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  1. #121
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you think the model of WoTLK was identical to the model of Legion, I don't really know what to tell you. Legion included systems where world drops changed to a new baseline every patch, and the M+ systems was introduced with a strict seasonal model. The idea that this is no more seasonal than WoTLK is just ridiculous to me.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Weirdly, this problem never arises with games that use more evergreen models. It's almost like the "WoW doesnt do it this way, therefore it cant work" crowd needs to spend 5 minutes playing a video game besides wow.



    If you think dungeon gear was better than BWL or AQ gear, you are living in such a deranged fantasy world that any discussion isn't worth having.
    Show me what game does not have this problem please, if you mean ff14, it has FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR less raid content, it has less raids then wow by a fucking long shot, and most of the raids have 1 boss, its endgame is nothing comparable to wow.


    Lol no fucking where in my post did i say AQ "There was no reason to do molten core or even BWL"

    "If you think dungeon gear was better then BWL or AQ..."
    lol fuck off.

    and lastly yes, there were a fair few pieces as good or better then BWL gear from dungeons in the later patches.
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  2. #122
    Someone is salty
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  3. #123
    Pandaren Monk shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you think the model of WoTLK was identical to the model of Legion, I don't really know what to tell you.
    I don't. I literally said that the catch-up mechanics have changed over time. So saying, "Oh, but some world drops adjust too now! Totally different system" is silly. What I said was that by the metric you seem to be using, that you no longer needed to run previous content instances in order to gear up to run current content, that was already firmly established and completely in place by Wrath. Obviously, new things have been introduced in the years since Wrath, but that's not relevant to the point.
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  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    I don't. I literally said that the catch-up mechanics have changed over time. So saying, "Oh, but some world drops adjust too now! Totally different system" is silly. What I said was that by the metric you seem to be using, that you no longer needed to run previous content instances in order to gear up to run current content, that was already firmly established and completely in place by Wrath. Obviously, new things have been introduced in the years since Wrath, but that's not relevant to the point.
    I didn't say it was a "totally different system". I said it was a sliding scale that moved farther and farther from vanilla to legion. It sounds like you are just disagreeing with me to be disagreeable.

    This is quite simple:
    WoTLK had catch up gear vendors that allowed you to fill some, but not all, slots and took an exceptional amount of time to gear up through.
    Legion had catch up gear vendors to fill all slots, and M+ seasons, and loot tables that were adjusted so that you were near-immediately able to do the newest content.

    Legion is clearly more seasonal than WoTLK. This isn't an on or off switch. It's a sliding scale, which is how I have always described it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    We're going to have to agree to disagree. If you're defining "seasons" as "invalidating the instances that came before it and allowing people to start fresh," that was 100% the case and solidified by Wrath. Vanilla and BC are more arguable, I suppose...that's where I'd say any "gradual shift" occurred.
    Nah, Vanilla was like that too. TBC was an outlier because you literally couldn't get into the raids without doing the others first. Once that was removed, they didn't get nearly as much attention. Blizzard pretty much just formalised something that has been happening since the start.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Show me what game does not have this problem please, if you mean ff14, it has FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR less raid content, it has less raids then wow by a fucking long shot, and most of the raids have 1 boss, its endgame is nothing comparable to wow.
    FF14 Shadowbringers had 35 raid/trial bosses.
    WoW Shadowlands had 31 raid bosses.

    The most recent ultimate boss in FF14 took twice as many pulls to kill as Mythic Jailer.

    Lol no fucking where in my post did i say AQ "There was no reason to do molten core or even BWL"
    This you?

    "by the time nax came out there was no reason to do molten core or even BWL"

    and lastly yes, there were a fair few pieces as good or better then BWL gear from dungeons in the later patches.
    There was the dungeon Tier 0.5 set, which was insanely time and gold intensive, to the point where it would take weeks of work to get one raid nights worth of drops, and really not very good compared to raid gear. Other than that dungeon gear never changed in vanilla
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  7. #127
    Pandaren Monk shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I didn't say it was a "totally different system". I said it was a sliding scale that moved farther and farther from vanilla to legion. It sounds like you are just disagreeing with me to be disagreeable.

    This is quite simple:
    WoTLK had catch up gear vendors that allowed you to fill some, but not all, slots and took an exceptional amount of time to gear up through.
    That's not all WotLK had. It also had dungeons with higher ilevel gear to catch up every slot.

    So yeah, the seasonal model was in place by Wrath, fully. It had seasonal vendors to get you a lot of catch-up gear and new-season dungeons to fully kit you out for the new-season raids.

    By Wrath, the game's model was seasonal. If you want to argue that the game became "more seasonal" later by adding a new seasonal activity (M+), that's fine. But the game's model was seasonal by Wrath, which is the important thing, IMO.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    That's not all WotLK had. It also had dungeons with higher ilevel gear to catch up every slot.
    You mean in one patch they did that. As opposed to Legion where they added a M+ system where the rewards are scaled with every patch.

    So yeah, the seasonal model was in place by Wrath, fully. It had seasonal vendors to get you a lot of catch-up gear and new-season dungeons to fully kit you out for the new-season raids.

    By Wrath, the game's model was seasonal. If you want to argue that the game became "more seasonal" later by adding a new seasonal activity (M+), that's fine. But the game's model was seasonal by Wrath, which is the important thing, IMO.
    This is just semantic bullshit. I already said that the game became more seasonal over time. You are just being argumentative for the sake of it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  9. #129
    I thought picking 4 dungeons from current and 4 from older xpacks was a good idea for mythic plus. This was UNTILL they mentioned we started like this from the start. Like, how long did they think about this and decided to do it this way? As far as I know, nobody is looking forward to have only 4 of the new dungeons during the first season in mythic plus. Ooh well, I think it's best not to look for logic behind Blizzard's decisions.

    About seasons: I think seasons aren't that bad. However it started getting bad for me when they added timers, scores and other shit like that, building the game towards that philosophy, like you're playing a highly competitive sports game. Really killed the vibe of the game for me.

  10. #130
    Pandaren Monk shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You mean in one patch they did that. As opposed to Legion where they added a M+ system where the rewards are scaled with every patch.
    As I recall, that was true for the Trial of the Crusader tier/season, as well as the Icecrown tier/season. But, regardless, I never said the seasonal model was in for the entirety of Wrath. I said that in Wrath, the model was established.

    You can consider the period before that your "gradual shift."

    This is just semantic bullshit. I already said that the game became more seasonal over time. You are just being argumentative for the sake of it.
    Nope, you're just wrong and trying to weasel out of it. It's pretty clear the game had a seasonal model by Wrath. Saying there were changes to the game since then is both obvious and completely irrelevant. We're talking about when "seasons" came into the game, and they were in the game by Wrath. Whether Blizzard did more with seasons after establishing them doesn't change that point.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Going into old raids and sneezing on enemies to kill them isn't exactly the most thrilling way to experience the mechanics. You literally just said you disagree with me and then two sentences later started describing the problem with the content becoming "mind numbing" when it is deprecated.

    I don't care if content is challenging. I care if content is fun. Challenge is one lever to make content fun, but the idea that it is the only lever that exists is exactly the cancer at the heart of wow's development and its community.
    Right. Now, what you're proposing is that we make content fun, and make people want to do content, which both of us agree one one-hundred percent. Yet, when a solution is provided in the name of making old content fun again, such as old dungeons coming back in the form of seasonal M+ and making raids Fated (or whatever the DF equivalent might be - Timewarped? Just speculating.), instead of providing a new 'lever' to make content fun other than difficulty level and gear rewards, you state 'cosmetics' - when that's already in the base raid, in form of armor, weapons, mounts, pets, titles and achievements (which give their own mounts and titles usually).

    Again. Best of both worlds ideology is good to implement here. Higher difficulty, better rewards, and different / more cosmetics being added with each new level of difficulty would, in my eyes, make all content worth doing, even if it's a tier behind the most recent. It'd be fun rather than purely challenging for the sake of challenge. Fundamentally, I believe we agree in that making older content fun and relevant is important.
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    shut up idiot

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Koollan View Post
    Right. Now, what you're proposing is that we make content fun, and make people want to do content, which both of us agree one one-hundred percent. Yet, when a solution is provided in the name of making old content fun again, such as old dungeons coming back in the form of seasonal M+ and making raids Fated (or whatever the DF equivalent might be - Timewarped? Just speculating.), instead of providing a new 'lever' to make content fun other than difficulty level and gear rewards, you state 'cosmetics' - when that's already in the base raid, in form of armor, weapons, mounts, pets, titles and achievements (which give their own mounts and titles usually).

    Again. Best of both worlds ideology is good to implement here. Higher difficulty, better rewards, and different / more cosmetics being added with each new level of difficulty would, in my eyes, make all content worth doing, even if it's a tier behind the most recent. It'd be fun rather than purely challenging for the sake of challenge. Fundamentally, I believe we agree in that making older content fun and relevant is important.
    I think that bringing back old dungeons for M+ is an excellent idea.

    I think fated raids are a good idea.

    But that is how holistic enough. That doesn't make the content evergreen, which is what I am advocating. The other levers to make content fun are things like engaging mechanics, fun level design, immersive atmospheres, etc.. You seem to be a bit stuck in the "difficulty & rewards" mentality, which is exactly what I am criticizing. I think it is 100% fine for someone to personally be interested in difficulty and rewards, but WoW should stop being designed like those are the only two ways to make anything fun.
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  13. #133
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    FF14 Shadowbringers had 35 raid/trial bosses.
    WoW Shadowlands had 31 raid bosses.

    The most recent ultimate boss in FF14 took twice as many pulls to kill as Mythic Jailer.



    This you?

    "by the time nax came out there was no reason to do molten core or even BWL"



    There was the dungeon Tier 0.5 set, which was insanely time and gold intensive, to the point where it would take weeks of work to get one raid nights worth of drops, and really not very good compared to raid gear. Other than that dungeon gear never changed in vanilla
    1. Most of those bosses in shadowbringers were just different difficulties...

    2. Again show me where I said AQ.

    3. Again you seem to be missing stuff but I don't wanna argus this anymore it's tiring.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You mean in one patch they did that. As opposed to Legion where they added a M+ system where the rewards are scaled with every patch.



    This is just semantic bullshit. I already said that the game became more seasonal over time. You are just being argumentative for the sake of it.
    You do know every patch in Wotlk added badges that let you buy gear from the new and old raid equivalent that came from doing dungeons right? Like once icc camenout you didn't need to do anything pte icc.just farm your badges of frost. It was not one patch it was every patch.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  14. #134
    Love how they are incorporating old dungeons into the M+ season. My only concern is the reduced number of dungeons per season. 8 is not enough, i reckon. 10 should be the bare minimum.

    I understand having more dungeons implicates more knowledge people need to get, and a higher entry barrier, but come on. 8 dungeons is too few.

  15. #135
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevano View Post
    I thought picking 4 dungeons from current and 4 from older xpacks was a good idea for mythic plus. This was UNTILL they mentioned we started like this from the start. Like, how long did they think about this and decided to do it this way? As far as I know, nobody is looking forward to have only 4 of the new dungeons during the first season in mythic plus. Ooh well, I think it's best not to look for logic behind Blizzard's decisions.

    About seasons: I think seasons aren't that bad. However it started getting bad for me when they added timers, scores and other shit like that, building the game towards that philosophy, like you're playing a highly competitive sports game. Really killed the vibe of the game for me.
    The game has always had timers though, while M+ they are visible, raids have always had them in weekly resets, and enrage timers. M+ timer is just there to act as an enrage, or people would be encouraged to get as high as they can buy bloodlusting every single pack.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    As I recall, that was true for the Trial of the Crusader tier/season, as well as the Icecrown tier/season. But, regardless, I never said the seasonal model was in for the entirety of Wrath. I said that in Wrath, the model was established.

    You can consider the period before that your "gradual shift."



    Nope, you're just wrong and trying to weasel out of it. It's pretty clear the game had a seasonal model by Wrath. Saying there were changes to the game since then is both obvious and completely irrelevant. We're talking about when "seasons" came into the game, and they were in the game by Wrath. Whether Blizzard did more with seasons after establishing them doesn't change that point.
    I already said that the game had seasonal design components in WoTLK. It had more of them in Legion. You agree to both of these things, but keep arguing with me. Being argumentative just for the sake of it is bad for your mental health.
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  17. #137
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koollan View Post
    Right. Now, what you're proposing is that we make content fun, and make people want to do content, which both of us agree one one-hundred percent. Yet, when a solution is provided in the name of making old content fun again, such as old dungeons coming back in the form of seasonal M+ and making raids Fated (or whatever the DF equivalent might be - Timewarped? Just speculating.), instead of providing a new 'lever' to make content fun other than difficulty level and gear rewards, you state 'cosmetics' - when that's already in the base raid, in form of armor, weapons, mounts, pets, titles and achievements (which give their own mounts and titles usually).

    Again. Best of both worlds ideology is good to implement here. Higher difficulty, better rewards, and different / more cosmetics being added with each new level of difficulty would, in my eyes, make all content worth doing, even if it's a tier behind the most recent. It'd be fun rather than purely challenging for the sake of challenge. Fundamentally, I believe we agree in that making older content fun and relevant is important.
    They tried to do this with time walking raids, no one does them, they drop gear equal to the current raids normal mode, but no one does them, for the exact reason that it spreads out the community making it harder to find content, and it's easier to know everyone knows the new fights. Then these countless old ones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Love how they are incorporating old dungeons into the M+ season. My only concern is the reduced number of dungeons per season. 8 is not enough, i reckon. 10 should be the bare minimum.

    I understand having more dungeons implicates more knowledge people need to get, and a higher entry barrier, but come on. 8 dungeons is too few.
    8 is how many Legion bfa shadowlands all launched with for the first tm+ season, that only increased to 10 with the megandungeon.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    8 is how many Legion bfa shadowlands all launched with for the first tm+ season, that only increased to 10 with the megandungeon.
    Exactly, and that's too few. Coming from past expansions like TBC or WOTLK where you had a massive amount of dungeons at launch, and frequently added (both expansions ended with around 16 iirc).

    added - At least now we'll have different ones each season, which is great, but the pool should be bigger imo.
    Last edited by hulkgor; 2022-10-05 at 05:44 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    1. Most of those bosses in shadowbringers were just different difficulties...
    I only counted each boss once. I did not count multiple difficulties. If I did, it would be more like 50-something bosses. Would you like me to list them, or do you want to just accept that you are talking out of your ass?

    2. Again show me where I said AQ.
    You said that by the time Naxx came out, there was no reason to do "molten core or even BWL". Logically, this would mean that dungeon gear must have been better than BWL and AQ by that point. Otherwise, people generally ran BWL and/or AQ to get geared up for Naxx.

    3. Again you seem to be missing stuff but I don't wanna argus this anymore it's tiring.
    I'm sure it is tiring to completely talk out of your ass with such an inflated ego.

    You do know every patch in Wotlk added badges that let you buy gear from the new and old raid equivalent that came from doing dungeons right? Like once icc camenout you didn't need to do anything pte icc.just farm your badges of frost. It was not one patch it was every patch.
    I said it was one patch where they added dungeons, not where they had catch up gear.

    But you have demonstrated quite well that expecting you to bother reading what I actually said is a futile effort.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you think that during the Sunwell patch new players were logging in and then running Sunwell in a week, I don't really know what to tell you.

    I wasn't aware Sunwell Plateau was part of Wrath of the Lich King.

    The person you're quoting specifically stated that Wrath of the Lich King was when the game started following the current model almost to a T - and he is absolutely correct. When Ulduar released, there was absolutely no reason to run Naxxramas anymore, as you could earn equivalent gear from Badges of Triumph, which replaced Badges of Justice as the base currency drop.

    So yes - you absolutely could start a new character, level them 80, and jump straight into Ulduar, without ever needing to touch Naxx. This pattern continued with Trial of the Crusader, and eventually ICC, where each patch deprecated older currency out of the game, and replaced them with a newer, higher tier raid currency, and had the previous high tier raid currency drop from all other sources, which for most people were primarily Heroic 5-man dungeons.

    Older raids became irrelevant whenever a new content patch dropped with a raid tier in it. It's why Blizzard is adjusting Wrath Classic to help ensure older raids REMAIN relevant, as they became completely ignored once a new raid tier released, unless the raid was the weekly quest, in which case congrats, you had a reason to go in and kill the first or second boss in a raid for raid currency.
    Last edited by Bladesyphon; 2022-10-05 at 06:00 PM.

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