1. #1

    DeSantis Rewrites History: US Revolution Was First Time Slavery was Questioned

    https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/re...ools-rcna49157

    A clip of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis whitewashing the history of chattel slavery, abolition and the American Revolution has gone viral online in recent days, with many people dunking on DeSantis for his idiocy.

    But this is no laughing matter.

    Speaking at an event Tuesday, the Republican tried to downplay a lawsuit over his oppressive "Stop WOKE Act," a law designed to severely restrict educators’ ability to teach about social ills. DeSantis has railed against teachers in his state who have sought to educate their students on truths about racial, gender and sexuality-based inequality. But his rambling, ahistorical diatribe showed why he’s not to be taken seriously on those matters.

    In his remarks, he maligned “The 1619 Project,” a New York Times multimedia effort focused on the roots of slavery in virtually all aspects of American life. White Republicans — led by former President Donald Trump — have denounced the project as “un-American” since its debut in 2019. And they have decried academic focuses on social inequality, like critical race theory, just the same.

    The Times’ project is a “CRT version of history,” DeSantis claimed. He added, “They want to teach our kids that the American Revolution was fought to protect slavery,” which he said, wrongly, was false. (We’ll get to that in a moment.)

    But DeSantis went even further, claiming that America’s revolution against Britain was solely responsible for the movement to abolish slavery. “No one had questioned it [slavery] before we decided as Americans that we are endowed by our creator with unalienable rights and that we are all created equal,” DeSantis said.

    He delivered those demonstrably false remarks with all the confidence of a seventh-grade student bluffing their way through a class presentation.

    Twitter link to clip :https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/s...88502409043970

    Everything you just heard is white supremacist garbage that’s quite easy to dispel, which makes the fact that DeSantis is spouting it all the more sinister. The enslaved people being raped, beaten and worked to death undoubtedly questioned slavery at the time. Narratives from people enslaved in America before the Revolutionary War, such as the abolitionist Olaudah Equiano, prove this.

    And the offensively stupid claim that America’s war against Britain was premised on freedom and justice for all has been refuted by historians for years.

    George Horne, for example, wrote a book called “The Counter-Revolution of 1776: Slave Resistance and the Origins of the United States of America,” which focuses on how American colonizers’ desire to uphold slavery was a major motivation to fight against Britain, which officially outlawed the practice. Here’s an excerpt from a “Democracy Now” interview the historian gave in 2014:

    We should understand that July 4th, 1776, in many ways, represents a counterrevolution. That is to say that what helped to prompt July 4th, 1776, was the perception amongst European settlers on the North American mainland that London was moving rapidly towards abolition. This perception was prompted by Somerset’s case, a case decided in London in June 1772 which seemed to suggest that abolition, which not only was going to be ratified in London itself, was going to cross the Atlantic and basically sweep through the mainland, thereby jeopardizing numerous fortunes, not only based upon slavery, but the slave trade.
    The 1772 case Horne referred to is the London-based case that found chattel slavery was not supported by British common law, a finding that British-run colonies in would-be America viewed as a threat to their livelihood. To put a finer point on this: Ron DeSantis is an ahistorical oaf. He deserves any mockery he receives for this particular diatribe, but let’s not pretend he was merely mistaken here.

    As our fearless “ReidOut” host Joy Reid noted, DeSantis, who is a graduate of Yale and Harvard, has benefited from a ritzy education. His ignorance is willful. And if he has his way, that ignorance will consume Florida’s education system.
    As MSNBC notes, this is trivially easy to debunk.

    This is the intentionally dishonest, bad-faith, historical revisionism that leaves a generation dumber and worse off as they won't benefit in learning from past mistakes in history.

    Now he's not an idiot! Guy went to Ivy League schools! So this seems to be a calculated and intentional attempt to rewrite history to ignore the dark times of the US in the past and try to frame the US, essentially, historically good from start to finish.

    Which is weird, because that would be a very progressive move for the era, one I don't think he'd want to attribute to the founding fathers because being progressive is "bad".

    Either way, just more reminders that Republicans seem to love lying and making shit up, and are actively trying to Make America Dumb Again.

  2. #2
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    What a fucking idiot.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Either way, just more reminders that Republicans seem to love lying and making shit up, and are actively trying to Make America Dumb Again.
    If people don't learn history, they might not learn that progress is good, actually.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
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  4. #4
    In High school US History students in the US (esp students in Virginia) should be required to read both "Forced Founders" by Woody Holton and "American Slavery, American Freedom: the Ordeal of Colonial Virginia" by Edmund Morgan.

    But DeSantis is just a POS
    - Lars

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/re...ools-rcna49157



    As MSNBC notes, this is trivially easy to debunk.

    This is the intentionally dishonest, bad-faith, historical revisionism that leaves a generation dumber and worse off as they won't benefit in learning from past mistakes in history.

    Now he's not an idiot! Guy went to Ivy League schools! So this seems to be a calculated and intentional attempt to rewrite history to ignore the dark times of the US in the past and try to frame the US, essentially, historically good from start to finish.

    Which is weird, because that would be a very progressive move for the era, one I don't think he'd want to attribute to the founding fathers because being progressive is "bad".

    Either way, just more reminders that Republicans seem to love lying and making shit up, and are actively trying to Make America Dumb Again.
    Dumb people are easier to lie to and far less likely to engage in critical thinking. Critical thinking being a major component of skepticism, of course.

    That said, I'm not really in line with using the opinions of (former) slaves on whether or not a society agrees with slavery or not. Slaves think that slavery is bullshit? *No shit, Sherlock.* That really stood out to me as an incredibly stupid line of reasoning. Has there *ever* been a real-world case where slaves *didn't* want their freedom? I can think of fictional versions (typically tied in with dystopian concepts such that they're brainwashed into thinking their state in life is generally alright), but I can't think of any real-world examples. It seems like the enslaved pretty universally think being enslaved sucks.

    It's better to stick to the material facts, which are that abolitionist thinking and movements existed long before the War for Independence, and while "protection of slavery" was not a primary focus of the reasons for the war, it *was* a relevant concern, particularly for the southern states who had a much higher reliance on slave labor. Oddly enough, though, loyalist/royalist sentiment was strongest in the south (maybe simply because the southern colonies were the newest ones, generally.)

    It isn't a coincidence that Republicans lead the charge against effective public education. They *need* American voters to remain uneducated and ignorant. Intelligent, educated voters tend to think poorly of authoritarianism.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Dumb people are easier to lie to and far less likely to engage in critical thinking. Critical thinking being a major component of skepticism, of course.

    That said, I'm not really in line with using the opinions of (former) slaves on whether or not a society agrees with slavery or not. Slaves think that slavery is bullshit? *No shit, Sherlock.* That really stood out to me as an incredibly stupid line of reasoning. Has there *ever* been a real-world case where slaves *didn't* want their freedom? I can think of fictional versions (typically tied in with dystopian concepts such that they're brainwashed into thinking their state in life is generally alright), but I can't think of any real-world examples. It seems like the enslaved pretty universally think being enslaved sucks.

    It's better to stick to the material facts, which are that abolitionist thinking and movements existed long before the War for Independence, and while "protection of slavery" was not a primary focus of the reasons for the war, it *was* a relevant concern, particularly for the southern states who had a much higher reliance on slave labor. Oddly enough, though, loyalist/royalist sentiment was strongest in the south (maybe simply because the southern colonies were the newest ones, generally.)

    It isn't a coincidence that Republicans lead the charge against effective public education. They *need* American voters to remain uneducated and ignorant. Intelligent, educated voters tend to think poorly of authoritarianism.
    In the ancient world, especially if you had a rare (trade)skill, that could be an option - because (depending on society, speaking mostly about mediterranean) the master was responsible for your well being. Depending on your station in life, fending for yourself, or being enslaved and provided...

    Its important to understand that there are other forms of slavery than chattel slavery - in a given society multiple forms can exist at the same time - take ancient Rome - a miner, a gladiator or a rhetorics teacher can all be slaves and have vastly different life circumstances and even prestige.

    Speaking of the US context though - mostly chattel slavery which most people wont find acceptable, but never underestimate the ability of humans to accept their conditions. Not saying there were people being happy about their status, but maybe content i can imagine.

  7. #7
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    This is a Governor who knows literally nothing about the history of this country and its constitution. Just ignoring the whole fact that the 3/5ths compromise was literally written into the constitution, and that the fucking 13th Amendment explicitly states that slavery is an acceptable punishment for a crime.

    Why do people vote for such ignorance?
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  8. #8
    Some of the posts so far a questioning DeSantis ignorance on history. This is not ignorance, but teachings of fascism. He is clearly trying to whitewash US history of any responsibility of the "white" European being admonished or no responsibility of its past. This right here is trying to set some false deity worship of our Revolutionary fathers setting this ideal America that has worked for everybody. If you have not gotten ahead it's your fault, not the focused oppression of a said group.

    The fascism here is coming from the wiping of books, teaching history and re-education of people. Actually the dumbing down of people. Look into the conservative think tanks and having a less educated population, Pertaining to college specifically, but they see now that high schools are the next step.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Some of the posts so far a questioning DeSantis ignorance on history. This is not ignorance, but teachings of fascism. He is clearly trying to whitewash US history of any responsibility of the "white" European being admonished or no responsibility of its past. This right here is trying to set some false deity worship of our Revolutionary fathers setting this ideal America that has worked for everybody. If you have not gotten ahead it's your fault, not the focused oppression of a said group.

    The fascism here is coming from the wiping of books, teaching history and re-education of people. Actually the dumbing down of people. Look into the conservative think tanks and having a less educated population, Pertaining to college specifically, but they see now that high schools are the next step.
    yeah I was gonna say, it's not him being an idiot it's just him lying. 'Cleaning up' the image of the founding fathers makes it easier for them to lie about other shit (namely in the realm of topics where CRT would be concerned) and simultaneously absolve them of any guilt while also being able to hand-wave concerns about modern social issues.

    It's an incredibly old tactic by these sorts of fuckheads and it's concerning effective.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans D Luniz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    This is a Governor who knows literally nothing about the history of this country and its constitution. Just ignoring the whole fact that the 3/5ths compromise was literally written into the constitution, and that the fucking 13th Amendment explicitly states that slavery is an acceptable punishment for a crime.

    Why do people vote for such ignorance?
    Cause they agree with it, but are to cowardly to say it themselves (but will still claim they are being censored)
    So they can support people like DeSantis, and if pressed claim "I supported his OTHER policies"
    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  11. #11
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    In the ancient world, especially if you had a rare (trade)skill, that could be an option - because (depending on society, speaking mostly about mediterranean) the master was responsible for your well being. Depending on your station in life, fending for yourself, or being enslaved and provided...

    Its important to understand that there are other forms of slavery than chattel slavery - in a given society multiple forms can exist at the same time - take ancient Rome - a miner, a gladiator or a rhetorics teacher can all be slaves and have vastly different life circumstances and even prestige.

    Speaking of the US context though - mostly chattel slavery which most people wont find acceptable, but never underestimate the ability of humans to accept their conditions. Not saying there were people being happy about their status, but maybe content i can imagine.
    People risked their life knowing full well the consequences if they were caught to escape slavery because they knew being dead was better than being a slave, and people risked their lives to help them. And they did so for hundreds of years. Families would be ripped apart on a whim never to see one another again, and slavers could and did kill, torture and rape their slaves with absolutely no oversight. No amount of placation of "well some of it wasn't that bad" or the ever-so-popular "they were better off slaves than they'd be in Africa" changes any of that.

    Slavery wasn't just a "cold, passionless economic function," it served a very pointed and intentional goal of creating a racial division in the United States, the insidious shadow of which still looms over the US to this day. And that shadow will remain so long as generations are being taught that slavery was anything but exactly what it was: a brutal, targeted form of human subjugation that the US was complicit in for far, far too long, and even when the fight to end it was at its fullest pitch, there were still those who sought to preserve it.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    What a fucking idiot.
    The republican party loves the racism, it's why he is doing things like busing of migrants. He isn't an idiot just a man who wants to be president and knows his audience.

  13. #13
    DeSantis makes a whole lot of ignorant comments, but this one might make his top 10. England did not abolish slavery until 1833, ~60 years AFTER the US revolution. Yet his inane argument is that the US revolted from England to continue slavery because England had abolished it? He was only over a half century off in his facts lol. Slavery was very much legal in England at the time of the revolution, so this comment shows he didn't pay a whole lot of attention in even jr. high history class.

    The revolution was primarily around freedom of religion and to self-govern things like taxes. Slavery in 1776 was a big part of the economy of both countries at the time and wasn't even part of the discussion yet. 11.2 million Africans were taken to the Americas against their will between 1502 and 1866. Of that 11.2 million, only 366,000 went to the US. The other 10.8 million Africans were taken by England, Spain, and Portugal to plantations in South America and the Caribbean. Just for some perspective on how wrong the comments by DeSantis were about England's stance in 1776 on slavery. England was far more involved in slavery than the US at the time of the revolution and until later in the 1800's when abolished, not discouraging it.

    The attempted rewriting of history by authoritarians is scary though and something we're seeing more of. Russia has been doing it. Other authoritarian leaders in the region are also doing it. And DeSantis is a wanna-be authoritarian but trying it. It goes back to the core of authoritarian rule, which is controlling people by telling them don't believe what educators/news/books/factual history etc. tell you, your dear leader is the only source of true information.

  14. #14
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Historians Trash DeSantis' Understanding of U.S. History

    Reacting to DeSantis's comments Professor Karin Wulf, who specializes in eighteenth-century British America at Brown University, said: "On at least three levels this is wrong."
    HAHAHAHAHAHA (deep breath) MUAHAHAHAHAHA

    "The idea of natural rights didn't originate with the American revolutionaries; they were reflecting ideas that were widespread among political thinkers, perhaps most obviously the 17th century English political philosopher John Locke. The United States as a government did not act against slavery in any form until 1807 (prohibition of the Atlantic slave trade) and acted in key ways to protect it right up to the Civil War (the fugitive slave act)."

    "Most egregiously, the idea that 'no one' questioned slavery erases enslaved people themselves who were active in resisting slavery both as individuals and collectively and in refusing the logic and legality of their enslavement."

    DeSantis, shown here being asked a sixth-grade civics question

    Seth Rockman, an associate professor at Brown who has written extensively about the economics of slavery, accused DeSantis of ignoring Black Americans as part of a strategy linked with white nationalism.

    He commented: "DeSantis clearly has not done the reading for class, but his error here goes beyond ignorance of the last several decades of research on anti-slavery thinking and organizing over the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. What DeSantis does here is more pernicious because it places Black people outside the category of 'we' and 'Americans'— a move that can only be understood as part of DeSantis's strategy to ride white nationalism to higher office."

    "This statement is yet another deliberate DeSantis move to 'trigger' or 'own the libs,' but let's think about the implications of DeSantis's statement here: When DeSantis says 'no one' he pretends that enslaved African and African-descended people aren't worth taking seriously as people whose opinions about slavery might matter, then or now."

    "The slaves who staged massive revolts in New York, South Carolina, and other mainland colonies throughout the colonial era, were they not questioning slavery?"

    Professor Sarah Pearsall, who has worked extensively on the "colonial and revolutionary periods" of U.S. history, also disagreed.

    She said: "The claim by DeSantis is completely incorrect. Plenty of people had questioned slavery before the American Revolution. Of course enslaved people had resisted the system since its inception, but there were also tracts by colonists, such as Samuel Sewell's The Selling of Joseph, published in Boston in 1700, which argued that the institution was unacceptable."

    "Early abolitionists on both sides of the Atlantic included Quakers; their efforts in some cases predated the outbreak of the American Revolution. Since DeSantis also states of history that 'It's gotta be accurate,' he might want to practice what he preaches."
    Mathematician here. The problem with making claims like "everything XXX" or "nothing XXX" is they are remarkably easy to disprove by example. It is objectively impossible to support DeSantis' claims, since at least one example exists that debunks it. That's not DeSantis' problem, however. Everyone can miss one or two tiny details hidden in the fog. DeSantis' problem, well one of many, is he forgot slaves were human beings and they sure as hell questioned the idea.

    DeSantis is gunning for the Trump voters, if not the Trump endorsement (good luck), and therefore I cannot tell if his racism and/or sociopathic nature are being feigned or genuine. But I sure know a dog whistle when I see it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    People risked their life knowing full well the consequences if they were caught to escape slavery because they knew being dead was better than being a slave, and people risked their lives to help them. And they did so for hundreds of years. Families would be ripped apart on a whim never to see one another again, and slavers could and did kill, torture and rape their slaves with absolutely no oversight. No amount of placation of "well some of it wasn't that bad" or the ever-so-popular "they were better off slaves than they'd be in Africa" changes any of that.

    Slavery wasn't just a "cold, passionless economic function," it served a very pointed and intentional goal of creating a racial division in the United States, the insidious shadow of which still looms over the US to this day. And that shadow will remain so long as generations are being taught that slavery was anything but exactly what it was: a brutal, targeted form of human subjugation that the US was complicit in for far, far too long, and even when the fight to end it was at its fullest pitch, there were still those who sought to preserve it.
    Racial division was not a focus of slavery in the United States in the 18th Century, as Black people generally weren't even really considered a proper race. They weren't even seen as "proper" humans. It made it easier to treat them as property.

    The whole racial division thing is something that came after abolition, as lawmakers sought to deny Black people their rights and, in the modern era, they use it as a wedge to make poor people fight with each other rather than focus on the bullshit coming from Capitol Hill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Everyone can miss one or two tiny details hidden in the fog. DeSantis' problem, well one of many, is he forgot slaves were human beings and they sure as hell questioned the idea.
    I genuinely think that does not matter, at all. At least in the context of chattel slavery (I would have to look up the other forms slavery has taken throughout history, since some sound more like "forced apprenticeship" than anything else, at least back in antiquity), I think it's fairly safe to assume that the slaves do not, in fact, think slavery is cool and are automatically against it because they would prefer to not be slaves doing literal slave labor.

    It's not arguing that the slaves are not people or that their opinions do not matter, more that it's kind of an absurd foundation to build your argument on - it requires you to entertain the idea that "well some meaningful minority of slaves were okay with being slaves," which is just... ridiculous.

    I think it's the groups in power that matter more in terms of emancipation, anyway. If you can't convince the groups of people in power (in this context, white men with the right to vote) that they should buck the status quo, you're going to have a really damn hard time of making serious, long-lasting changes to the structure of things. Like, it doesn't matter how many tens of thousands of slaves think slavery is garbage and should be illegal if the voters aren't showing up to vote for people that agree, slavery sucks and we should outlaw it.

    Well, absent violent rebellion, anyway. I guess just killing the crap out of the people responsible for upholding slavery until they were forced to agree that slavery sucks worked, too.

  16. #16
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Racial division was not a focus of slavery in the United States in the 18th Century, as Black people generally weren't even really considered a proper race. They weren't even seen as "proper" humans. It made it easier to treat them as property.

    The whole racial division thing is something that came after abolition, as lawmakers sought to deny Black people their rights and, in the modern era, they use it as a wedge to make poor people fight with each other rather than focus on the bullshit coming from Capitol Hill.
    "It wasn't about racial division because they just didn't consider black people good enough to be a 'race'" is... not a point that tracks. Or at the very least, doesn't mean anything. It's not "not racism" if you think a race isn't good enough to be human.

    And as such, racial segregation was indeed the point of the codified system of slavery in America. Indentured servitude of both white and black people was more common than slavery in the early days of the American colonies, until increasing revolts (see Bacon's Rebellion) basically drove the colonial governments to realize that, if they could convince poor white people that they were better than any black person and to never stand with them because they were "beneath them," then they could keep both in their place, because they'd never have to face the might of them combined. And so they worked to institutionalize slavery based purely on racial lines.


    Racism. Was always. The point.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    "It wasn't about racial division because they just didn't consider black people good enough to be a 'race'" is... not a point that tracks. Or at the very least, doesn't mean anything. It's not "not racism" if you think a race isn't good enough to be human.

    And as such, racial segregation was indeed the point of the codified system of slavery in America. Indentured servitude of both white and black people was more common than slavery in the early days of the American colonies, until increasing revolts (see Bacon's Rebellion) basically drove the colonial governments to realize that, if they could convince poor white people that they were better than any black person and to never stand with them because they were "beneath them," then they could keep both in their place, because they'd never have to face the might of them combined. And so they worked to institutionalize slavery based purely on racial lines.


    Racism. Was always. The point.
    They didn't consider them to be a race that wasn't human, *they did not consider them part of the human race at all.* It would be like discrimination against monkeys or gorillas, and in fact attitudes at the time often considered them to literally just be an advanced kind of animal and not human.

    Trying to paint that kind of mentality as akin to modern racism is just pointless and stupid. It's arguing for the sake of arguing, it doesn't accomplish anything or illuminate anyone or change anyone's view on the matter. No one that thinks "racism bad" is going to think "well as long as you don't even consider them human, it's okayish kind of."

    It just strikes me as "these people have way too much time on their hands and not enough actually useful things to do with that time." It's like if someone went to school specifically to learn how to preach to the choir on Twitter better.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    People risked their life knowing full well the consequences if they were caught to escape slavery because they knew being dead was better than being a slave, and people risked their lives to help them. And they did so for hundreds of years. Families would be ripped apart on a whim never to see one another again, and slavers could and did kill, torture and rape their slaves with absolutely no oversight. No amount of placation of "well some of it wasn't that bad" or the ever-so-popular "they were better off slaves than they'd be in Africa" changes any of that.

    Slavery wasn't just a "cold, passionless economic function," it served a very pointed and intentional goal of creating a racial division in the United States, the insidious shadow of which still looms over the US to this day. And that shadow will remain so long as generations are being taught that slavery was anything but exactly what it was: a brutal, targeted form of human subjugation that the US was complicit in for far, far too long, and even when the fight to end it was at its fullest pitch, there were still those who sought to preserve it.
    I wont disagree in the american context - chattel slavery, as i said. My post was in no way a defense of slavery or a moral justification for it. I responded to a poster asking about historical examples, and there exist other forms of slavery (i.e. not chattel-slavery). This is in no way a defense of slavery - it makes the US system even worse as it was especially inhumane, and you can't even say antiquated, as there are many examples of slaves thousands of years before the founding of the US that were treated much better.

  19. #19
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    They didn't consider them to be a race that wasn't human, *they did not consider them part of the human race at all.* It would be like discrimination against monkeys or gorillas, and in fact attitudes at the time often considered them to literally just be an advanced kind of animal and not human.

    Trying to paint that kind of mentality as akin to modern racism is just pointless and stupid. It's arguing for the sake of arguing, it doesn't accomplish anything or illuminate anyone or change anyone's view on the matter. No one that thinks "racism bad" is going to think "well as long as you don't even consider them human, it's okayish kind of."

    It just strikes me as "these people have way too much time on their hands and not enough actually useful things to do with that time." It's like if someone went to school specifically to learn how to preach to the choir on Twitter better.
    Well then it should be extra telling that many in conservative circles praise people that also thought "black people were just an advanced kind of animal" and want to re-write history to downplay the US' involvement in fostering and propagating that mindset.

    Also, to say that "painting that mentality as akin to modern racism is pointless and stupid" is also wrong. There's a rather clear and direct line of connections from modern racism and those that propagate it through every racist movement in the past, right back to the confederacy and the civil war and the times before that that created such a mentality.

    The KKK still exist, as do the numerous offshoot white supremacist and alt-right groups that draw various levels of inspiration from it and whose ideas co-mingle. That organization has direct ties to southern sympathizers following the Civil War, which itself stems directly from the South's wish to continue slavery as an institution based on the notion that they thought black people were inferior to white people. To claim that these things are unrelated are to attempt to erase history.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Well then it should be extra telling that many in conservative circles praise people that also thought "black people were just an advanced kind of animal" and want to re-write history to downplay the US' involvement in fostering and propagating that mindset.
    Sure, it means they're pieces of shit now and were pieces of shit then. Funny thing, that. It's almost like treating human beings like animals or property is fundamentally fucked up, or something.

    Also, to say that "painting that mentality as akin to modern racism is pointless and stupid" is also wrong. There's a rather clear and direct line of connections from modern racism and those that propagate it through every racist movement in the past, right back to the confederacy and the civil war and the times before that that created such a mentality.
    Yes, the clear and direct line of connections of "yo they were racist." But the thing is, it wasn't about the racism - the racism was just kind of along for the ride, because they needed slave labor to accomplish their economic goals, and you'll *create* a group of sub-humans or whatever if necessary to justify enslaving some portion of people. Maybe some folks then believed them to be inferior humans, but some believed they were simply really smart animals - and what's the difference between a dumb animal like a cow and a smart animal like an ape?

    The problem is you're arguing like the foundation of the country happened because they decided "hey fuck those people in particular." That is absolutely not what happened, though. What happened was anxiety over religious and economic freedoms came to a boil when a bunch of hotheaded assholes decided to respond to a British company trying to put all of the smugglers out of business by shipping and selling tea (and taxing it) at costs below what the smugglers could charge... and providing a better product at the same time. From what I remember, a majority of the people didn't want to fight over it, but things progressed past the point of no return and the war was on.

    Yes, part of that economic plan was "we need slaves to work our plantation," and there may have been concern about the more educated classes talking about the idea of abolitionism, but it would be several decades before the British turned thought into action there, so I don't think "we're worried we'll lose our slaves" was as important as you're trying to portray. Hell, slave-happy colonies like Georgia were majority loyalist.

    The KKK still exist, as do the numerous offshoot white supremacist and alt-right groups that draw various levels of inspiration from it and whose ideas co-mingle. That organization has direct ties to southern sympathizers following the Civil War, which itself stems directly from the South's wish to continue slavery as an institution based on the notion that they thought black people were inferior to white people. To claim that these things are unrelated are to attempt to erase history.
    No one with an IQ above room temperature thinks otherwise. Remember what I said about it sounding like people are going to school to get better at Tweeting to their flock?

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