SO MANY DUNGEONS in Dragonflight

[Koollan]

With the big list of dungeons slated for M+ (from what we understand), what do you guys think about the timeline for content going forward for this expansion? Do you prefer the pace of having entirely different suites of dungeons for every Season, or would you rather be able to master every single one and continue utilizing that mastery every single season?

[cerin616]

With the big list of dungeons slated for M+ (from what we understand), what do you guys think about the timeline for content going forward for this expansion? Do you prefer the pace of having entirely different suites of dungeons for every Season, or would you rather be able to master every single one and continue utilizing that mastery every single season?

I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.

[Makorus]

I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.

WoW has always had season though.

[Nymrohd]

I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.

It always had for raiding in that we would get new raids and people would largely move to the newest one. With dungeons being a more static pool throughout the expansion, we do need some changes every few months to keep them fresh. If anything I'd say they are not going far enough with rotations and should be rotating dungeon seasons TWICE per raid season.

[Kirbydude65]

I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.

You're about like 8 expansions too late to say that.

[Gurahk]

I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.

Seasons were always a thing, they were just called tiers instead.
Wish they still called them that honestly.

[Lochton]

I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.

Better to have a season 4 than a content drought I'd say. And seasons ain't really new, just the tag is.

[NineSpine]

WoW has always had season though.

"New content releases" and "seasons" are not the same thing.

[Thirtyrock]

"New content releases" and "seasons" are not the same thing.

I'm not sure I see a distinction, please elaborate (I'm serious, not being facetious, how do you see them as different).

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With the big list of dungeons slated for M+ (from what we understand), what do you guys think about the timeline for content going forward for this expansion? Do you prefer the pace of having entirely different suites of dungeons for every Season, or would you rather be able to master every single one and continue utilizing that mastery every single season?

Here's what I would like, ideally
Per expansion -
Tier 1/Season 1 - All new dungeons (hearafter referred to as original)
Tier 2/Season 2 - Keep 25-50% original. Add 25% BRAND NEW dungeons. Add 25% Legacy/Time Walking dungeons.
Tier 3/Season 3 - Keep 25% original. Keep 25% Tier 2 new. Add 25% new. Add 25% Legacy/Time Walking
Tier 4/Season 4 - Keep 25% original. 25% Tier 3 new. 50% Legacy/Time Walking.

[Makorus]

"New content releases" and "seasons" are not the same thing.

How is Season 3 from Shadowlands different to Tier 20 (Tomb of Sargeras) in Legion?

[Lolites]

"New content releases" and "seasons" are not the same thing.

1. raid tier and season is different just in name, for all other purposes its the very same
2. even if we agree with the delusion its not the same, wow LITERALY had seasons since TBC...

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Here's what I would like, ideally
Per expansion -
Tier 1/Season 1 - All new dungeons (hearafter referred to as original)
Tier 2/Season 2 - Keep 25-50% original. Add 25% BRAND NEW dungeons. Add 25% Legacy/Time Walking dungeons.
Tier 3/Season 3 - Keep 25% original. Keep 25% Tier 2 new. Add 25% new. Add 25% Legacy/Time Walking
Tier 4/Season 4 - Keep 25% original. 25% Tier 3 new. 50% Legacy/Time Walking.

with 8+ dungeons on release that would be 2 brand new per season, with that much dungeons (on top of all other content ofc) patches would take so long Shadowlands pacing would feel like hyperfast...

[Raetary]

I think the fact that wow has seasons at all is bad.

They were always a thing.
"Season" is just the fancy new age word for "Tier".

[Celement]

I'm kinda concerned with how few dungeons it has. If they want to do rehashes it should be one new one rehash per dungeon.

[NineSpine]

How is Season 3 from Shadowlands different to Tier 20 (Tomb of Sargeras) in Legion?

It's not, because Legion had the same model as Shadowlands.

[Thirtyrock]

1. raid tier and season is different just in name, for all other purposes its the very same
2. even if we agree with the delusion its not the same, wow LITERALY had seasons since TBC...

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with 8+ dungeons on release that would be 2 brand new per season, with that much dungeons (on top of all other content ofc) patches would take so long Shadowlands pacing would feel like hyperfast...

I mean, I did say "Ideally".

I prefer patches to come out on time, but I would like it even MORE if they also came with 2 new 5 mans in addition to a new raid/s.

[NineSpine]

1. raid tier and season is different just in name, for all other purposes its the very same
2. even if we agree with the delusion its not the same, wow LITERALY had seasons since TBC...

It's not the same. Seasons functionally reset progression for everyone, bringing everyone to a new floor. Releasing new content is just releasing new content. When seasons change, the rewards from existing content changes in order to facilitate the progression reset. Simply releasing new content does not do that.

You are more than welcome to prefer one model to the other, but being hung up on pretending they are the same thing is just weird.

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I'm not sure I see a distinction, please elaborate (I'm serious, not being facetious, how do you see them as different).

I just did for someone else above, but you asked more nicely so I'll provide a nicer explanation:

There's a lot of grey area here, and there will be exceptions and caveats all over, but generally the difference is that seasons are built with a "reset" mentality in mind where everyone is brought to a new floor, while just releasing new content is about expanding what is available. A good comparison would be the current pve seasonal model to the pve model of TBC. Today, when a new raid tier comes out, pretty much all rewards are altered to facilitate moving everyone into the new content and away from the old content from day one of the new patch. The old raid is deprecated entirely by this seasonal reset. In TBC, people were doing Tier 4 to get into Tier 5 to get into Tier 6 throughout the entire expansion, because the newer content may have come with some new more attainable gear to help with progression but it never deprecated the old content entirely. When Sunwell came out, you didn't hit 70 and then just go to Sunwell, you had to progress through the existing content to get to it.

[Thirtyrock]

It's not the same. Seasons functionally reset progression for everyone, bringing everyone to a new floor. Releasing new content is just releasing new content. When seasons change, the rewards from existing content changes in order to facilitate the progression reset. Simply releasing new content does not do that.

You are more than welcome to prefer one model to the other, but being hung up on pretending they are the same thing is just weird.

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I just did for someone else above, but you asked more nicely so I'll provide a nicer explanation:

There's a lot of grey area here, and there will be exceptions and caveats all over, but generally the difference is that seasons are built with a "reset" mentality in mind where everyone is brought to a new floor, while just releasing new content is about expanding what is available. A good comparison would be the current pve seasonal model to the pve model of TBC. Today, when a new raid tier comes out, pretty much all rewards are altered to facilitate moving everyone into the new content and away from the old content from day one of the new patch. The old raid is deprecated entirely by this seasonal reset. In TBC, people were doing Tier 4 to get into Tier 5 to get into Tier 6 throughout the entire expansion, because the newer content may have come with some new more attainable gear to help with progression but it never deprecated the old content entirely. When Sunwell came out, you didn't hit 70 and then just go to Sunwell, you had to progress through the existing content to get to it.

Ok, I see the distinction you're making, but I don't think it's a significant one and I don't think most people are viewing the terms the same way you are, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people using the terms interchangeably.

Since at least ToC, every new content patch has brought new catchup mechanics with it. People made the argument, at the time, that catchup mechanics would destroy old content, even from the same expansion, and they were right, to an extent. But this has been the status quo since ToC. Every new Tier brings new catchup mechanics which make older content, essentially, defunct.

I actually think Season 4 of SL brought us closer to the old way of things than we've been in a LONG time. Fated raids makes the first two raids current content? Amazing, that's a wonderful thing, especially at the end of an expansion. But I still don't think that's a season, the way you are defining the word. In the end, I think your definition is too strict and you will have constant arguments over what is and isn't a season while missing the actual point of people's discussion.

[Makorus]

It's not, because Legion had the same model as Shadowlands.

Right, so you are complaining about something that has been in the game since Wrath, where new content invalidates old content and near enough no gear carries over.

Cool.

[Koollan]

I'd also like to point out that 'seasons' were first implemented into WoW through the PvP system. Tiers were the 'first' seasons system, sure, but the first system actually monikered using 'seasons' was PvP.

Now, since those PvP seasons always coincide with new content (tiers) and raised bars for other content, I would also consider 'seasons' as more or less the new word for 'tiers'. Season 4 is a higher 'tier' than Season 3, the gear that it drops is better. Sure, it's not perfect in that Shadowlands didn't implement even more new content for Season 4 given it was to tide us over for the patch cycle, and perhaps the 'Season' moniker gives Blizzard an excuse or two not to output large content additions at times, hence Season 4 largely being systems changes and additions onto our already existing contents. Though, turning all of our current content into new content is something that's arguably sustainable, and fun for those who enjoy said content.

... but let's be honest. The difference between Seasons and Tiers is extremely minimal other than a simple name change. Tiers is a cooler term for it, though, I will admit that.

[Gasparde]

Bold take:

I don't know and I'm willing to play it out before forming an opinion about it.
Having 4 new and 6 never-before-m+ dungeons in total is plenty - I don't know if having 8 would be the world of a difference.
I could imagine liking the idea of 8 new dungeons with every season. Like, I wasn't particularly hyped about spamming DoS season after season just because the same trinkets kept being op and needed to be refarmed season after season - at least that will not be a thing for at least a year, so yay.

I don't see much point in the "mastering a dungeon" argument. We got to a point of "mastering" Iron Docks pretty fast with pulling 50% trash into wheels within 4 minutes. We also had a year to master shit like Karazhan and Junkyard previously and nowadays we'Re playing these dungeons wildly differently. I have no doubts that Halls of Valor will be a tremendously different experience this time around, that we'll have it pretty much mastered after like 2-3 months and that if they were to bring it back 2 years later... we'd still end up playing it differently again.

I appreciate the risk they're taking and I'm willing to play it out for a season or 2 - and I'm actually really curious what season 3 would then look like, especially with more dungeons coming in during the expansion. Cautiously optimistic.