RIP Personal Loot

[Lochton]

Well, the current system has people keeping stuff they don't need ... even when they WANT to give it away.

So this new (aka old) system is - by definition - an improvement on that.

That is more greed on their behalf or laziness. The trading system doesn't always bug but sadly at times do but I see many who put things for /roll.

[h4rr0d]

I just don’t get, why they are so hellbent on removing player choice (actually I do have an idea, but that idea would likely net me an infraction and possibly derail this thread).

PL is great for true pugs. PL with unrestricted trading might be even better, but could possibly introduce a lot of drama. Group loot is master loot with extra steps for GDKP and guild runs and will be massively abused by bringing a group of friends that are going to hoover loot for someone in PUGs.

/tinfoil hat: Blizz sees the massive success of GDKP runs in classic and the resulting sales of gold and wants their share of the cake as people will buy tokens en masse if GDKP becomes the norm in DF.

[Alcsaar]

Removing personal loot from raids has completely turned me off from ever considering doing ANY kind of pug raid, which is really sad. Can't wait for every raid having to deal with people needing on everything they can to use it for bartering, or needing on shit for their friends.

[Biomega]

Indeed. Two Rolls of ~36%, gives you an Average of 45,45% of seeing at least one Item you can roll on.

But that's only for strictly two items. Since your chances keep going up per item with GL, but they stay a fixed chance with PL, that's a bit of a bias in favor of PL to only look at very small groups (2 drops).

[BeepBoo]

This is the true reason that many people prefer LFR.
But Blizzard doesn't get it.

I'd wager the reason people prefer LFR is the fact that they can auto-queue for it and don't have to actually interact much with anyone while also being able to do it on their own schedule while ALSO getting a shot at loot even if they're bottom tier performers.

[Relapses]

I just don’t get, why they are so hellbent on removing player choice (actually I do have an idea, but that idea would likely net me an infraction and possibly derail this thread).

PL is great for true pugs. PL with unrestricted trading might be even better, but could possibly introduce a lot of drama. Group loot is master loot with extra steps for GDKP and guild runs and will be massively abused by bringing a group of friends that are going to hoover loot for someone in PUGs.

/tinfoil hat: Blizz sees the massive success of GDKP runs in classic and the resulting sales of gold and wants their share of the cake as people will buy tokens en masse if GDKP becomes the norm in DF.

Maybe Blizzard's intentions aren't nefarious and they simply wish to restore agency to loot distribution while also attempting to preserve the approachability of PuG raids. These two ideas are on diametrically opposing ends of the spectrum so any half-measure like this is going to infuriate the extreme ends of either demographic. While I don't think this is the best possible solution (the choice for PL should still exist), it is a ten-thousand percent improvement for organized guild runs and this should not be understated.

Skewing the discussion straight into conspiracy land with braindead remarks about "DAE WoW token sales????" is completely bullshit and you know it.

[Tiwack]

Rather than tweak things they just trash one system for another, typical /yawn.

[LanToaster]

But that's only for strictly two items. Since your chances keep going up per item with GL, but they stay a fixed chance with PL, that's a bit of a bias in favor of PL to only look at very small groups (2 drops).

Indeed, but did you also think about the Increased Competition for the Loot?
If you go with 20 People Raid for 4 Items, the Odds of seeing Items to roll for might rise a bit. But usually also the Competition, And the more Often you need to Roll, the worse are your Statistical Odds.

But you are Right, basically in terms of "Chance" this comes down to: "Do you prefer a Flat Loot chance?" or an Entirely Unpredictable Chances.

[Tiwack]

Rather than smarter loot we altogether just appear to be going in circles like it has to be one or the other with zero player choice -.- ...

[jeezusisacasual]

Any guild worth their salt will give items that are deemed best in slot or numerical upgrades for example Warlocks are strong and the staff will gain the warlock 1,000 dps vs the mage who is already middle of the pack 700 dps. The idea that you had a choice in loot is the greatest lie people still believe. More problems will be if blizzard balances around this idea that the gear will go to the strongest performing specs / classes but i think after the nightmare that SoTF raiding they will likely make the fights more relaxed.

[Biomega]

Indeed, but did you also think about the Increased Competition for the Loot?

Yes, but they don't necessarily scale the same. And that scaling is crucial to GL, things can vary WILDLY between the 1/30 chance of a full raid all rolling on the same item to the 1/1 guarantee of an item no one else wants. You can't just pick a number that fits the narrative of "it's a lower chance than PL".

[SuperKarateDeathCar]

I don't really mind the change but I don't understand why they wouldn't just give us both options. Blizz is weird sometimes

[h4rr0d]

Maybe Blizzard's intentions aren't nefarious and they simply wish to restore agency to loot distribution while also attempting to preserve the approachability of PuG raids. These two ideas are on diametrically opposing ends of the spectrum so any half-measure like this is going to infuriate the extreme ends of either demographic. While I don't think this is the best possible solution (the choice for PL should still exist), it is a ten-thousand percent improvement for organized guild runs and this should not be understated.

Skewing the discussion straight into conspiracy land with braindead remarks about "DAE WoW token sales????" is completely bullshit and you know it.

Yeah, I want to believe it’s an attempt to restore player agency, but then, why not go all the way and allow ML instead? Any half serious guild will have an “all pass” policy and do some kind of ML setup anyway and rolling for an item in a GDKP run will result in removal from the group. In this context, group loot just invites trouble and opens door for toxic behavior (be it ninjaing or needing on everything for any of the reasons stated above) - something they want to get rid of (rightly so).

And yeah, obviously. Hence the tinfoil hat.

Edit: Also, for organized groups, PL with unrestricted trading is functionally equivalent to GL.

[Relapses]

Yeah, I want to believe it’s an attempt to restore player agency, but then, why not go all the way and allow ML instead? Any half serious guild will have an “all pass” policy and do some kind of ML setup anyway and rolling for an item in a GDKP run will result in removal from the group. In this context, group loot just invites trouble and opens door for toxic behavior (be it ninjaing or needing on everything for any of the reasons stated above) - something they want to get rid of (rightly so).

And yeah, obviously. Hence the tinfoil hat.

Edit: Also, for organized groups, PL with unrestricted trading is functionally equivalent to GL.

We're essentially agreeing with each other minus your weird tin foil hat theory. On that note: Correlation isn't causation. Just because they could indirectly benefit from something doesn't mean they're designing it specifically for that. This is the kind of weird assbackwards logic you hear when people get mad that {x class} gets buffed/nerfed. (See: "Oh, Blizzard just wants to sell FotM boosts!" or "Blizzard wants {x class} to suck so the only choice they have is to buy boosts!") On some level you can blame pretty much every single design choice Blizzard does (or doesn't) make on the token which is why I find arguments that rely on its existence to be exceptionally low value.

[Witchblade77]

We played with normal DKP not with Gold and we had minimum points for gear like 50 Points for small items, 100 for chest, legs etc., 150 for rings and trinkets and 250 for weapons as minimum.
And then you get 10 Points per bosskill and 10 for being on time.

yes, I figured as much. which is why I explained that its not how GDKP works. and yeah, its not perfect, as people pointed out - there are some people who bid solely to jack up the eventual buyout price, but this is where you also decide how much you are willing to pay and how badly do you think you need something.

I HAVE played with regular DKP as well and had similar issues to yours with it, which is why I've always preferred GDKP to the limited points.

but... as I said.. group loot has no place in LFR IMO. I've had plenty of runs with group loot where I would get zero loot. nothing for DE or vendor or trade - nothing at all, because I would either lose the rolls, none of the drops were for my class, or in case of DKP runs - didn't have enough DKP to buy the upgrades. with personal loot I would at least get something in every raid/dungeon. ah well.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd wager the reason people prefer LFR is the fact that they can auto-queue for it and don't have to actually interact much with anyone while also being able to do it on their own schedule while ALSO getting a shot at loot even if they're bottom tier performers.

pretty much... though not having to worry about someone else deciding who does or doesn't get loot is a nice bonus too.

[Ielenia]

The right people are mad, so this is probably a good change.

"The right people are mad..."

... And the wrong people are happy.

The removal of Personal Loot has to be one of the dumbest thing Blizzard ever did in this game, in my opinion.

[Aresk]

Have they clarified if loot will still be smart? Or will bows now drop in groups with no hunter, warglaives in groups with no DH, cloth in groups with no priests/mages/warlocks, etc.?

[Stickiler]

Have they clarified if loot will still be smart? Or will bows now drop in groups with no hunter, warglaives in groups with no DH, cloth in groups with no priests/mages/warlocks, etc.?

The loot will not be smart. You will get items that drop which nobody can equip, with the idea being it "promotes a diverse raid team"

[TbouncerT]

You are not right though blizz make dumb decisions all the time, with group loot you may not get an upgrade for weeks but with personal loot you can get upgrades each raid most of the time and loot can still be traded and pugs will make thier own rules and you wont get loot at all. Personal loot has always been a good decision to remove the fighting for loot and players getting upset a player gets something.

Not really, they just moved getting mad at players to getting mad at the game. No matter what they do will satisfy people, as some people will always find something to complain about. Even if Blizzard makes dumb decisions, so does the player base. The best thing they've done here was removed the trading restrictions. Had too many situations in our raid that would have been a non-issue come DF.

[h4rr0d]

The loot will not be smart. You will get items that drop which nobody can equip, with the idea being it "promotes a diverse raid team"

Do you have a quote for that, or is this just a jab at the current state of gaming industry? Considering we have 12 classes, even if you go all in in diversity, you won’t be able to have everyone in a 10man raid.