SO MANY DUNGEONS in Dragonflight

[loras]

If you only did a +5 SD, you lost like 250 points from your overall rating. That's a lot of points if you care about rating and push. (I do)

So no, 15 dungeons per season is way too much.

You're still missing the point that you can just knock down the requirements of KSM while introducing 15 dungeons, while keeping the difficulty of KSM intact.
KSM presently granted at 8 dungeons done at +15 at both tyrannical and fortified? New KSM with 15 dungeons then also requires exactly that.

Point is there are trivially easy workarounds for KSM becoming harder "because" of the addition of more dungeons.

[Celement]

It's not what "other games do for their seasons". It's what a season IS. That's the point. You are basically saying "The word season has a different meaning for wow than everywhere else, so that I can call whatever I want a season". This is like saying "When I eat a hamburger, I call it a salad, therefore it is a salad!"

Wow did not have seasons in vanilla or in TBC or in WoTLK. Period. I don't care what you personally decide to define words as in your head.

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It doesn't mean the same thing. A season has reset mechanics.

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I think the seasonal model makes sense for the game as it stands in 2022. I just don't get why so many people need to rewrite the past and deny changes in the design of the game just to validate their preference for the newer design decisions.

I can get that. I prefer seasonal myself for dungeons and tiered for raids.

My main complaint and it's not a massive one with dragon flight is each season should have 4-5 new dungeons for mythic plus. One for each repeat.

[Smokebleach]

With the big list of dungeons slated for M+ (from what we understand), what do you guys think about the timeline for content going forward for this expansion? Do you prefer the pace of having entirely different suites of dungeons for every Season, or would you rather be able to master every single one and continue utilizing that mastery every single season?

I like the change up, S4 has been quite refreshing. I love going back and doing old dungeons that are brought up alongside current. Keeps things from being stalr

[Koollan]

Isn't there only 4? Or are you counting old content too?

I'm also counting old content. I personally enjoy revamping old content for new purposes. I'm the sort of person who revels in timewalking events because it turns old content 'current' so to speak. Seeing old dungeons (and so many old dungeons) slated for M+ is extremely strong and promising news for me, considering I love consistently fresh content. Dungeons are big for me.

[bloodykiller86]

That's just false. All tiers were highly active during TBC. People who were always at the edge of progression obviously didn't need to go back and run old content, but that doesn't change that every tier was very, very, very active through the entire expansion for the group of people whose progression was at that tier. The catch up gear during Tier 6 took ages to get and functioned more as progression for non-raiders. You could easily get more gear in one night of raiding an old tier than in two weeks of relentlessly grinding out catch up gear.

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I'm saying that in vanilla there was nothing that could be called seasonal. There was just new content added and nothing was ever deprecated. Every expansion after that became more and more seasonal until we get to the current model that is extremely seasonal at its core, which we can probably say started in Legion.

yeah and that ended pretty much in BC to an extent and completely in WoTLK. So idk why you're asking to get rid of something that has existed since forever lol and in BC you could get previous seasons PvP gear for PvE if you wanted. it didn't take that long to get

[NineSpine]

yeah and that ended pretty much in BC to and extent and completely in WoTLK. So idk why you're asking to get rid of something that hasnt existed since forever lol and in BC you could get previous seasons PvP gear for PvE if you wanted. it didn't take that long to get

When did I say to get rid of anything?

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Some do, not all.

Can you name another game that has seasons and no reset mechanics?

[bloodykiller86]

i worded that wrong i fixed it lol

[Koollan]

Can you name another game that has seasons and no reset mechanics?

World of Warcraft.

[NineSpine]

Wow for example lol

I said "another game". You've made it pretty clear the answer is "I can't", and the reason that you can't is because 100% of the the time, a "season" means that there is some kind of reset mechanics. That's what the term exists to describe.

WoW has seasons currently, and they have reset mechanics.

[Koollan]

I said "another game". You've made it pretty clear the answer is "I can't", and the reason that you can't is because 100% of the the time, a "season" means that there is some kind of reset mechanics. That's what the term exists to describe.

WoW has seasons currently, and they have reset mechanics.

Sure, I'll bite.

For all of its faults, Halo Infinite has seasons that do not reset. It's all content that you can still partake in whenever a new season rolls over. In fact, it's a much more traditional 'season' model than WoW has, yet all of its content is readily available.

Akin to WoW. Interesting how that works.

EDIT: I will also take admittance to one thing that changes in WoW's seasons and that will be the dungeon pool. There are certainly merits to keeping one pool of dungeons every single tier change and making the 'same' content relevant every time. Though, I'd wager that the vast majority of players would prefer this cyclical change to dungeon pools. Yes, that takes away a pool of content from a system like M+. Yet we also do not know Blizzard's plans moving forward with all of the dungeons they'll take out of the pool. We have no room to speculate.
On that frame of mind, I can agree with your outlook.

[NineSpine]

Sure, I'll bite.

For all of its faults, Halo Infinite has seasons that do not reset. It's all content that you can still partake in whenever a new season rolls over. In fact, it's a much more traditional 'season' model than WoW has, yet all of its content is readily available.

Akin to WoW. Interesting how that works.

EDIT: I will also take admittance to one thing that changes in WoW's seasons and that will be the dungeon pool. There are certainly merits to keeping one pool of dungeons every single tier change and making the 'same' content relevant every time. Though, I'd wager that the vast majority of players would prefer this cyclical change to dungeon pools. Yes, that takes away a pool of content from a system like M+. Yet we also do not know Blizzard's plans moving forward with all of the dungeons they'll take out of the pool. We have no room to speculate.
On that frame of mind, I can agree with your outlook.

Halo Infinite has a leaderboard and I believe rank reset every season.

[Koollan]

Halo Infinite has a leaderboard and I believe rank reset every season.

That's not exactly a 'gotcha'. You're talking about specifically PvP systems. Which, traditionally, and expectedly, those are necessary to reset.

[apepi1337]

It's not the same. Seasons functionally reset progression for everyone, bringing everyone to a new floor. Releasing new content is just releasing new content. When seasons change, the rewards from existing content changes in order to facilitate the progression reset. Simply releasing new content does not do that.

You are more than welcome to prefer one model to the other, but being hung up on pretending they are the same thing is just weird.

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I just did for someone else above, but you asked more nicely so I'll provide a nicer explanation:

There's a lot of grey area here, and there will be exceptions and caveats all over, but generally the difference is that seasons are built with a "reset" mentality in mind where everyone is brought to a new floor, while just releasing new content is about expanding what is available. A good comparison would be the current pve seasonal model to the pve model of TBC. Today, when a new raid tier comes out, pretty much all rewards are altered to facilitate moving everyone into the new content and away from the old content from day one of the new patch. The old raid is deprecated entirely by this seasonal reset. In TBC, people were doing Tier 4 to get into Tier 5 to get into Tier 6 throughout the entire expansion, because the newer content may have come with some new more attainable gear to help with progression but it never deprecated the old content entirely. When Sunwell came out, you didn't hit 70 and then just go to Sunwell, you had to progress through the existing content to get to it.

You are spot on with your explanation. Honestly not sure what is the better model. I remember when I first started back in the middle of TBC and I hit level 70 I needed to find a guild that ran kara and start to gear. It was difficult to keep players because as some would gear a little faster they would move on to guilds in the next tier and leave us behind. With seasons you can jump right into the current content and stay relevant. From a pros and cons stand point I would say seasons are better then tiers. Once the game reaches a legacy version tiers would be fine because you have an infinite amount of time to gear up. 2 years for each xpac makes seasons more practical.

[NineSpine]

That's not exactly a 'gotcha'. You're talking about specifically PvP systems. Which, traditionally, and expectedly, those are necessary to reset.

I didn't use a pvp game as an example. You did.

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You are spot on with your explanation. Honestly not sure what is the better model. I remember when I first started back in the middle of TBC and I hit level 70 I needed to find a guild that ran kara and start to gear. It was difficult to keep players because as some would gear a little faster they would move on to guilds in the next tier and leave us behind. With seasons you can jump right into the current content and stay relevant. From a pros and cons stand point I would say seasons are better then tiers. Once the game reaches a legacy version tiers would be fine because you have an infinite amount of time to gear up. 2 years for each xpac makes seasons more practical.

Yeah, I pretty much agree, but I would like to see them find better ways to keep off content relevant. I think that ship has sailed though.

[Koollan]

I didn't use a pvp game as an example. You did.

Sure, but I was referring to the PvE(?) content that its seasons provide. The missions people complete and, largely, the content that people partake in. There is no reset there. That's the crux of it. There is only additional content with no reset and no obligation or 'floor' everybody is forcefully raised towards.

[NineSpine]

Sure, but I was referring to the PvE(?) content that its seasons provide. The missions people complete and, largely, the content that people partake in. There is no reset there. That's the crux of it. There is only additional content with no reset and no obligation or 'floor' everybody is forcefully raised towards.

I haven't played it, but reading about it it sounds like it's still focused on the multiplayer modes, which get a rank reset, and there is also a new battlepass that you start from level 1 in. I didn't say "Everything resets 100%". I said that a season contains reset mechanics.

[apepi1337]

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Yeah, I pretty much agree, but I would like to see them find better ways to keep off content relevant. I think that ship has sailed though.

I think thats where fated raids comes into play. The cycle might be too fast for it and there is no progression from the oldest raid to newest but they might be on to something.

[Unholyground]

Wasn't there supposed to be a new special dungeon that was similar to Torghast that had random layouts? They got really quiet about that and never mentioned it again lol.

[Koollan]

I think thats where fated raids comes into play. The cycle might be too fast for it and there is no progression from the oldest raid to newest but they might be on to something.

I'm extremely excited for a system like Fated raids to be carried forward using a Timewalking-like system, or anything similar to how it was handled before. I think this both mirrors and complements M+ dungeons in many ways and can genuinely be a valuable addition as an 'ultimate' difficulty-type - scaling old raids onto current values and offering tier-appropriate gear. It certainly would need some iteration to get right, but I think it's a very valuable asset to what they've been pushing towards ever since the Legion M+ test.

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Wasn't there supposed to be a new special dungeon that was similar to Torghast that had random layouts? They got really quiet about that and never mentioned it again lol.

I don't recall this, do you have a source? If so I'm very interested in what they had to say about it.

[huth]

That's just false. All tiers were highly active during TBC.

Because people couldn't manage to progress beyond them, not because anybody wanted to. As soon as that was no longer the case, this folded faster than a card house in a hurricane. Besides, the same was not the case in Vanilla. TBC is an aberation, not the norm.