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  1. #1

    Horde Growing old: Outlaw rogue too difficult?

    Perhaps I'm misremembering Ye Olde Days... but am I the only rogue main who thinks the rotation is way too complicated now?


    Overly Complex Rotation.

    What I loved about Combat rogue was the simplicity; it allowed me to keep track of and react to raid mechanics.

    But now, I'm just spending way too much brain power barely trying to keep up with my rotation.

    What I remember (if memory serves... which it might not):

    • Keep [Slice & Dice] up.
    • Keep [Rupture] up.
    • Use [Adrenaline Rush] on cooldown.

    That was it. The rest was just "Build combo points, then Eviscerate. DONE. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, BOOM. Rinse, repeat.

    Keep one buff running, keep one debuff running, and use the Big Power Button (Adrenaline Rush) when available. We eventually got a 2nd Big Power Button (Killing Spree), but still; easy rotation that can be done without thinking while you're paying attention to the boss. RUN AWAY NOW. RUN IN NOW. etc.



    Then things got a little more complex, but still manageable.

    • [Revealing Strike]: a debuff. Use it when available so your big cooldowns hit harder.
    • [Bandit's Guile], which just meant we learned to sometimes hold back our cooldowns until we got the Big Red light and then let loose for big-mama damage.

    But both are gone now, so whatever.


    But then.. we got [Roll the Bones], which has been horrible (for me) since Day #1.

    A special move that gives up to 5 random buffs, with two being garbage requiring a re-roll. I remember the early days which were HORRID because during a big boss fight when MY JOB was doing dps, I was just standing there re-rolling and re-rolling and re-rolling AND RE-ROLLING AND RE-ROLLING... until I finally got one of the "good" buffs, and I can get back to dps'ing. What an infuriating waste of time!

    Naturally I went back to [Slice & Dice]. You could do that back in those days (they were talents on the same row), and I was relieved to be back to doing plain, simple, dps. And I could get back to watching DBM timers and making sure I don't die like my peers because they were too focused on their rotation.

    But the Rogue class developers were angry; you were playing the game wrong. They wanted you to be a pirate and roll them bones! They put a LOT of work into designing and developing the Bones system and people were chosing to avoid it altogether. Unacceptable! So they made it mandatory.

    So look at my rotation now:



    • Keep [Slice & Dice] up
    • Keep [Roll the Bones] up
    • Keep [Between the Eyes] up.
    • Use [Pistol Shot] when available
    • Use [Adrenaline Rush] on cooldown
    • Use [Killing Spree] on cooldown
    • Use [Shiv] on cooldown
    • Use [Marked for Death] on cooldown
    • Use [Vanish]+[Ambush] on cooldown
    • Use Trinket #1 on cooldown
    • Use Trinket #2 on cooldown (do whatever dance move it requires)
    • use [Covenant ability] on cooldown
    • Use [Racial] on cooldown
    • ...


    What? WHAT?


    (and that's me deliberately chosing NOT gain the [Dreadblades] and [Ghostly Strike] talent to try to KEEP THINGS SIMPLE! I...)

    ... I'm dead. Boss did his 2 second cast and I didn't move in time. Maybe I could've kept track of the timer if I didn't have to manage and coordinate this ridiculous rotation AND the [Roll The Bones] minigame I'm forced to play while I'm playing!



    For a time, it wasn't so bad. [Between the Eyes] was just the Outlaw version of [Kidney Shot], so it kept the same keybind when I switched from Outlaw to Assassination. It was the "stun" button. Simple, huh?

    But then they gave [Kidney Shot] back to Outlaw rogues and turned [Between the Eyes] into a special debuff spell mandating it's own keybind. So now I have [Between the Eyes] AND [Kidney Shot]... and BOTH [Slice & Dice] and [Roll the Bones]. Literally doubled! And [Shiv] thrown in, cause why not?

    Anyone else have this problem?




    Speaking of "Is it just me?" issues...

    Give the Borrrowed Power Back.

    Does anyone else feel it's weird that we have our Shadowlands Expansion abilities in Dragonflight, when we really shouldn't?

    Like everyone else I missed our Legion Artifact "golden dragon" spells when they were lost in BfA, but it still made sense to me. We got a magic sword that had a magic special ability. We don't have it anymore, so the ability is gone. Okay. Makes sense.

    And yet, in Dragonflight we're getting them all back, AND keeping our Covenant abilities? The abilities magically granted to us by death-realm people while we were in the death realm? The magic spells drawing upon the anima power the land and flora/fauna is soaked in? And now back in Azeroth, we can still reach into the realm of death and bring that anima power here to infuse our weapons? Rogue trainers teach that?

    Bad enough that this means I'm stuck with all these keybinds and 10-step rotations to monitor, but how does that make sense from a lore RP standpoint? I realize that I'm one of the dwindling few players who prefer to immerse themselves in the world of Warcraft (the same bunch who didn't like it when the Rogue in the BfA cinematic clip literally went invisible with magic), but how are we supposed to believe that rogue trainers in Azeroth are telling trainee rogues:

    "Okay, we've taught you how to move quietly and stab people and run away without being seen. Now we're teaching you to draw upon the magic anima of the afterlife realm of Ardenweald to infect the victim's blood. Don't worry, we don't have to introduce you to the loas and spirits that dwell there; it's a pre-existing agreement that The Uncrowned negiotiated to apply to all assassins... but when you pass the Druid Trainer down the hall, be courteous. Show respect."
    What?

    I mean, I know Gameplay Trumps Lore and always will, but if they're breaking that line anyway, why not just bring back our legendary ring ability? Having a ranged Eviscerate was great! So what if the Legendary Ring is gone? What does it matter? We've broken that wall anyway.

    Or why not [Breath of the Dying] from our Azerite necklace? That was a great! What, a rogue trainer in a shack in Arathi Highlands can't teach you to blast someone with Azerite energy, but can teach you to channel arcane energy from the Shadolands realm of Bastion into your weapon? EXPLAIN THAT.


    But that's just me complaining. I know Borrowed Power is the prominant buzzword fad we've all embraced like the word Agency™, but I confess I was looking forward to be rid of the four Covenant abilities and having one less keybind to deal with (which used to be my On use Trinket button, before I had to let the Covenant ability take that slot over. Now I have that AND two On-Use trinket buttons. AARGH!). And yes, I chose Kyrian, whch means I have to play the anima-charged combo point minigame as well as the [Roll the Bones] mini-game... and GOD I HATE the [Broadside] buff because then the 2nd anima-charged combo point is useless to me! And... er...

    sigh.


    Sorry for the rant.

    But I just want my Combat Rogue back. I want things to be simple again.

    I have five DBM timers to track at any given time that mean life or death and I want to be able to do my rotation again by muscle memory, without having to juggle 5 buffs, 7 debuffs,14 cooldowns, timing them all right AND playing the [Roll the Bones] minigame AND the 4-combo point Anima Charge minigame all throughout. I... I just want to stabby-stab the boss' ankles while he's hitting the tank.


    Am I really too old for this?
    Last edited by thottstation; 2022-09-23 at 11:19 AM.

  2. #2
    Difference between combat and outlaw is basically pace, yes you have a couple of things to keep up, but combat had about 20cp/m and outlaw is probably closer to 40cp/m. If the only thing we were doing anymore is pressing evis, you would be doing it about 8 times a minute and nothing else. Which sounds dreadful.

  3. #3
    Maybe not playing kyrian would make things more simple for you?
    Writes insightful, well-mannered posts in the Community Council.

  4. #4
    I have to agree with you OP, but also we're getting old - yes.

    What I'll advise you is to swap to vent and at least it's a little bit better, but still really overwhelming. Outlaw is the highest APM class in the game as of right now.

    TBH what will be a good fix for me is to bring back the old BF back. You toggle is ON, and it stays ON until you turn it off. Because as of now it's pretty much the same, just we have to loose GCD to activate it every 14 seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misume View Post
    The day the Mythic Progression Thread isn't 95% trolling is the day Prime comes back to power.

  5. #5
    Honestly, outlaw seems super simple to me, and I don't consider myself particularly great. I find sub way harder.

    Worst part of outlaw for me is keeping roll the bones up. You can get a weakaura to track it better. Once you get that down it's basically sinister strike - dispatch (aka evis) when combo points are full, and fire the pistol when it glows. The set bonus should keep between the eyes up for most of the fight, especially with the bird whistle legendary.

    Not sure what your talents are, but I haven't seen anyone use killing spree in years. Get blade flurry, or blade rush for pvp. I think a lot of the guide sites haven't updated recently, just look for a good rogue in game and copy their talents.

    As for borrowed power...it still exists. The bleed proc fist weapon, the sylvanas dagger, and various trinkets all add up to about 20% of my total damage on a boss fight.
    Last edited by phattsao; 2022-09-23 at 12:48 PM.

  6. #6
    For me Outlaw has two problems, which in combination make me feel old too:

    - insane APM, about 70 I think. Hello carpal tunnel syndrome my old friend.
    - due to restless blades you lose a lot of dps you'll never get back if you don't constantly spend combo points. You are punished much more than other specs if you go do some mechanic for a couple seconds.

    Outlaw isn't hard, but I'd agree it's a spec for younger whippersnappers

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktperry View Post
    I'll advise you is to swap to vent
    I uninstalled that years ago, along with TeamSpeak and Mumble.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ktperry View Post
    bring back the old BF back. You toggle is ON, and it stays ON
    I had such fun on Twin Orgron in Highmaul. Good times.

  8. #8
    This is not the Combat Rogue of old, where you could just go spam spam spam.

    Current Outlaw is arguably one of the most APM-intensive specs of all time, and quite complex in its decision-making. In 5-man content especially, playing an Outlaw Rogue well requires a lot of awareness, quick responses, and constant - and I mean CONSTANT - inputs. This is not a chill spec. It's very intense.

    The good thing about that is it may not just be you getting older; even spring chickens struggle with the demands of this spec. Particularly at the high level, where it's very mentally draining as well as physically demanding.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by phattsao View Post
    I haven't seen anyone use killing spree in years
    One of my golden memories was flying up to people afk'ing mid-air and 1-shotting them with Killing Spree.

    Wonderful days. I don't think I'll ever give up on Killing Spree. Top Gun Rogue 4 life.

    Besides... the new animation is nice.

    https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PhonyUnsig...ika-mobile.mp4

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    One of my golden memories was flying up to people afk'ing mid-air and 1-shotting them with Killing Spree.

    Wonderful days. I don't think I'll ever give up on Killing Spree. Top Gun Rogue 4 life.

    Besides... the new animation is nice.

    https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PhonyUnsig...ika-mobile.mp4
    That does look awesome.

    But here's the EZ mode spec for outlaw IMO:

    Bird Whistle Legendary

    1- Weaponmaster
    2- Acrobatic
    3- Deeper strat
    4- elusive/cheat death
    5- doesn't really matter
    6- alacrity
    7- dancing steel

    Not saying this is the absolute best spec, but it's certainly the easiest.

    Be venthyr, it might be slightly worse than kyrian but is a lot easier to manage. Flagellation and Adren rush will lineup, so you pop both on cooldown.
    Make sure you have the soulbinds lashing scars, triple threat, count the odds/sleight of hand. You don't need to use shiv at all.

    For weapons, get the cruciform veinripper mainhand and the edge of night dagger offhand. Yeah, dagger, the proc is so good that it will outperform pretty much any other offhand. You can buy both with dinars you can get from LFR. This will give you an extra 10% damage from procs alone. Add in a couple trinkets, and you'll be doing a lot better on the charts.

    With the set bonus, you'll only need to use between the eyes at the start when you burst, the legendary and 4-piece bonus will pretty much keep it up on the boss after that.

    Get mods/weakauras to track roll the bones and blade flurry.

    I should also qualify that this is mostly for raiding, I don't do a ton of mythic +. If that's your bag, this might not be as good.

  11. #11
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    This is worrying, aren't we supposed to get better as we practice something? People training their brain can retain a sharp mind as they age.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    This is worrying, aren't we supposed to get better as we practice something? People training their brain can retain a sharp mind as they age.
    So that's why the best sc2 and lol players are in their 40s and beyond.
    Oh wait..

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    One of my golden memories was flying up to people afk'ing mid-air and 1-shotting them with Killing Spree.

    Wonderful days. I don't think I'll ever give up on Killing Spree. Top Gun Rogue 4 life.

    Besides... the new animation is nice.

    https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PhonyUnsig...ika-mobile.mp4
    have you tried just using hekili? it's usually pretty good for melee specs in particular.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    -snip-[/I]
    I could be wrong but from what I'm seeing, you're complicating the rotation needlessly.
    1) Slice n Dice stays up passively with Roll the bones buff (Grand Melee).
    2) Yes, spinning the plate of Roll the Bones can be very annoying.
    3) Between the Eyes is part of your 4 button rotation.
    4) Pistol shot is part of said 4 button rotation.
    5) Adrenaline rush is a CD, yup best if used routinely.
    6) One guy plays Killing spree, 28% Blade rush and 71% play Dancing steel.
    7) No one presses Shiv in their rotation, needless complication.
    8) Marked for death isn't pressed.
    9) Vanish + Ambush is annoying but fancy.
    10) Trinkets #1 and #2. I advise you to stop using Music sheet, it's garbage.
    Get a good trinket and macro it into an existing cooldown to reduce button bloat, popular ones are fusion amp, cache, hateful chain and memory of past sins.
    11) Cov ability/Racial. Again, macro these into other buttons if you can. Orc racial is 2mins and off the GCD
    I grabbed a random kill log for Mythic Guardian of the First Ones (because it's as close to a tank n spank as you're gonna see this week)
    100/100 top US/EU players are Venthyr for this fight.
    The rotation is 4 buttons with CDs. This player only presses Slice n Dice one time yet has 98% uptime due to Grand Melee.
    This person has Flag macroed with their 1.5min trinket.
    Source: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=timeline
    https://wowanalyzer.com/report/KX79L...ard/statistics
    Take the above source with a grain of salt. It's a 3 and a half minute kill on a very easy, simple boss and this rogue is 303ilvl which is decently high.

    I'm not a rogue main but this really doesn't look that bad, it's a 4button rotation with a few CDs and Roll the Bones is the only plate you spin. I consider Unholy easy and it's worse than this.
    Not trying to come across as rude or a dick, I hope what I've linked here can be used and provide insight into how to streamline and simplify your play and hopefully bring you some stress relief.
    Cheers!
    Last edited by DazManianDevil; 2022-09-23 at 05:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by verylargeprime View Post
    Blizzard needs to purge the furries from their art and design teams. Dracthyr design has furry hack artist stench all over it.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    This is your fault.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Slice n Dice stays up passively with Roll the bones buff (Grand Melee).
    Except it doesn't, because of the times when you don't get [Grand Melee].

    That's the point of buffs being random; they're random.

    That, and [Grand Melee] is the worst of all random buffs and should be replaced asap.


    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    One guy plays Killing spree
    Because it seems like I'm the one person who knows how to us the biggest damage-dealing cooldown rogues have without getting themselves killed. Takes practice, I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Marked for death isn't pressed.
    It.... literally is.

    It has a button and icon and everything. [Marked for Death] is not a passive.


    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Vanish + Ambush is annoying but fancy.
    Are there seriously rogues out there that think Vanish is not to be used offensively?

    If you used Vanish to live when the rest of the raid died, then you chose to do less dps.


    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    I advise you to stop using Music sheet, it's garbage.
    I don't use it.

    I'm, talking about trinkets like Earthbreaker's Impact and Chains of Domination that require you to move about to use them.

    That's what I mean by "dancing."

    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Cov ability/Racial. Again, macro these into other buttons
    Then I won't be able to use them without using those other spells, thus taking control of my gameplay away from me.

    I want to chose when I use spells, not the game. Besides, they have different cooldowns than the other spells, and it's all pointless anyway when [Restless Blades] AND [True Bearing] literally changes your cooldowns with every finishing move you make anyway.
    Last edited by thottstation; 2022-09-24 at 10:56 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Difference between combat and outlaw is basically pace, yes you have a couple of things to keep up, but combat had about 20cp/m and outlaw is probably closer to 40cp/m. If the only thing we were doing anymore is pressing evis, you would be doing it about 8 times a minute and nothing else. Which sounds dreadful.
    to be honest, i LOVE maximum fast paced specs, like Fury, Outlaw, Prot Warri/Pally, or maybe Enhancement. Everything that has an APM above 60 or 65 is great to me. But at the same time, i am in the same boat as the OP. Outlaw is too distracting to me.

    So, what you call dreadful is something i would like. Press buttons as fast as possible, like a squirrel on cocaine, while just playing whack-a-mole and watching a few things like CDs or Dots here and there.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2022-09-24 at 11:21 AM.

  17. #17
    Remove Slice and Dice. The worst rogue spell ever.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktperry View Post
    I have to agree with you OP, but also we're getting old - yes.

    What I'll advise you is to swap to vent and at least it's a little bit better, but still really overwhelming. Outlaw is the highest APM class in the game as of right now.

    TBH what will be a good fix for me is to bring back the old BF back. You toggle is ON, and it stays ON until you turn it off. Because as of now it's pretty much the same, just we have to loose GCD to activate it every 14 seconds.
    Fury has 4 APM more. See here: https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T28_Raid.html
    (You have to click „Additional raid information“)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    Remove Slice and Dice. The worst rogue spell ever.
    For Sub and Assa? 100% agree. That spell has NO business there! For Outlaw it’s exact the opposite to me: Remove that shitty abnormity called Roll The Bones, but keep SnD.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Except it doesn't, because of the times when you don't get [Grand Melee].

    That's the point of buffs being random; they're random.

    That, and [Grand Melee] is the worst of all random buffs and should be replaced asap.



    Because it seems like I'm the one person who knows how to us the biggest damage-dealing cooldown rogues have without getting themselves killed. Takes practice, I guess.



    It.... literally is.

    It has a button and icon and everything. [Marked for Death] is not a passive.



    Are there seriously rogues out there that think Vanish is not to be used offensively?

    If you used Vanish to live when the rest of the raid died, then you chose to do less dps.



    I don't use it.

    I'm, talking about trinkets like Earthbreaker's Impact and Chains of Domination that require you to move about to use them.

    That's what I mean by "dancing."


    Then I won't be able to use them without using those other spells, thus taking control of my gameplay away from me.

    I want to chose when I use spells, not the game. Besides, they have different cooldowns than the other spells, and it's all pointless anyway when [Restless Blades] AND [True Bearing] literally changes your cooldowns with every finishing move you make anyway.
    in my opinion designers have to be stoned, to even implement something that ends up with DPS output based on RNG, in the first place. how stupid is this? „Oh this time i topped the meters because RNG RtB god liked me. But next time i maybe suck.“ It’s the most stupid thing you can do in a game like WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    I could be wrong but from what I'm seeing, you're complicating the rotation needlessly.
    1) Slice n Dice stays up passively with Roll the bones buff (Grand Melee).
    2) Yes, spinning the plate of Roll the Bones can be very annoying.
    3) Between the Eyes is part of your 4 button rotation.
    4) Pistol shot is part of said 4 button rotation.
    5) Adrenaline rush is a CD, yup best if used routinely.
    6) One guy plays Killing spree, 28% Blade rush and 71% play Dancing steel.
    7) No one presses Shiv in their rotation, needless complication.
    8) Marked for death isn't pressed.
    9) Vanish + Ambush is annoying but fancy.
    10) Trinkets #1 and #2. I advise you to stop using Music sheet, it's garbage.
    Get a good trinket and macro it into an existing cooldown to reduce button bloat, popular ones are fusion amp, cache, hateful chain and memory of past sins.
    11) Cov ability/Racial. Again, macro these into other buttons if you can. Orc racial is 2mins and off the GCD
    I grabbed a random kill log for Mythic Guardian of the First Ones (because it's as close to a tank n spank as you're gonna see this week)
    100/100 top US/EU players are Venthyr for this fight.
    The rotation is 4 buttons with CDs. This player only presses Slice n Dice one time yet has 98% uptime due to Grand Melee.
    This person has Flag macroed with their 1.5min trinket.
    Source: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=timeline
    https://wowanalyzer.com/report/KX79L...ard/statistics
    Take the above source with a grain of salt. It's a 3 and a half minute kill on a very easy, simple boss and this rogue is 303ilvl which is decently high.

    I'm not a rogue main but this really doesn't look that bad, it's a 4button rotation with a few CDs and Roll the Bones is the only plate you spin. I consider Unholy easy and it's worse than this.
    Not trying to come across as rude or a dick, I hope what I've linked here can be used and provide insight into how to streamline and simplify your play and hopefully bring you some stress relief.
    Cheers!
    in my opinion the WHOLE outlaw spec, like it is, would be fine, if they just plain and simple remove RtB from the game. Just remove it. Done.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2022-09-24 at 11:26 AM.

  19. #19
    For what it's worth, I've been playing a build without RtB on PTR and it's much more fun. I agree that RtB is cancer, one of the worst abilities ever added to the game, but it's pretty fun and straight forward without it, albeit still faster paced than most specs.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    to be honest, i LOVE maximum fast paced specs, like Fury, Outlaw, Prot Warri/Pally, or maybe Enhancement. Everything that has an APM above 60 or 65 is great to me. But at the same time, i am in the same boat as the OP. Outlaw is too distracting to me.

    So, what you call dreadful is something i would like. Press buttons as fast as possible, like a squirrel on cocaine, while just playing whack-a-mole and watching a few things like CDs or Dots here and there.
    I love fast specs as well, but I don't want to press the same 2 buttons off ofcool down. That being said I'm basing much of my outlaw opinion off of Legion and BFA, I didn't touch it in SL (6 years of no class dev time, I dropped Rogue for Shaman). I thought Outlaw was fine, but they've been making the spec easier since Legion. I still think it's pretty alright but Legion kind of nailed classes in some ways. When they lost buttons, advanced interactions between existing buttons were added which I really prefer playing.

    I think APM for APMs sake is boring, it's not like APM is making the class more complex.

    Although I strangely enjoy RtB, it's frustrating getting 4 or 5 1 rolls in a row but then you get a fight where you 6/5 roll on opener and get a 3 or 4 on the next roll and absolutely crush with it. Adjusting your rotation around cool down reduction or the melee damage roll is fun too. I know the spec doesn't play like this anymore but RTB wasn't terrible design, it just needed a "cheat the roll" button so you could get a 3 stack+ on demand.

    But everyone cried and we lost an interesting mechanic for a boring version of it because Blizz is afraid to tell players "maybe xyz spec isn't for you" anymore.

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