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  1. #141
    Pandaren Monk shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I already said that the game had seasonal design components in WoTLK. It had more of them in Legion. You agree to both of these things, but keep arguing with me. Being argumentative just for the sake of it is bad for your mental health.
    I already pointed out that the seasonal model (by your own metric of making past raids unnecessary) was already 100% in place by Wrath, which you agree with, yet you keep arguing with me. Defensive projection is a bad thing, look up what that is.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  2. #142
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Exactly, and that's too few. Coming from past expansions like TBC or WOTLK where you had a massive amount of dungeons at launch, and frequently added (both expansions ended with around 16 iirc).

    added - At least now we'll have different ones each season, which is great, but the pool should be bigger imo.
    Tbc and Wotlk also reused a ton of the same assets for each dungeon. Utgardd keep and pinicle coulda been the same dungeon but connected together.
    Throne of lightning and stone
    Gundrak and draktharon keep.
    Botanica and mechanar.

    That's the point, back then they made more dungeons by reusing a fuckload of assets.
    They could do that these days and get a ton more dungeons out of it, but these days people call that lazy, back then it was... Innovative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you think that during the Sunwell patch new players were logging in and then running Sunwell in a week, I don't really know what to tell you.
    Didn't know sunwell was in Wotlk.
    Also funnily enough I did this recently, I quit tbc after getting full prepaid bis for kara, came back and did a quick black temple and sunwell for footage, had no problem keeping up in DPS, cause I got myself some badge gear.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2022-10-05 at 06:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    I already pointed out that the seasonal model (by your own metric of making past raids unnecessary) was already 100% in place by Wrath, which you agree with, yet you keep arguing with me. Defensive projection is a bad thing, look up what that is.
    I'm not arguing with you. The only point I made was that from vanilla to Legion the game became increasingly seasonal. You agree with this.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I think that bringing back old dungeons for M+ is an excellent idea.

    I think fated raids are a good idea.

    But that is how holistic enough. That doesn't make the content evergreen, which is what I am advocating. The other levers to make content fun are things like engaging mechanics, fun level design, immersive atmospheres, etc.. You seem to be a bit stuck in the "difficulty & rewards" mentality, which is exactly what I am criticizing. I think it is 100% fine for someone to personally be interested in difficulty and rewards, but WoW should stop being designed like those are the only two ways to make anything fun.
    I think that the angle you're taking on this is very valid, and I suppose the prior disconnect was due to my thoughts on how the content has been in my eyes from what we can see.

    Generally speaking, at least visually, the most recent raid has been atmospherically immersive and engaging mechanically. The bosses of Sanctum were also fun for me, personally - even though I liked pretty much no other aspect of Shadowlands (other than Torghast - it seems I'm a minority in that aspect). The raid in Nazjatar in BfA seemed to be designed with more fun in mind imho, even if that expansion was an overt tragedy.

    I think it goes without saying that making raids with fun, unique and immersive atmospheres and mechanics is what everybody who plays the game prefers. However, realistically - we're dealing with Blizzard. I really don't want to say that I don't have faith in that aspect. In fact, I'm honestly loving the direction that they're taking the atmosphere and mechanics of Warcraft, including the raid and dungeons coming in DF. Can they afford to take more risks? I believe so, but honestly speaking, I doubt that Blizzard thinks so. They've taken enough miscalculated risks with BfA and SL. They shaped up horribly. Granted, worldbuilding is one of their strongest assets and incorporating immersion into most of their content seems to be an easy mark to make - but, logistically, investment simply doesn't make that mark. Investment looks for innovation rather than improvement, if that makes sense. I'd hedge a bet that it took Blizzard leaps and bounds to convince their investors to hang out through Dragonflight, considering their massive step back in the 'innovation' and 'new systems' department, and even then, they have Dragonflying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Dude A: "lol well if you weren't such a Blizzard Shill™ you'd believe my source!"
    Dude B: ::posts the Webster Dictionary definition of the word 'objective' followed by a 700-word essay about how the WoW community is doomed::
    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPrincess View Post
    shut up idiot

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Bladesyphon View Post
    I wasn't aware Sunwell Plateau was part of Wrath of the Lich King.

    The person you're quoting specifically stated that Wrath of the Lich King was when the game started following the current model almost to a T - and he is absolutely correct. When Ulduar released, there was absolutely no reason to run Naxxramas anymore, as you could earn equivalent gear from Badges of Triumph, which replaced Badges of Justice as the base currency drop.

    So yes - you absolutely could start a new character, level them 80, and jump straight into Ulduar, without ever needing to touch Naxx. This pattern continued with Trial of the Crusader, and eventually ICC, where each patch deprecated older currency out of the game, and replaced them with a newer, higher tier raid currency, and had the previous high tier raid currency drop from all other sources, which for most people were primarily Heroic 5-man dungeons.

    Older raids became irrelevant whenever a new content patch dropped with a raid tier in it. It's why Blizzard is adjusting Wrath Classic to help ensure older raids REMAIN relevant, as they became completely ignored once a new raid tier released, unless the raid was the weekly quest, in which case congrats, you had a reason to go in and kill the first or second boss in a raid for raid currency.
    WoTLK didn't adjust world drops or have M+ seasons, and therefore is not the same model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koollan View Post
    I think that the angle you're taking on this is very valid, and I suppose the prior disconnect was due to my thoughts on how the content has been in my eyes from what we can see.

    Generally speaking, at least visually, the most recent raid has been atmospherically immersive and engaging mechanically. The bosses of Sanctum were also fun for me, personally - even though I liked pretty much no other aspect of Shadowlands (other than Torghast - it seems I'm a minority in that aspect). The raid in Nazjatar in BfA seemed to be designed with more fun in mind imho, even if that expansion was an overt tragedy.

    I think it goes without saying that making raids with fun, unique and immersive atmospheres and mechanics is what everybody who plays the game prefers. However, realistically - we're dealing with Blizzard. I really don't want to say that I don't have faith in that aspect. In fact, I'm honestly loving the direction that they're taking the atmosphere and mechanics of Warcraft, including the raid and dungeons coming in DF. Can they afford to take more risks? I believe so, but honestly speaking, I doubt that Blizzard thinks so. They've taken enough miscalculated risks with BfA and SL. They shaped up horribly. Granted, worldbuilding is one of their strongest assets and incorporating immersion into most of their content seems to be an easy mark to make - but, logistically, investment simply doesn't make that mark. Investment looks for innovation rather than improvement, if that makes sense. I'd hedge a bet that it took Blizzard leaps and bounds to convince their investors to hang out through Dragonflight, considering their massive step back in the 'innovation' and 'new systems' department, and even then, they have Dragonflying.
    The encounters and systems are very engaging, for people who like challenging content and find challenge itself engaging. I don't think they have done a terribly good job outside of that demographic though.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    They tried to do this with time walking raids, no one does them, they drop gear equal to the current raids normal mode, but no one does them, for the exact reason that it spreads out the community making it harder to find content, and it's easier to know everyone knows the new fights. Then these countless old ones.
    I'd argue the idea that the reason that nobody does Timewalking raids is simply the fact that they do not provide anything unique in the name of gameplay that is exclusive to their scaling system. Take Fated. Every boss has new mechanics added that, if successfully done, give you a massive edge in each fight, even if the fight itself is still quite difficult.

    Not only that - if there were better rewards exclusive to the modes (here I go on rewards again) akin to exclusive cosmetics, mounts, titles, then people would likely give it more time in the limelight. As it stands, you can still only get the timewalking mount from timewalking dungeons, as far as I can tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Dude A: "lol well if you weren't such a Blizzard Shill™ you'd believe my source!"
    Dude B: ::posts the Webster Dictionary definition of the word 'objective' followed by a 700-word essay about how the WoW community is doomed::
    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPrincess View Post
    shut up idiot

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Tbc and Wotlk also reused a ton of the same assets for each dungeon. Utgardd keep and pinicle coulda been the same dungeon but connected together.
    Throne of lightning and stone
    Gundrak and draktharon keep.
    Botanica and mechanar.

    That's the point, back then they made more dungeons by reusing a fuckload of assets.
    They could do that these days and get a ton more dungeons out of it, but these days people call that lazy, back then it was... Innovative?
    What's more important: That every dungeon be a snowflake, or that there be enough content to keep things interesting? I don't care if they reuse assets if the content itself is engaging.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  8. #148
    5mans are indeed overused. They should make new unique dungeons for 10man hard mode (maybe 2 or 3 max for the entire expansion and not too big).

    That would bring a great balance to the force; 20mans are too big for small groups of friends; 5mans are too small to feel epic.

  9. #149
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koollan View Post
    I'd argue the idea that the reason that nobody does Timewalking raids is simply the fact that they do not provide anything unique in the name of gameplay that is exclusive to their scaling system. Take Fated. Every boss has new mechanics added that, if successfully done, give you a massive edge in each fight, even if the fight itself is still quite difficult.

    Not only that - if there were better rewards exclusive to the modes (here I go on rewards again) akin to exclusive cosmetics, mounts, titles, then people would likely give it more time in the limelight. As it stands, you can still only get the timewalking mount from timewalking dungeons, as far as I can tell.
    they provide unique acheivements, unique transmogs (warglaives) and of course scaled gear, but as you said earlier, they would give gear equal to prior raids, and if gear equal to CURRENT raid is not good enough, prior raid gear is gunna be even worse.


    also they tried this with season of mastery, and it was a failure.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    WoTLK didn't adjust world drops or have M+ seasons, and therefore is not the same model.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The encounters and systems are very engaging, for people who like challenging content and find challenge itself engaging. I don't think they have done a terribly good job outside of that demographic though.
    I think a big part of the disconnect here is making people care about the content that they're doing. As it stands, not a single soul, in my honest opinion, cares about Shadowlands, nor its raids. The story was horrible. The disconnect between the players and the characters is so incredibly vast. The next best thing they could do was make another reason to care about the content. A bandaid fix - perhaps. Necessary, however, to keep the game engaging to any degree whatsoever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Dude A: "lol well if you weren't such a Blizzard Shill™ you'd believe my source!"
    Dude B: ::posts the Webster Dictionary definition of the word 'objective' followed by a 700-word essay about how the WoW community is doomed::
    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPrincess View Post
    shut up idiot

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by cerin616 View Post
    I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.
    But it always had seasons. Every new major content patch were a new season.

    Only thing that changed is, that content you already done can be repeated in the new season with higher itemlevel rewards. Without that you would hit max level, grind du geons, doing first raid tier, when next raid is comming you just walk in and doing the next, with some daylies and 2-3 new items to buy from a currency earned by the new daylies.

    So its just like always, but if you like you can do more content.

  12. #152
    Pandaren Monk shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I'm not arguing with you. The only point I made was that from vanilla to Legion the game became increasingly seasonal. You agree with this.
    Yes, and I'm not arguing with you. I pointed out that the seasonal model was 100% in place by Wrath. You agree with this, since that's based on your own metric of seasonality (old raids no longer being necessary to run).
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Koollan View Post
    I think a big part of the disconnect here is making people care about the content that they're doing. As it stands, not a single soul, in my honest opinion, cares about Shadowlands, nor its raids. The story was horrible. The disconnect between the players and the characters is so incredibly vast. The next best thing they could do was make another reason to care about the content. A bandaid fix - perhaps. Necessary, however, to keep the game engaging to any degree whatsoever.
    I think that's certainly the case as far as Shadowlands goes. I think there is a big problem with bad all of the content feels on its lowest difficulty. LFR in particular is just really, really boring. The mechanics are not fun to engage with. There isn't a sense of urgency to engage with them. They are obtuse unless you go read about the fight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    Yes, and I'm not arguing with you. I pointed out that the seasonal model was 100% in place by Wrath. You agree with this, since that's based on your own metric of seasonality (old raids no longer being necessary to run).
    I never said that a game can be defined as a seasonal game just because old raids get deprecated. Most games don't even have raids.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    Seasons were always a thing, they were just called tiers instead.
    Wish they still called them that honestly.
    Only the changed and changed. Guys, let's not pretend a tier from Wrath is the same as a season form SL.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    Yes, and I'm not arguing with you. I pointed out that the seasonal model was 100% in place by Wrath. You agree with this, since that's based on your own metric of seasonality (old raids no longer being necessary to run).
    Not the same model though. It was seasonal but did not involved the same level and activities affected.

  15. #155
    Pandaren Monk shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I never said that a game can be defined as a seasonal game just because old raids get deprecated. Most games don't even have raids.
    You kept pointing to needing to do old raids as evidence that tiers weren't always seasons. And we were talking about WoW specifically--defining "seasonality" for all types of games would be a lot more involved and a much bigger conversation.

    In any case, to drop the condescension on both sides, we're seeing the same thing but viewing it differently: you feel that the constant stream of changes means that "seasonality" was a spectrum from "less seasonal" to "more seasonal," whereas I feel that once Wrath created a system where you could do current content to gear up for harder current content, the seasonal model was established and everything since then has just been details about how those seasons take place.

    While I don't agree with your view of it, I can understand how someone would see it that way. But I don't see much point to continuing going back and forth over who's perception of what Blizzard did is actually right and who's arguing just to argue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Not the same model though. It was seasonal but did not involved the same level and activities affected.
    All you're saying is that while, yes, seasons were in place from Wrath, the details of seasons have changed. Which is fine, I agree that Blizzard has made changes to how seasons happen.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I think that's certainly the case as far as Shadowlands goes. I think there is a big problem with bad all of the content feels on its lowest difficulty. LFR in particular is just really, really boring. The mechanics are not fun to engage with. There isn't a sense of urgency to engage with them. They are obtuse unless you go read about the fight.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I never said that a game can be defined as a seasonal game just because old raids get deprecated. Most games don't even have raids.
    ... Uh. Offtopic but, what about this post got this guy banned? His account's been here since 2009 supposedly. Is there a strike system or something here?
    Last edited by Koollan; 2022-10-05 at 08:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Dude A: "lol well if you weren't such a Blizzard Shill™ you'd believe my source!"
    Dude B: ::posts the Webster Dictionary definition of the word 'objective' followed by a 700-word essay about how the WoW community is doomed::
    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPrincess View Post
    shut up idiot

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you think that during the Sunwell patch new players were logging in and then running Sunwell in a week, I don't really know what to tell you.
    New of course not, but don't act like they were running Kara either. If they did it was only for a quick badge farm because loot was so much different back than not because Kara loot was worth using beyond replacing it in T5 stuff while it was current. Yes there are always a weapon or trinket outlier, back than a few more chance of that with all the class specific items. Yes no brand new players were running Sunwell right away, but there are dozens of reasons, like they wouldn't have a Sunwell group already, if they did they would be geared up quickly and not really the rule anyways. Much like a new player wouldn't be in there a person raiding Sunwell outside of badge farming or needing a specific tier item or something unique wouldn't be doing older raids for the gear.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  18. #158
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koollan View Post
    ... Uh. Offtopic but, what about this post got this guy banned? His account's been here since 2009 supposedly. Is there a strike system or something here?
    bans are temporary based on a point based strike system, they are unbanned now.
    discussing moderation is against rules, but just explaining how bans work to you, also that post did not get them banned, you would see a red card in the bottom right if they got infracted for that post.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  19. #159
    I am still baffled aome people look at this hardcore recycled content that we have been playing for years and praise it as something cool.
    Sorry to say it, but more _new_ dungeons are the way to go. Thise are features that can be developed encapsuled, independend from almost all other things. If it's too much work, put more people on it
    DF needs to rescue the game, avarage will not do - and the current plans are below avarage.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    bans are temporary based on a point based strike system, they are unbanned now.
    discussing moderation is against rules, but just explaining how bans work to you, also that post did not get them banned, you would see a red card in the bottom right if they got infracted for that post.
    Thanks for the answer. I also contacted a site admin to see how the moderation system works. I also didn't know about the red card thing. I appreciate the information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Dude A: "lol well if you weren't such a Blizzard Shill™ you'd believe my source!"
    Dude B: ::posts the Webster Dictionary definition of the word 'objective' followed by a 700-word essay about how the WoW community is doomed::
    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPrincess View Post
    shut up idiot

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