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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Perhaps I'm misremembering Ye Olde Days... but am I the only rogue main who thinks the rotation is way too complicated now?


    Overly Complex Rotation.

    What I loved about Combat rogue was the simplicity; it allowed me to keep track of and react to raid mechanics.

    But now, I'm just spending way too much brain power barely trying to keep up with my rotation.

    What I remember (if memory serves... which it might not):

    • Keep [Slice & Dice] up.
    • Keep [Rupture] up.
    • Use [Adrenaline Rush] on cooldown.

    That was it. The rest was just "Build combo points, then Eviscerate. DONE. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, BOOM. Rinse, repeat.

    Keep one buff running, keep one debuff running, and use the Big Power Button (Adrenaline Rush) when available. We eventually got a 2nd Big Power Button (Killing Spree), but still; easy rotation that can be done without thinking while you're paying attention to the boss. RUN AWAY NOW. RUN IN NOW. etc.



    Then things got a little more complex, but still manageable.

    • [Revealing Strike]: a debuff. Use it when available so your big cooldowns hit harder.
    • [Bandit's Guile], which just meant we learned to sometimes hold back our cooldowns until we got the Big Red light and then let loose for big-mama damage.

    But both are gone now, so whatever.


    But then.. we got [Roll the Bones], which has been horrible (for me) since Day #1.

    A special move that gives up to 5 random buffs, with two being garbage requiring a re-roll. I remember the early days which were HORRID because during a big boss fight when MY JOB was doing dps, I was just standing there re-rolling and re-rolling and re-rolling AND RE-ROLLING AND RE-ROLLING... until I finally got one of the "good" buffs, and I can get back to dps'ing. What an infuriating waste of time!

    Naturally I went back to [Slice & Dice]. You could do that back in those days (they were talents on the same row), and I was relieved to be back to doing plain, simple, dps. And I could get back to watching DBM timers and making sure I don't die like my peers because they were too focused on their rotation.

    But the Rogue class developers were angry; you were playing the game wrong. They wanted you to be a pirate and roll them bones! They put a LOT of work into designing and developing the Bones system and people were chosing to avoid it altogether. Unacceptable! So they made it mandatory.

    So look at my rotation now:



    • Keep [Slice & Dice] up
    • Keep [Roll the Bones] up
    • Keep [Between the Eyes] up.
    • Use [Pistol Shot] when available
    • Use [Adrenaline Rush] on cooldown
    • Use [Killing Spree] on cooldown
    • Use [Shiv] on cooldown
    • Use [Marked for Death] on cooldown
    • Use [Vanish]+[Ambush] on cooldown
    • Use Trinket #1 on cooldown
    • Use Trinket #2 on cooldown (do whatever dance move it requires)
    • use [Covenant ability] on cooldown
    • Use [Racial] on cooldown
    • ...


    What? WHAT?


    (and that's me deliberately chosing NOT gain the [Dreadblades] and [Ghostly Strike] talent to try to KEEP THINGS SIMPLE! I...)

    ... I'm dead. Boss did his 2 second cast and I didn't move in time. Maybe I could've kept track of the timer if I didn't have to manage and coordinate this ridiculous rotation AND the [Roll The Bones] minigame I'm forced to play while I'm playing!



    For a time, it wasn't so bad. [Between the Eyes] was just the Outlaw version of [Kidney Shot], so it kept the same keybind when I switched from Outlaw to Assassination. It was the "stun" button. Simple, huh?

    But then they gave [Kidney Shot] back to Outlaw rogues and turned [Between the Eyes] into a special debuff spell mandating it's own keybind. So now I have [Between the Eyes] AND [Kidney Shot]... and BOTH [Slice & Dice] and [Roll the Bones]. Literally doubled! And [Shiv] thrown in, cause why not?

    Anyone else have this problem?




    Speaking of "Is it just me?" issues...

    Give the Borrrowed Power Back.

    Does anyone else feel it's weird that we have our Shadowlands Expansion abilities in Dragonflight, when we really shouldn't?

    Like everyone else I missed our Legion Artifact "golden dragon" spells when they were lost in BfA, but it still made sense to me. We got a magic sword that had a magic special ability. We don't have it anymore, so the ability is gone. Okay. Makes sense.

    And yet, in Dragonflight we're getting them all back, AND keeping our Covenant abilities? The abilities magically granted to us by death-realm people while we were in the death realm? The magic spells drawing upon the anima power the land and flora/fauna is soaked in? And now back in Azeroth, we can still reach into the realm of death and bring that anima power here to infuse our weapons? Rogue trainers teach that?

    Bad enough that this means I'm stuck with all these keybinds and 10-step rotations to monitor, but how does that make sense from a lore RP standpoint? I realize that I'm one of the dwindling few players who prefer to immerse themselves in the world of Warcraft (the same bunch who didn't like it when the Rogue in the BfA cinematic clip literally went invisible with magic), but how are we supposed to believe that rogue trainers in Azeroth are telling trainee rogues:



    What?

    I mean, I know Gameplay Trumps Lore and always will, but if they're breaking that line anyway, why not just bring back our legendary ring ability? Having a ranged Eviscerate was great! So what if the Legendary Ring is gone? What does it matter? We've broken that wall anyway.

    Or why not [Breath of the Dying] from our Azerite necklace? That was a great! What, a rogue trainer in a shack in Arathi Highlands can't teach you to blast someone with Azerite energy, but can teach you to channel arcane energy from the Shadolands realm of Bastion into your weapon? EXPLAIN THAT.


    But that's just me complaining. I know Borrowed Power is the prominant buzzword fad we've all embraced like the word Agency™, but I confess I was looking forward to be rid of the four Covenant abilities and having one less keybind to deal with (which used to be my On use Trinket button, before I had to let the Covenant ability take that slot over. Now I have that AND two On-Use trinket buttons. AARGH!). And yes, I chose Kyrian, whch means I have to play the anima-charged combo point minigame as well as the [Roll the Bones] mini-game... and GOD I HATE the [Broadside] buff because then the 2nd anima-charged combo point is useless to me! And... er...

    sigh.


    Sorry for the rant.

    But I just want my Combat Rogue back. I want things to be simple again.

    I have five DBM timers to track at any given time that mean life or death and I want to be able to do my rotation again by muscle memory, without having to juggle 5 buffs, 7 debuffs,14 cooldowns, timing them all right AND playing the [Roll the Bones] minigame AND the 4-combo point Anima Charge minigame all throughout. I... I just want to stabby-stab the boss' ankles while he's hitting the tank.


    Am I really too old for this?
    Honestly i never got the point even of a rotation.
    Pre-set stuff in a certain semi-automic order? That is auto-attack's job.
    I am here for the choices, reactive stuff, not to play pseudopiano.

    Not a matter of age honestly, just a matter of "Why would this artificial tedium make the game any better?".

    I think it's partially down to the class and ability bloat; they sort of have to bend themselves and their systems over backwards to make them seem different enough from one another.

    Didn't read all your rant, but i did catch ypur bit about lore: I kinda agree, but what prevents us from taking inspiration from the Shadowlands abilities and adapting them to our native plane?
    I mean sure you have to give an explanation as to how it's done now, but that's not too difficult. For some there might not even be an explanation necessary: Warlocks have always drawn upon all sources of power they could contact in example, and death knights are intimiately familiar with the Shadowlands' power. Both could simply continue using their covenant abilities.

    This stuff is beyond handwaving for me aswell, but they handled it decently well before; warriors' warbreaker lost its void-tinge and was available after Legion.
    And isn't that what borrowed power is for? To playtest new abilities to see if they're a good addition?
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Except it doesn't, because of the times when you don't get [Grand Melee].

    That's the point of buffs being random; they're random.

    That, and [Grand Melee] is the worst of all random buffs and should be replaced asap.



    Because it seems like I'm the one person who knows how to us the biggest damage-dealing cooldown rogues have without getting themselves killed. Takes practice, I guess.



    It.... literally is.

    It has a button and icon and everything. [Marked for Death] is not a passive.



    Are there seriously rogues out there that think Vanish is not to be used offensively?

    If you used Vanish to live when the rest of the raid died, then you chose to do less dps.



    I don't use it.

    I'm, talking about trinkets like Earthbreaker's Impact and Chains of Domination that require you to move about to use them.

    That's what I mean by "dancing."


    Then I won't be able to use them without using those other spells, thus taking control of my gameplay away from me.

    I want to chose when I use spells, not the game. Besides, they have different cooldowns than the other spells, and it's all pointless anyway when [Restless Blades] AND [True Bearing] literally changes your cooldowns with every finishing move you make anyway.
    No need to get snarky, calm down.
    To address your points:
    RtB. Fishing for good RtB has been the identity of Outlaw for how long now, and in BFA it took combo points?
    I'm no chemist but I'm pretty sure dumping combo points into Slice n Dice refresh instead of just fishing RtB combos is bad game play. If you play the game for fun that's likely why we don't see eye to eye. I read logs to break down efficiency and consistency of game play.

    Killing Spree: It's a usable button, however if you're complaining the rotation is complicated and a passive talent option does better damage, why not take it to simplify things? Feel free to link your logs that show you're better than any of the current world top 100 Outlaw players. /s

    Marked for Death: I've now taken the time to read over 20 Mythic boss kill logs from random Outlaw rogues. Unless Warcraftlogs doesn't track the spell ID for this, it's literally never pressed even once. I'd be happy to eat crow if you can provide a high level log where this spell is used.
    Edit: I found out why this spell ID doesn't appear in logs. 100% of top rogues across all fights use Deeper Stratagem. So it's your choice, but this is the second instance of you choosing an inferior on-use talent over a passive one and have bloated your own rotation.

    Vanish: your point is moot, we don't disagree?

    Mini-game trinkets: You are allowed to use mini-game trinkets, which have nothing to do with Outlaw. You have the choice to run Cache, like most rogues do.

    Macroing: This is just my attempt to offer you a solution to button bloat and over complexity of rotation. If you choose to simply complain about the situation and not look to solutions, I can respect your integrity.

    Final note: You're allowed to have fun, you can be right and I encourage you to be willing to accept new ideas and viewpoints that aren't your own, regardless of age. If you choose to play the game your way and not how it's optimally done, good for you. Just accept that has limits.
    Last edited by DazManianDevil; 2022-09-24 at 08:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by verylargeprime View Post
    Blizzard needs to purge the furries from their art and design teams. Dracthyr design has furry hack artist stench all over it.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    This is your fault.

  3. #23
    I'd say: both.

    Outlaw is more complicated than it was before, but also the game became harder and requires more skill to play at the peak performance for each class.

    I agree that "rotation" feels quite twisted.

  4. #24
    Keep [Slice & Dice] up
    Keep [Roll the Bones] up
    Keep [Between the Eyes] up.
    Use [Pistol Shot] when available
    Use [Adrenaline Rush] on cooldown
    Use [Killing Spree] on cooldown
    Use [Shiv] on cooldown
    Use [Marked for Death] on cooldown
    Use [Vanish]+[Ambush] on cooldown
    Use Trinket #1 on cooldown
    Use Trinket #2 on cooldown (do whatever dance move it requires)
    use [Covenant ability] on cooldown
    Use [Racial] on cooldown
    This is not as complicated as youre making it out to be.

    Slice and Dice as always been part of combats rotation, so has Adren since Wrath.

    RtB is 1 button press every 15-30 seconds depending on what you roll. Not hard. And in DF you can ignore the RtB row if you want.

    Between the Eyes is part of the rotation so keeping it up is simple, and with the new talent system in DF you don't even need to take it if you dont want.

    Killing Spree is not used, you use Blade Rush or Dancing Steel, which is a passive buff to Blade Flurry.

    Shiv is only used as Kyrian Rogue when you need 1 combo point.

    Marked for Death is only used if you can reset it often. You can use Vigor or Deeper instead which are passive.

    Vanish into Ambush isn't needed. It's a very small dps increase for Outlaw.

    The only covenant ability that requires any focus is Kyrian. The rest is just fire and forget.

    Trinkets and Racials can be macro'd to an ability.

    With this stuff in mind, Outlaw can be summed up like this.

    Keep up SnD
    Keep up BtE (instead of Rupture)
    Use Adren Rush on cd
    Press Pistol shot when it lights up
    Press RtB every 20 seconds
    Press covenant if not Kyrian
    Use Blade Flurry in AoE situation.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    This is not as complicated as youre making it out to be.

    Slice and Dice as always been part of combats rotation, so has Adren since Wrath.

    RtB is 1 button press every 15-30 seconds depending on what you roll. Not hard. And in DF you can ignore the RtB row if you want.

    Between the Eyes is part of the rotation so keeping it up is simple, and with the new talent system in DF you don't even need to take it if you dont want.

    Killing Spree is not used, you use Blade Rush or Dancing Steel, which is a passive buff to Blade Flurry.

    Shiv is only used as Kyrian Rogue when you need 1 combo point.

    Marked for Death is only used if you can reset it often. You can use Vigor or Deeper instead which are passive.

    Vanish into Ambush isn't needed. It's a very small dps increase for Outlaw.

    The only covenant ability that requires any focus is Kyrian. The rest is just fire and forget.

    Trinkets and Racials can be macro'd to an ability.

    With this stuff in mind, Outlaw can be summed up like this.

    Keep up SnD
    Keep up BtE (instead of Rupture)
    Use Adren Rush on cd
    Press Pistol shot when it lights up
    Press RtB every 20 seconds
    Press covenant if not Kyrian
    Use Blade Flurry in AoE situation.
    Agree with most of what you say but if were honest you will have to take either between the eyes OR roll the bones otherwise you are left with points that can only be added to defensive/utility.
    Also actively going out of your way to not pick those two abilities means picking up every single other active ability which is a far more stressful rotation!

    The left side adds atleast one ability to the rotation and also introduces ambush if you go for the capstone (also makes ambush a proc). The right side is mostly focused on pistol shot and between the eyes and the center is roll the bones. you basically have to pick your poison so to speak.

    In saying that not taking between the eyes is really silly as its just a replacement for rupture and barely makes the rotation more complex. You will probably want to take RtB regardless of picking up its bonuses as its free bonuses for one button press once in a while.

    I agree that he was exaggerating the difference since he included things in the new rotation that either already existed or replaced existing skills, but if you look at the new talent trees its impossible to make a build that focuses on damage that doesnt add a slew of new abilities. The class tree will add normally 2, up to 3 new abilities, you can ignore the capstones and just take passives atleast but idk that seems intentionally bad.

    The new talent tree will add a few more abilities unless you intentionally gimp yourself, and some of the options really dont feel like options. So overall the spec IS a lot more complex no matter how you slice it, and there are a fairly significant number of new skills added.

    Overall i think there needs to be some simpler rotation options or less cluttered options. More choice nodes with passive vs active abilities etc.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Marked for Death
    Does Method count?

    Or are they too much of a "fun, friendly, social guild" so their recommendations don't matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    You have the choice to run Cache
    Be right back; I need to go do an ICC run and choose to loot Invincible.

    Because today I learned that's how World of Warcraft works.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Does Method count?

    Or are they too much of a "fun, friendly, social guild" so their recommendations don't matter?
    That guide specifically says that you should only run Marked for Death as Kyrian, and part of DazManianDevil's advice was to switch from Kyrian to Venth, thus making Marked for Death bad. He also pointed out that all 100 of the top 100 Outlaw rogues were Venth, thus also not taking Marked for Death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Does Method count?

    Or are they too much of a "fun, friendly, social guild" so their recommendations don't matter?
    You need to look more closely. MfD is ONLY used in raiding if you're Kyrian, and Kyrian is currently behind in performance. The highest DPS Covenant in raid is Venthyr, which is why none of the top-ranked logs have Outlaws playing MfD. They all play DS. And by "all" I mean the Top ~300 or so logs on virtually every boss. In fact, across the Top 100 logs for ALL bosses in Sepulcher there are THREE non-Venthyr Outlaws. That's 3 out of 1,100 logs.

    Guides are all well and good, but you need to properly parse the information.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    in DF you can ignore the RtB row if you want.
    Blizzard:
    "We thought about that, and agreed that Outlaw rogues should be socially punished somehow for wrongly choosing not to take [Roll the Bones], which we've spent so many years and development time on. And that's when we came up with [Restless Crew]! So let's just say that the player base will ensure that little problem will... 'correct' itself, very fast ."
    Last edited by thottstation; 2022-09-25 at 03:40 AM.

  10. #30
    They have brought this spec at the end of WoD , Hellfire Citadel. I have stopped playing with outlaw at that time. Roll the bones rng was super annoying, pistol shot procs and global cooldown is not working well in the spec. Other problem is between the eyes especially if you are doing arena. They have put it in to new tier sets of Zereth Mortis but it
    still feels awkward.Also the burst dmg of outlaw is worse than other 2 specs. I'm happy with assa+subtlety so you can simply skip outlaw.

  11. #31
    Outlaw isn't that complicated - but yes, as i'm getting older i find myself not keeping up woth its apm. That, coupled with my habit of spamming keys lead me to errors i realize one second later but then snowballs into a less than optimal parse.

    One thing i'm trying to force myself into is to stop spamming buttons. That makes the whole thing feel a lot slower, at least for me. But after 17 years of bashing 2 it's kinda hard to keep calm during fights, muscle memory is a bitch.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

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