SO MANY DUNGEONS in Dragonflight

[Sentynel]

Why would you need to?
They can just alter KSM while not forcing the same monotonous dreck on us.
Hell last season i got KSM without doing Sanguine depths beyond +5, so it's sort of already like that, they just need to make the ranking system more intelligent.

If you only did a +5 SD, you lost like 250 points from your overall rating. That's a lot of points if you care about rating and push. (I do)

So no, 15 dungeons per season is way too much.

[GothamCity]

Since at least ToC, every new content patch has brought new catchup mechanics with it.

Really has been a thing since Vanilla WoW. Patch 1.7 brought WoW's first catchup mechanic, Zul'Gurub, in the form of a fairly easy 20 man raid that reset every 3 days. It was definitely easier than Blackwing Lair, and most people found upgrades in ZG and it was more than enough to walk into AQ40 with. AQ20 made catchup even faster for AQ40 and was a decent stepping stone for Naxxramas. If you dinged 60 in 1.11, you could walk into ZG & AQ20 three times in a week, then do a good portion of Naxxramas without being a burden.

TBC had Zul'Aman and badge vendors for catchup gear.

WotLK had 10 man versions of each raid + badges.

Big difference in modern seasons versus old tiers is that they make it so you don't need to farm old content for BiS. I cannot tell you how annoying it is to farm Gruul's Lair several times a week for over a year because people get their BiS for all of TBC from it.

[NineSpine]

So now you get to tell me what I do and don't care about? lol ok sure guy

Correct. if someone says "Well here are examples of games with seasons to demonstrate what season means" and you say you don't care, then you don't care.

[Shmazard]

"seasons" to me comes off as "esporty" id rather it be tiers or just a ladder?

[Malkiah]

"seasons" to me comes off as "esporty" id rather it be tiers or just a ladder?

but they're literally the exact same thing in game, so just call it 'tiers' and then ignore the entire situation.

[MoanaLisa]

"New content releases" and "seasons" are not the same thing.

Pretty much though. There's a World's First Race to kick it off, then everyone is encouraged if not forced to stay in that raid tier until there's something new and another World's First Race to start over again. No matter what you call it, it works exactly like a season and seems to be a distinction without a difference.

[Nitros14]

I hate the term "Season" instead of "Tier" because it shows a focus on making the game an e-sport, which has always been a terrible idea that increases toxicity.

[Relapses]

Pretty much though. There's a World's First Race to kick it off, then everyone is encouraged if not forced to stay in that raid tier until there's something new and another World's First Race to start over again. No matter what you call it, it works exactly like a season and seems to be a distinction without a difference.

Our present Season 4 is exactly that -- it's a new season within the same Tier. Granted, it's the first time they've done something like this but consider that this has been popular it's possible we'll see Tiers broken up between multiple seasons moving forward. This will give them more wiggle room to work on each new Tier without it feeling stale like it did at the beginning of SL.

[Belloc]

Bug fixes tend to coincide with major patches too. Are bug fixes now part of the seasonal model?

No, because bug fixes are part of literally every patch.

[Nynax]

Right, so you are complaining about something that has been in the game since Wrath, where new content invalidates old content and near enough no gear carries over.

Cool.

maybe he doesn't like the catch-up gear and wants to go back to when any new character had to progress though every tier before it can join the most recent content? Total abandonment of previous raid tiers is probably the biggest difference pre and post M+ seasons now that dungeon loot ilvls get boosted every time.

[NineSpine]

You are trying so hard to argue over semantics about something that in of itself was semantics holy shit

This is such a weird dodge. Don't take issue with semantics and then start whining that someone talks to you about semantics.

You already admitted that you straight up do not care what the word means, so I don't understand why you are still prattling on about it.

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Pretty much though. There's a World's First Race to kick it off, then everyone is encouraged if not forced to stay in that raid tier until there's something new and another World's First Race to start over again. No matter what you call it, it works exactly like a season and seems to be a distinction without a difference.

None of those things have anything to do with what a "season" is in video games.

Seasons contain *reset mechanics*, which in the case of PvP and M+ is very explicit resetting and in the case of raids is represented by the absolute deprecation of the old raid by level-setting the rest of the rewards in the game to exceed that raid. This was not always the case.

[Celement]

This is such a weird dodge. Don't take issue with semantics and then start whining that someone talks to you about semantics.

You already admitted that you straight up do not care what the word means, so I don't understand why you are still prattling on about it.

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None of those things have anything to do with what a "season" is in video games.

Seasons contain *reset mechanics*, which in the case of PvP and M+ is very explicit resetting and in the case of raids is represented by the absolute deprecation of the old raid by level-setting the rest of the rewards in the game to exceed that raid. This was not always the case.

I mean it kind of was... you can argue some items bleed over more in the past but you really have to grasp at straws to say it wasn't. Unless you are talking about the tbc era were you had to do the tiers in order for the most part?

[bloodykiller86]

"New content releases" and "seasons" are not the same thing.

...ummm PvP seasons and tiers were all the same thing. People wouldnt still do Kara in tier 6 unless their guild was too small. They'd blast to higher tiers of content or get catch up gear and go straight to latest tier.

[NineSpine]

...ummm PvP seasons and tiers were all the same thing. People wouldnt still do Kara in tier 6 unless their guild was too small. They'd blast to higher tiers of content or get catch up gear and go straight to latest tier.

That's just false. All tiers were highly active during TBC. People who were always at the edge of progression obviously didn't need to go back and run old content, but that doesn't change that every tier was very, very, very active through the entire expansion for the group of people whose progression was at that tier. The catch up gear during Tier 6 took ages to get and functioned more as progression for non-raiders. You could easily get more gear in one night of raiding an old tier than in two weeks of relentlessly grinding out catch up gear.

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I mean it kind of was... you can argue some items bleed over more in the past but you really have to grasp at straws to say it wasn't. Unless you are talking about the tbc era were you had to do the tiers in order for the most part?

I'm saying that in vanilla there was nothing that could be called seasonal. There was just new content added and nothing was ever deprecated. Every expansion after that became more and more seasonal until we get to the current model that is extremely seasonal at its core, which we can probably say started in Legion.

[Celement]

That's just false. All tiers were highly active during TBC. People who were always at the edge of progression obviously didn't need to go back and run old content, but that doesn't change that every tier was very, very, very active through the entire expansion for the group of people whose progression was at that tier. The catch up gear during Tier 6 took ages to get and functioned more as progression for non-raiders. You could easily get more gear in one night of raiding an old tier than in two weeks of relentlessly grinding out catch up gear.

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I'm saying that in vanilla there was nothing that could be called seasonal. There was just new content added and nothing was ever deprecated. Every expansion after that became more and more seasonal until we get to the current model that is extremely seasonal at its core, which we can probably say started in Legion.

I mean even then content sorta was. Not to the same extent but people skipped molten core and bwl constantly in vanilla and classic for zg.

I enjoy tiered content I believe it superior to difficulty modes but I can still see things for as they are. I am also unsure if having things like hand of justice that you use forever is healthy for the game or not.

[Utrrabbit]

I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.

Wow has literally had seasoms since vanilla. They were just called tiers back than. The name changed but it means the same thing.

[bullseyed]

I love the idea of random loot tables, especially since that would fix some issues like certain specs only wanting to do one specific dungeon because the others simply don't give them anything worth while other than contributing to their weekly box/vault/whatever. However, I can guarantee the folks who bitch non-stop about having to "re-grind" the same trinkets over and over again will be out in arms to protest no longer being able to re-grind their same trinket.

That too maybe. I meant more of "In S1 trinket X drops from boss Y in dungeon Z" and then "in S2 dungeon Z isn't available" so they move "trinket X to boss A in dungeon B".

Many seasons have issues where the raid trinkets are better than the dungeon trinkets, or vice versa. I think rotating both sets of trinkets each season, for example, will make that balance more problematic. When they released SoD, they could check Ocular Glad vs IQD performance. But if they don't know what trinket will be meta in S2 because its all new gear (or updated old gear) they will have a harder time balancing new gear against it.

Same goes for weapons with procs, in particular. Melee often has their BIS be a proc weapon of some kind, which means they could actually lose relative DPS from S1 -> S2 if that weapon is now gone and they use a regular-stat weapon instead. Maybe it is better, maybe it is worse, but it's more work to balance and introduces more uncertainty and therefore error into the equation.

And all that sits on one side, and the other side has things like "using IQD for 2 years was boring" which is true to a degree... I wish there was greater choice in trinket styles (active vs passive, dothething vs getbuff), that sort of thing. Like galecallers giving you a spot to stand in was fun when there was a beat-able challenge for doing it well, but terrible when the tank didn't hold stuff still or maybe had to kite for necrotic or sanguine. I'd rather not have galecallers back if I can use something like grenade instead for %damage that aligns with my 2 min CDs.

[Makorus]

maybe he doesn't like the catch-up gear and wants to go back to when any new character had to progress though every tier before it can join the most recent content? Total abandonment of previous raid tiers is probably the biggest difference pre and post M+ seasons now that dungeon loot ilvls get boosted every time.

When the fuck did "any new character" have to progress through every tier?

The only reason you had to do that was for specific trinkets, but if I had capped 70, and I joined a guild that was doing Sunwell/BT, they would just take me through there lmao

[NineSpine]

What is this even supposed to mean?

No I never ''admitted'' anything this is fkn weird as shit why do you have such a hard-on for me? All I said is I don't care what other games do for their seasons as it has literally nothing to do with anything, I only care how wow implements seasons/tiers and you go off the deep end with these constant 'gotcha' attempts.

It's not what "other games do for their seasons". It's what a season IS. That's the point. You are basically saying "The word season has a different meaning for wow than everywhere else, so that I can call whatever I want a season". This is like saying "When I eat a hamburger, I call it a salad, therefore it is a salad!"

Wow did not have seasons in vanilla or in TBC or in WoTLK. Period. I don't care what you personally decide to define words as in your head.

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Basically this.

It doesn't mean the same thing. A season has reset mechanics.

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I mean even then content sorta was. Not to the same extent but people skipped molten core and bwl constantly in vanilla and classic for zg.

I enjoy tiered content I believe it superior to difficulty modes but I can still see things for as they are. I am also unsure if having things like hand of justice that you use forever is healthy for the game or not.

I think the seasonal model makes sense for the game as it stands in 2022. I just don't get why so many people need to rewrite the past and deny changes in the design of the game just to validate their preference for the newer design decisions.

[loras]

If you only did a +5 SD, you lost like 250 points from your overall rating. That's a lot of points if you care about rating and push. (I do)

So no, 15 dungeons per season is way too much.

You're still missing the point that you can just knock down the requirements of KSM while introducing 15 dungeons, while keeping the difficulty of KSM intact.
KSM presently granted at 8 dungeons done at +15 at both tyrannical and fortified? New KSM with 15 dungeons then also requires exactly that.

Point is there are trivially easy workarounds for KSM becoming harder "because" of the addition of more dungeons.