give us a modular build like the Garrison across the whole of Azeroth but we want more freedom after all.

    Wildstar housing is too out-there and optimistic to expect with WoW.
    ArcheAge housing is too out-there and optimistic to expect with WoW.
    Elder Scrolls Online housing is too big and optimistic to expect with WoW.
    Lord of The Rings Online housing is scarce, limiting the availability to players.
    Final Fantasy XIV housing is scarce, limiting the availability to players.
    Final Fantasy XIV apartments are too small, limiting the options of players.
    New World housing is good but it is too linked to content and becomes a strategic deployment more than freedom (Though, I hear they have loosened a lot of rules on that with their recent update).
    Star Wars: The Old Republic housing uses the same system as LOTRO's housing but in personal plots instead of neighbourhoods.
    World of Warcraft: WOD - Garrisons are too limited, strangling player options due to modular build up but the mechanic needed for good housing options is there, even assets of buildings are available, we just need to ability to call them ours, and decorate them as we wish. WoW housing would most likely start out with faction designs (RIP to most on Horde side).
    Last edited by Lochton; 2022-09-27 at 06:31 AM.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    My only point on FFXIV was the fact it gets savage in there for housing.

    Every other point is WoW specific. Folks are absolutely driven by "I got this achievement" here, got this pet, got this piece of gear. We post the most obscure achievements we have in Trade Chat. The fight for World First was vicious, but then there's also the World First (Profession) right after it where people developed entire routes for harvesting. Folks love excuses to brag, and housign provides another way to do so. Its Transmog, but an entire building on the landscape you can tour people around rather than just your own armor set.

    Housing's been requested for absolute decades so the idea there's no desire for it in the game just isn't true
    Less than 20 years, but "absolute decades"? Hyperbole does not help your argument. Housing has ALSO been rejected since day one by many players, why are you not mentioning them?
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    The mission table in SL feels easier than in Legion. It is casual friendly if you put your mind to it, if not, then of course not. You don't need a pen and paper, or a calculator. You need a higher attack than the target defense, and you need a higher defense than the targeted attack - you get there by leveling your basics and followers. There isn't more to it but this is not the subject of this thread.
    Yeah, but this task doesn't have only one solution. The most obvious way to do it - is way too suboptimal. Optimizing allows running 3-5x more missions/day. Big difference.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, but this task doesn't have only one solution. The most obvious way to do it - is way too suboptimal. Optimizing allows running 3-5x more missions/day. Big difference.
    Just by the information I told you, I run about 4-5 runs a day, could run more but I can't be bothered with logging on to see when done or time it as you don't need the mission table for much in Shadowlands, and thus I only run for pet tokens, reputation tokens, and the gold now and then.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    Just by the information I told you, I run about 4-5 runs a day, could run more but I can't be bothered with logging on to see when done or time it as you don't need the mission table for much in Shadowlands, and thus I only run for pet tokens, reputation tokens, and the gold now and then.
    Many missions can be run with 1-2 followers + minions. And you can have 20+ followers. It's not that hard. Takes 2-3 hours of pointless fighting against RNG to get them. It's just too hard to analyze all variants. And I don't want to have my brain boiled. I like idea of mission tables being passive offline progression. "Passive" means 0 challenge. It's trivial? Yeah. There is nothing bad in automating this process via addons then.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2022-09-27 at 07:47 AM.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  8. #68
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Many missions can be run with 1-2 followers + minions. And you can have 20+ followers. It's not that hard. Takes 2-3 hours of pointless fighting against RNG to get them. It's just too hard to analyze all variants. And I don't want to have my brain boiled. I like idea of mission tables being passive offline progression. "Passive" means 0 challenge. It's trivial? Yeah. There is nothing bad in automating this process via addons then.
    Then you don't do them if you do not wish to set your time into it? Solved! You can't optimize play without putting time into it. And Mission Table is almost optional (except for like, 3-4 quests? (Intro)). Your choice if you want to use an addon, and your choice if you wish to make it a problem.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    Then you don't do them if you do not wish to set your time into it? Solved! You can't optimize play without putting time into it. And Mission Table is almost optional (except for like, 3-4 quests? (Intro)). Your choice if you want to use an addon, and your choice if you wish to make it a problem.
    I guess, our discussion has been derailed. What I try to explain - is that addons "ruin" intended mission table's design, cuz mission table is intended to be played from phone, but addons make playing from PC much more effective, so nobody needs mobile version of it and at the same time mission table turns into free loot pinata.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  10. #70
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    That wasn't even a joke this time, that apparently is the serious answer.
    I'd say that's a gross underestimation. Player housing would cost FAR MORE than a raid tier. Most NPC housing in WoW is TINY. Very high ceilings on everythings and then not much space. They'd have to do everything from scratch. They do have textures and doodads but the insides are empty, there isn't enough variety in furnishing and I don't think we even have things like drapes you can place as objects instead of textures.
    But the real problem is the UI. Let me say one thing, the UI for housing sucks in most games. For it to work you need to nail precision, automatic alignment (good luck with that in WoW) in any easy to use interface that doesn't require training in CAD.

    It's pretty much a game within a game.

    Ofc the crucial part is, with proper monetization, it's a game within a game that pays for itself in zero time.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd say that's a gross underestimation. Player housing would cost FAR MORE than a raid tier. Most NPC housing in WoW is TINY. Very high ceilings on everythings and then not much space. They'd have to do everything from scratch. They do have textures and doodads but the insides are empty, there isn't enough variety in furnishing and I don't think we even have things like drapes you can place as objects instead of textures.
    But the real problem is the UI. Let me say one thing, the UI for housing sucks in most games. For it to work you need to nail precision, automatic alignment (good luck with that in WoW) in any easy to use interface that doesn't require training in CAD.

    It's pretty much a game within a game.

    Ofc the crucial part is, with proper monetization, it's a game within a game that pays for itself in zero time.
    Oh, I know but this time I felt the answer in the interview truly wasn't a joke, for implementing housing isn't an easy deal.

    Well, that is what I made comment on in a more recent post in the thread. As for WoW, I don't see it going LOTRO/FFXIV, I don't see it going even close to AA or Wildstar, and I definitely don't see it going SWTOR/ESO, and I damn well don't want it going New World.

    As we are not with WoW, we can only see it going a mix unless they can do a big upgrade of the engine. I am worried to say that at the moment, we won't see free placement in WoW housing, but we could have item hooks (LOTRO/SWTOR) which means our freedom of decoration is limited to X amount of placement hooks. The buildings from Garrisons are doable to be scaled for content since we can foresee that if Blizzard ever dropped housing, it would be faction design locked. And then indeed, there is an issue with the lack of selection of assets to be placed as well.

    As for housing UI, just don't go FFXIV with that. AA's is basically just the player UI, and place items and adjust them but again, we're most likely back at LOTRO's hooks and setup which can work on an old engine.

    The only part that Blizzard has ready for deployment without issue is the personal phase system (Garrison's system of multiple locations on one spot) and that can be deployed where they wish. So, as said, it is all within, right now, we can have player meadows and maybe dream about one day seeing a shed on the hill.
    Last edited by Lochton; 2022-09-27 at 08:33 AM.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  12. #72
    Yeah, Wildstar was initially designed around having housing, so all possible ingame assets were available for using in housing. But UI and assets aren't only problems. Blizzard seem to care too much about server storage. That's why they don't like features, that requre "potentially infinite" amount of data to store, and prefer binary on/off things instead.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, Wildstar was initially designed around having housing, so all possible ingame assets were available for using in housing. But UI and assets aren't only problems. Blizzard seem to care too much about server storage. That's why they don't like features, that requre "potentially infinite" amount of data to store, and prefer binary on/off things instead.
    Would love to see some exempels on that.

  14. #74
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    Oh, I know but this time I felt the answer in the interview truly wasn't a joke, for implementing housing isn't an easy deal.

    Well, that is what I made comment on in a more recent post in the thread. As for WoW, I don't see it going LOTRO/FFXIV, I don't see it going even close to AA or Wildstar, and I definitely don't see it going SWTOR/ESO, and I damn well don't want it going New World.

    As we are not with WoW, we can only see it going a mix unless they can do a big upgrade of the engine. I am worried to say that at the moment, we won't see free placement in WoW housing, but we could have item hooks (LOTRO/SWTOR) which means our freedom of decoration is limited to X amount of placement hooks. The buildings from Garrisons are doable to be scaled for content since we can foresee that if Blizzard ever dropped housing, it would be faction design locked. And then indeed, there is an issue with the lack of selection of assets to be placed as well.

    As for housing UI, just don't go FFXIV with that. AA's is basically just the player UI, and place items and adjust them but again, we're most likely back at LOTRO's hooks and setup which can work on an old engine.

    The only part that Blizzard has ready for deployment without issue is the personal phase system (Garrison's system of multiple locations on one spot) and that can be deployed where they wish. So, as said, it is all within, right now, we can have player meadows and maybe dream about one day seeing a shed on the hill.
    I could see something similar to ESO, not with housing being instanced but phased and with people able to be invited to your phase because that's how garrisons worked and by the end they worked well. Plus ESO's style is great for monetization (though I doubt we'd start with a house in every single zone!). It would definitely work amazingly well with their profession revamp and beyond that they would not even need to add direct monetization; just give things crazy gold prices and let the token do its magic. The rest of the ESO systems could stay; achievements unlocking furnshing patterns, a luxury vendor with crazy gold prices, trophies and unique things from raids and dungeons, heavy profession integration. I'd probably fold woodworking into inscription since it makes the most sense. You could even use herbalism to work on your garden or move stonework into mining.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, Wildstar was initially designed around having housing, so all possible ingame assets were available for using in housing. But UI and assets aren't only problems. Blizzard seem to care too much about server storage. That's why they don't like features, that requre "potentially infinite" amount of data to store, and prefer binary on/off things instead.
    Sounds like a very hot take to have. Haven't heard any comments or development posts about Blizzard wanting to avoid putting in things due to server storage.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Would love to see some exempels on that.
    Almost everything in Wow is built around phasing, i.e. just showing/hiding pre-built things, like NPCs and buildings. Nothing is truly dynamic in Wow. And show/hide - is just 1 bit of data. Dunno why it happens, cuz other game developers aren't affected by this problem, but Blizzard constantly struggle with so called DDOS attacks, i.e. high server loads, such as network/DB/storage loads. That's why they don't like big data sets. And housing obviously requires lots of data. At least ID + transformation matrix per item.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Less than 20 years, but "absolute decades"? Hyperbole does not help your argument. Housing has ALSO been rejected since day one by many players, why are you not mentioning them?
    We all agreed 2019-2021 was like, 10 years I thought, given it felt like it.

    And yeah, some people don't like it, but the question was "Is there support?". And there certainly is.

    Plus, it was part of the game plans originally, so in the interest of scrapped stuff like the Dance Studio coming back, my game development nerd self does have interest in that side.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I could see something similar to ESO, not with housing being instanced but phased and with people able to be invited to your phase because that's how garrisons worked and by the end they worked well. Plus ESO's style is great for monetization (though I doubt we'd start with a house in every single zone!). It would definitely work amazingly well with their profession revamp and beyond that they would not even need to add direct monetization; just give things crazy gold prices and let the token do its magic. The rest of the ESO systems could stay; achievements unlocking furnshing patterns, a luxury vendor with crazy gold prices, trophies and unique things from raids and dungeons, heavy profession integration. I'd probably fold woodworking into inscription since it makes the most sense. You could even use herbalism to work on your garden or move stonework into mining.
    I could see it all being run/sold by Goblins and Gnomes and you then select a location of interest (out of a selected option, of course) where you are then dedicated a phased layer to make your housing with the Garrison system to be able to house 40 people (more would be great but unlikely), and then have to deploy a farm setup on your own (which would most likely be modular in the form of planets (we've seen in the Garrison) or dirt plots (we've seen at the farm). As for the housing building, more options and scales would be needed as I guess we don't all want to call the Town Hall or Inn building our choice of housing. (Though, I'd be fine with the Inn building from the Alliance Garrison to then decorate). Of course, the ability to place maybe a max of 3 buildings (House, stables, workshop).

    I would expect items to be, and here comes the part people hated with the Garrison, claimed through many versions of WoW's gameplay:
    World Drops.
    Dungeon Drops.
    Raid Drops.
    PvP Drops.
    Professions (with the addition of maybe creating a carpentry profession and give them the ability to collect wood like they were practicing with WoD).
    Achievements.
    Quest rewards.
    Content Currencies (maybe add items at old vendors to give a reason to go back and work on earning things).
    Reputations.
    Normal Vendors.
    Traveling Vendors.
    Seasonal Vendors.
    Faction Vendors.

    And the dreaded last but not least, the WoW store - and I put this there, for that is where I would want to see out-of-place things, like cross-over items, reference items for other games, etc.

    As for the housing setup:
    Garrison personal phasing system.
    A numbered amount of locations for Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdor, Northrend, Broken Isles, Pandaria, Kul Tiras, and Zandalar.

    The zone's environment is based on the location (Snow, forest, plains, tundra, sand, etc).
    The ability to choose building designs (But we are more than likely to see factions first, RIP Horde)
    The ability to start with a house (from a selection of options).
    The ability to upgrade your area for more features (Opening more spots for extra buildings such as stables, workshops, garages, barns, etc).
    The ability to place a functional farm-like area/Greenhouse.
    The ability to have the surrounding zone decorated for a season of choice (has to be unlocked through seasonal events).
    The ability to (of course) freely place and move items within or outside the buildings of choice.
    The ability to make a selection of outside features like statues (WoD Garrison used achievement statues), Wells, BBQs, seating, bonfires, lights, etc.
    The ability to connect your hearthstone to your house.
    The ability to earn teleport options (You should need an honored/revered reputation or more to get a teleport linked to your housing for various areas)
    The ability to select the weather within this zone.
    The ability to select daytime/nighttime within this zone.
    The ability to invite people (Would be 40, more would be welcomed).
    The ability to create open visiting (either by giving people active permission to come and go with or without you, or make the area FFA up till 40 (Would like more but not likely)).

    Everything in the green is already available. Everything below the green is things that is possible, with work. Everything orange is the ones causing challenges.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  19. #79
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    @Lochton, Nah I meant like in ESO. The houses are prebuilt; specific rooms and spaces and they often exist in the world. When you tried to enter their space, you'd get phased to an empty version if you did not own the house, to your house as you have furnished it if you did and to a friend's house if they own it, they are in a group as the group leader and they've invited you in.

    Letting you actually build the house is a massive undertaking.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-09-27 at 09:24 AM.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Almost everything in Wow is built around phasing, i.e. just showing/hiding pre-built things, like NPCs and buildings. Nothing is truly dynamic in Wow. And show/hide - is just 1 bit of data. Dunno why it happens, cuz other game developers aren't affected by this problem, but Blizzard constantly struggle with so called DDOS attacks, i.e. high server loads, such as network/DB/storage loads. That's why they don't like big data sets. And housing obviously requires lots of data. At least ID + transformation matrix per item.
    While WoW does suffer from DDoS, so do almost all other MMOs which is just about the general load and size of the attack. WoW just experience more DDoS due to well, its obvious position and age. And we can agree on the lack of dynamic use but that is what is the problem with making housing in WoW anyways that can be fixed as well, look at LOTRO, they just use item hooks, just like SWTOR does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Nah I meant like in ESO. The houses are prebuilt; specific rooms and spaces and they often exist in the world. When you tried to enter their space, you'd get phased to an empty version if you did not own the house, to your house as you have furnished it if you did and to a friend's house if they own it, they are in a group as the group leader and they've invited you in.

    Letting you actually build the house is a massive undertaking.
    Not talking about building the house, was talking about selecting a house for the plot in a phase. Not touched ESO in years, so, they run the same system as LOTRO then? Prebuilt housing to claim, do they use item hooks in it or?
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

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