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  1. #41
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    As I understand it, person understands by "seasons" just "resetting ilvl of existing drop/rewards" with no direct changes to already released content (yes, probably small portion of new content is also added, although usually without it - just stupid, unjustified reset). While for PvP this isn't of fundamental importance (PvP doesn't imply sequential completion of quests, obtaining lore/story and quests from dungeons and other such miscellaneous things, it’s just that gladitors got their titles, and since PvE people stopped on progress so were issued new portion of content with already better gear/higher ilvl, then in order to compensate for this - level of PvP gear rises... which means new season) and seasons (as reset) are quite appropriate there, then "development" for PvE is much more significant and organization of progress should be different than banal "seasonal scaling". This isn't the same thing, people on the forum earlier were not shy and called it exactly what it is - devs' laziness and tricking stuff.

    But all this is just old question, it will rest on my rejection of current instance and raid design (organization of multiple difficulties), direct criticism of presentation of content in form of M+, continued wild growth of ilvl, item scaling in general, mob scaling, quest organization and world progress itself...
    Alkizon
    I understand that all current development decisions are made to delay progress process, but not to provide more content, only make it cheaper to develop and maintain, still with most wealth outcome, but now we are talking more about spherical in vacuum hardworking and responsible devs, aren't we?
    So litirally:
    1)
    season like raising ceiling and floor for PvP is placeable (it's not drop);
    2) /same stuff/ inappropriate for PvE, you need just smaller jumps in ilvl, but only ceiling and in no case it should be floor;
    3) if necessary and desired, you can "expand" (length/depth) instances or open world, insert pieces that will contain more complex content and bosses with new trigers or behind doors and portals or everything of that, that weren't open before/didn't work due to (lack of) some events/lack of necessary items to enter/some part of terrain was inactive, so it was passed easer before new content and so on... but, I repeat, in no case it should be literal change of drop already introduced into the game, no scaling, no floor raising
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Do you want me to tell you how it was done before in the easiest way? Badges! New pieces of equipment were added every "season". They helped people, who're passing through same old instances, "keep new floor bar", but old instances remained actual at the same time and with same requirements. Yes, it wasn't fast, but everything worked as expected. So, those people who just started play got opportunity to simultaneously still receive initial gear and save up for stuff closer to last "soft floor", with proper activity and/or luck (and maybe even help) in 1/2 months, they will be almost completely ready to get acquainted with "new season", just when excitement of pioneers subsides - no scaling and resets, I'm happy
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-10-10 at 05:40 AM.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    If you want to nitpick this point, what is the problem? Changing the Mythic+ rotation corresponding to the PvP season isn't hurting anything. It certainly isn't taking anything away.
    If you can show me where I said it was a problem or it was hurting anything or it was taking something away, I'll be happy to address that.

    But since I never said anything like that, this seems a little weird.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    The game has always had seasons since 2004 lul...
    Seasons don't mean "new content".
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    The game has always had seasons since 2004 lul...
    Says lul and uses an ellipsis, and thinks new content patches are seasons. Bless your heart.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    If you want to nitpick this point, what is the problem? Changing the Mythic+ rotation corresponding to the PvP season isn't hurting anything. It certainly isn't taking anything away.
    I think it's being used as an excuse to release less new content in favor of recycling. I don't mind old content being used but if they want a system like this I really want to see 4 new mythic plus dungeons each major patch.

  6. #46
    Isn't there only 4? Or are you counting old content too?
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The definition of "season" is not "new content comes out".

    There is a meaningful difference between a season, which is when the floor gets raised in order to deprecate old content or otherwise reset players in some way, and simply releasing new content. These are not the same thing. There is a reason that classic calls them "phases" and not "seasons".
    I think the only time you could argue that it wasn't functionally a seasonal reset is original vanilla, and sort of TBC (questionable). Everything after that is functionally identical to seasons today, new ilvl floors via catch up mechanisms and deprecated content. So people arguing that "I wish there wasn't seasons" when it has been functionally the same for 90% of the games lifespan seems a bit odd, especially if they're also the kind of people that are totally on board with Classic WotLK right now for example. If people want the entire concept of a season to go away, then go play Classic, it's the only place you will find it, and it's still there to enjoy.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Seasons don't mean "new content".
    New raid tiers don't mean new content? Interesting.

  9. #49
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    As I said, there's a lot of grey area and caveats. These aren't two 100% distinct, absolutely different things. However, the seasonal design paradigm, as it exists across gaming, is primarily associated with a reset-oriented mindset, and that goes all the way back to at least Diablo 2. It means something. "Season" is not just a modern term for new content. It is a term that means things are being reset in some way.

    I'm not saying that it's a bad idea. I'm just pointing out that it is meaningfully distinct and it is not the only way to do things.

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    Fair.

    I certainly personally miss the days of added content being about "more" than about "reset, focus on new", but I think there is value in the more focused seasonal model. I think WoW's implementation of it is specifically problematic though. The seasons are too long, the raids are too gigantic, and too little changes outside of the raids. if the are going to do seasonal as they have been, I'd like to see them adopt a model that is closer to Destiny 2, where the seasons are shorter, very focused, and rigidly scheduled.
    Breathing room between seasons is fine. The average player doesn't complete their stuff until the 3rd month, and they can't push seasons faster without cutting corners - namely, PTR bugs, rewards, new dungeons/raids. Their duration is in line with Arena seasons.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "New content releases" and "seasons" are not the same thing.
    And, yet, they've tended to coincide with rated PvP seasons since as early as BC.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    And, yet, they've tended to coincide with rated PvP seasons since as early as BC.
    Bug fixes tend to coincide with major patches too. Are bug fixes now part of the seasonal model?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    Breathing room between seasons is fine. The average player doesn't complete their stuff until the 3rd month, and they can't push seasons faster without cutting corners - namely, PTR bugs, rewards, new dungeons/raids. Their duration is in line with Arena seasons.
    You don't realize it, but you just circularly argued yourself into something. The "average player" actually never sets foot in any of this content. Why? Because it takes too long and too much time investment to progress. Why? Because of the "breathing room" you are talking about. So, what you've done is use the exact problem with the model as a reason to keep the model. The fact that it takes three months is absurd. There should be a NEW SEASON with NEW CONTENT every 3-4 months, and it should be constructed so the average person can get through it much faster. Having one 12 boss raid tier that lasts 6-8 months is absurd. They could give us two 6 boss raid tiers in that time, and a 6 boss raid tier would be significantly less overwhelming to people that can't play five days per week. More people would get to see and do the content.

    Other games with faster release schedules aren't cutting corners. In fact, some of them manage to do this without PTRs and still don't have as many bugs as wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    New raid tiers don't mean new content? Interesting.
    I didn't say seasons don't contain new content. I said seasons are not simply new content.

    A human being does not mean "skin". Do you think I just said that human beings dont have skin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I think the only time you could argue that it wasn't functionally a seasonal reset is original vanilla, and sort of TBC (questionable). Everything after that is functionally identical to seasons today, new ilvl floors via catch up mechanisms and deprecated content. So people arguing that "I wish there wasn't seasons" when it has been functionally the same for 90% of the games lifespan seems a bit odd, especially if they're also the kind of people that are totally on board with Classic WotLK right now for example. If people want the entire concept of a season to go away, then go play Classic, it's the only place you will find it, and it's still there to enjoy.
    I never said they flipped a switch one day and it changes. It was a shift over time, and going back and forth about which patch finally went far enough to call it seasonal is silly. The point is it was less seasonal in vanilla and more seasonal every expansion until at some point it was quite purely seasonal.

    I specifically said that there are benefits and reasons to go with both models, so save your "Go PlAy ClAsSic" for someone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Tiers = seasons guy. What season, err I mean, tier are we on again?

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    See above pls
    No, that isn't what a season means. How about you tell me about the "tiers" of content when Diablo 3 or Fall Guys has a new season.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I never said they flipped a switch one day and it changes. It was a shift over time, and going back and forth about which patch finally went far enough to call it seasonal is silly. The point is it was less seasonal in vanilla and more seasonal every expansion until at some point it was quite purely seasonal..
    Yes I agree, that shift over time happened during TBC and everything after that is functionally the same. My only gripe is the whiners who think this is something new or a product of Mythic+. And as for whether it's good or not, I think it is. Joining a game and having to progress through 1.5 years of content until you can play with your friends is just not fun in any way. There should be some way to incorporate existing content into an evergreen system for sure (like what they experimented with using the Fated system in Season 4 Shadowlands), but removing seasonal elements entirely will not only alienate existing players but it will put people off even starting to play to begin with.

    If my friend told me to come play a game with him but I would have progress through years of content before I could actually play with him I would just laugh and go play something else that respects my time.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Yes I agree, that shift over time happened during TBC and everything after that is functionally the same. My only gripe is the whiners who think this is something new or a product of Mythic+. And as for whether it's good or not, I think it is. Joining a game and having to progress through 1.5 years of content until you can play with your friends is just not fun in any way. There should be some way to incorporate existing content into an evergreen system for sure (like what they experimented with using the Fated system in Season 4 Shadowlands), but removing seasonal elements entirely will not only alienate existing players but it will put people off even starting to play to begin with.

    If my friend told me to come play a game with him but I would have progress through years of content before I could actually play with him I would just laugh and go play something else that respects my time.
    It's not functionally the same. Today, when. patch comes out, the gear that drops from content changes such that all old raids are 100% deprecated. That was not the case in WoTLK, even though it was certainly more toward that model than vanilla was. This is all putting aside how large of a role mythic+ has, which was not the case before it existed obviously, and mythic+ is firmly based on the seasonal model.

    All of that said, while I personally prefer the older model, I get the advantages of the more seasonal model. I just think they need to do a better job, like you said, with utilizing older content in the current seasonal progression path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Don't give 2 shits about Diablo 3 or Fall guys we are talking about WoW in case you confused yourself. A ''season'' and a ''tier'' in wow are the same thing and serve the same function it's just a wording difference gimme a break lol
    If you "don't give a shit" about what "season" means, then stop arguing with me about it. What a weird thing to do.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    Seasons were always a thing, they were just called tiers instead.
    Wish they still called them that honestly.
    In a raiding setting they often are. That was also the only place that used that term. Pvp had seasons, raids had tiers. It is all semantics the big change now is dungeons are included in this cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It's not functionally the same. Today, when. patch comes out, the gear that drops from content changes such that all old raids are 100% deprecated. That was not the case in WoTLK, even though it was certainly more toward that model than vanilla was. This is all putting aside how large of a role mythic+ has, which was not the case before it existed obviously, and mythic+ is firmly based on the seasonal model.

    All of that said, while I personally prefer the older model, I get the advantages of the more seasonal model. I just think they need to do a better job, like you said, with utilizing older content in the current seasonal progression path.

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    If you "don't give a shit" about what "season" means, then stop arguing with me about it. What a weird thing to do.
    In wrath with each new raid tier and patch old gear was obsolete in almost all cases. The only outliers were things that were way too strong or scaled oddly when used with other items.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvito View Post
    In wrath with each new raid tier and patch old gear was obsolete in almost all cases. The only outliers were things that were way too strong or scaled oddly when used with other items.
    If you think that during the Sunwell patch new players were logging in and then running Sunwell in a week, I don't really know what to tell you.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "New content releases" and "seasons" are not the same thing.
    WoW has had seasons since WotLK. You were just too casual at the time and didnt realize it / Blizzard did not specifically call them "Seasons" until recently.



    But its has been the same formula since original WotLK with a different color of paint. Step 1 Gear up with current raid/daily hub/badges available in current patch. Step 2 wait for new patch. Step 3 repeat process with new raids/pvpseason/daily quest hub/better badge vendor.



    Actually started towards the end of TBC.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbydude65 View Post
    You're about like 8 expansions too late to say that.
    9 expansions and one original game release, i'd say.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    If you are confused by reading I would prefer you just ask for clarification rather than misinterpret things, on purpose or otherwise, and look silly talking about something nobody said.

    I said I do not care about Diablo 3 or Fall guys.
    Which means you don’t care what the term “season” means. You don’t just get to point at a chair, say it’s a hamburger, and then when shown a real hamburger say “I don’t care about those ones!” This is the weirdest, most childish way to stomp your feet and shove your fingers in your ears that I have ever seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby451 View Post
    WoW has had seasons since WotLK. You were just too casual at the time and didnt realize it / Blizzard did not specifically call them "Seasons" until recently.



    But its has been the same formula since original WotLK with a different color of paint. Step 1 Gear up with current raid/daily hub/badges available in current patch. Step 2 wait for new patch. Step 3 repeat process with new raids/pvpseason/daily quest hub/better badge vendor.



    Actually started towards the end of TBC.
    Do you think that if you started the game during the sun well patch, you just geared up in a few days and marched right into sun well?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  19. #59
    Very weird title considering the amount of dungeons seems nothing special at all.
    The theming seems nice though.

    I hope they add more genuine DF dungeons though, as well as increasing their percentage in the m+ pool, which seems awefully limited at present (8 dungeons for an entire season? Seriously?)

    I personally would have just put all of DF's dungeons into the pool while adding a few from previous expansions as well.

    Say DF were to have 10 dungeons then i'd add all those to the pool plus five from past expansions which rotate per season.

    Would keep it all a lot more fresh.
    Just be sure to add some currency to buy drops or other bad luck protection against having to endlessly farm a single dungeon.

    Oh and add something to keep the rush-y m+ mentality at bay.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Very weird title considering the amount of dungeons seems nothing special at all.
    The theming seems nice though.

    I hope they add more genuine DF dungeons though, as well as increasing their percentage in the m+ pool, which seems awefully limited at present (8 dungeons for an entire season? Seriously?)

    I personally would have just put all of DF's dungeons into the pool while adding a few from previous expansions as well.

    Say DF were to have 10 dungeons then i'd add all those to the pool plus five from past expansions which rotate per season.

    Would keep it all a lot more fresh.
    Just be sure to add some currency to buy drops or other bad luck protection against having to endlessly farm a single dungeon.

    Oh and add something to keep the rush-y m+ mentality at bay.
    Sorry but no. I don't wanna do 15 dungeons on both Fortified and Tyrannical just to get my KSM/KSH.

    8-10 is just fine.

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