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  1. #121
    So this will be good for guild groups. It solves every criticism from guild only players.

    It will be terrible, however, for true PUGs and PUGs in guild groups. There is a history in this game, and every MMO, where group loot is employed with PUGs, and it turns into degenerate behaviour. For example: guild leaders will tell guildies to roll need on everything you can, and then we'll just trade it to guildies only.

    Personal Loot wasn't perfect, and it really just needed to be iterated upon more. Group Loot? It's as if no one in Blizzard actually PUGs.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Yeah. If you don't want a random pug to get loot you should not invite them. It's as easy as that.
    They are welcome to all the farm loot and non needed or Off spec loot that drops which in most guild groups will be the vast majority of the loot, but the main items such as DST and Skull were always reserved for the guild as they typically were higher in demand and should go to the guild.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Yeah. If you don't want a random pug to get loot you should not invite them. It's as easy as that.
    And then "nobody is inviting me to groups and I don't wanna join a guild" happens

    I think the new improved system will work out worst case lfr gets personal loot because all of the people saying "noooo I should have won that"

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    So this will be good for guild groups. It solves every criticism from guild only players.

    It will be terrible, however, for true PUGs and PUGs in guild groups. There is a history in this game, and every MMO, where group loot is employed with PUGs, and it turns into degenerate behaviour. For example: guild leaders will tell guildies to roll need on everything you can, and then we'll just trade it to guildies only.

    Personal Loot wasn't perfect, and it really just needed to be iterated upon more. Group Loot? It's as if no one in Blizzard actually PUGs.
    It's also bad for raids like ours that had a lot of leather wearers. Because Blizzard decided we needed a 5th leather wearing class. Then they try to turn the mail wearers against us, "you mail wearers know how that feels!" It's nonsense. We don't need armor types. Armor is magic; it could change shape, size, and yes armor type to suit the character. Everyone could use every piece of loot if Blizzard wanted it to. The loot distribution problems are of their making. OK, so they want to make it scarce to keep people playing. Fine. Give us options. Don't take away the system you added because you thought Demon Hunters would bring you madz subs and suddenly too many leather wearers.

  5. #125
    This is unfortunate.
    I`m fine with getting less loot overall, as long as it`s mine when it drops.
    I can choose to keep or trade it as i see fit, it`s completely fine.

    Might as well just stick to M+, until they introduce it for that content too.
    But then i might just look to another game for group PvE content.

  6. #126
    I just do not understand why not both? Is it because they are afraid people would just pug raids instead? Let people have choice and options and actually allow us to just buy gear with valor while they are at it again so we can set a end date for BIS and be done for the patch.

  7. #127
    Fluffy Kitten Aurora's Avatar
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    Such an inexplicably backwards move, it's as if they forgot all the community behaviour reasons that necessitated personal loot in the first place.

    All of the visibility issues and trading issues could have been resolved with minor changes to personal loot but instead they've scrapped everything and put in some halfway solution that seems incredibly open to abuse. Worse than that they're actually forcing it upon the player with no option to adjust.

    No direction from Blizzard at all in this game, every step forward they make seems to get randomly reversed a few expansions later.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by ntlntl View Post
    From what I read, it's like an open PL system. Imagine the loot shown is someone's PL item. Your item is open for others with the same loot type. Then others' are also open for you to roll. It's not like everyone can roll on anything.
    And some of the PL is for people who are not even in the raid, leading to some pieces that can't be used by anyone in the group. That's my second biggest issue with the system, after the PUG problem.

  9. #129
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    I logged into MMO champ for a quick reminder of why I was skipping DF, and boy did this thread hit the nail on the head. Personal loot has it's issues, but it's better than basically any other system for pugs, Blizzard is taking a step back by removing it as an option. It was added for a good reason, and none of those things have changed, the community is still full of shitters who will exploit Master loot. This likely won't push people to join guilds like Blizzard is hoping, they just won't raid or quit.

    There really is no hope for this company. Everything I've heard about OW2 is awful, DF has been looking worse and worse. End of an era.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    I logged into MMO champ for a quick reminder of why I was skipping DF, and boy did this thread hit the nail on the head. Personal loot has it's issues, but it's better than basically any other system for pugs, Blizzard is taking a step back by removing it as an option. It was added for a good reason, and none of those things have changed, the community is still full of shitters who will exploit Master loot. This likely won't push people to join guilds like Blizzard is hoping, they just won't raid or quit.

    There really is no hope for this company. Everything I've heard about OW2 is awful, DF has been looking worse and worse. End of an era.
    Sounds like a community solution's been provided for a community problem. See you when DF releases.
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  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    I logged into MMO champ for a quick reminder of why I was skipping DF, and boy did this thread hit the nail on the head. Personal loot has it's issues, but it's better than basically any other system for pugs, Blizzard is taking a step back by removing it as an option. It was added for a good reason, and none of those things have changed, the community is still full of shitters who will exploit Master loot. This likely won't push people to join guilds like Blizzard is hoping, they just won't raid or quit.

    There really is no hope for this company. Everything I've heard about OW2 is awful, DF has been looking worse and worse. End of an era.
    The problem with leaving it in is it wouldnt be used. Don't ask me why but in wod people would fight over getting into runs with reserves and shunned personal loot.

    Made a pretty penny reserving boes that way.

  12. #132
    Practically 80% of pugs in Naxxramas pugs during WotLK were with ninja-looting insta-quitting raid "leaders". People should always know that before commenting on anything on the issue.

    In contrast: if you are a guild without pugs in it: and you EVEN CARE if it's group loot in terms of ninjaing: fix your guild first before you even think of that technicality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    The problem with leaving it in is it wouldnt be used. Don't ask me why but in wod people would fight over getting into runs with reserves and shunned personal loot.

    Made a pretty penny reserving boes that way.
    You are completely wrong. 1 single instance of ninja-looting would make people demand personal loot. I do not say this out of guess work (I lived the ninja-looting era of the actual-WotLK era).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    For example: guild leaders will tell guildies to roll need on everything you can
    And I'd like to add and stress: that does NOT mean it only happens if a guild leader is explicitly telling you to do it.
    I've been in guilds with EXTREMELY nice raid leaders who never asked for that and it still happened.
    Why: because people in the guild do it on their own (either openly or in whispers in small groups).

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Practically 80% of pugs in Naxxramas pugs during WotLK were with ninja-looting insta-quitting raid "leaders". People should always know that before commenting on anything on the issue.

    In contrast: if you are a guild without pugs in it: and you EVEN CARE if it's group loot in terms of ninjaing: fix your guild first before you even think of that technicality.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are completely wrong. 1 single instance of ninja-looting would make people demand personal loot. I do not say this out of guess work (I lived the ninja-looting era of the actual-WotLK era).

    - - - Updated - - -


    And I'd like to add and stress: that does NOT mean it only happens if a guild leader is explicitly telling you to do it.
    I've been in guilds with EXTREMELY nice raid leaders who never asked for that and it still happened.
    Why: because people in the guild do it on their own (either openly or in whispers in small groups).
    Nah we had this play out in wod. Experienced raiders form groups and snap up all the boes while personal loot groups had hour long wait times and usually fell apart.

    This was in wod mind you. Games become more carry focused since then now they would likely pay gold and have loot reserved from them.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    I just do not understand why not both? Is it because they are afraid people would just pug raids instead? Let people have choice and options and actually allow us to just buy gear with valor while they are at it again so we can set a end date for BIS and be done for the patch.
    Group Loot and Personal Loot use different Loot tables and I believe one of the reasons is the game just can't handle both, definitely not in a mix match kind of way. But if you join a raid with GL, you can't go to a raid with PL after that. Issues like that.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Group Loot and Personal Loot use different Loot tables and I believe one of the reasons is the game just can't handle both, definitely not in a mix match kind of way. But if you join a raid with GL, you can't go to a raid with PL after that. Issues like that.
    I recall when they had the option with more loot per person with personal loot selected and yea i just researched it, you got more with personal loot but was the default setting at the start of BFA.

    Battle for Azeroth Patch 8.0.1 (2018-07-17): The ability to change loot modes has been removed. Personal loot is now the sole option in all situations.

    Warlords of Draenor Hotfix (2015-09-21): Fixed an issue that could cause characters to receive loot for the wrong class in Personal Loot mode on Mythic difficulty.

    Warlords of Draenor Patch 6.2.0 (2015-06-23): Rather than treating loot chances independently for each player—sometimes yielding only one or even zero items for a group—we’ll use a system similar to Group Loot to determine how many items a boss will award based on eligible group size. As a result, groups will receive a much more predictable number of drops when they defeat a boss. We're also increasing the overall rate of reward for Personal Loot, giving players more items overall to offset the fact that Personal Loot rewards can’t be distributed among group member

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Loo...xt=Patch%201.7.


    They literally are upset that people are questioning their view of the game it seems this along with other changes stink of " we know better then you " so we will make it annoying as possible while kicking and screaming. As an auditor i love wiping the smug look off of peoples faces this situation would be a great one to do it.
    Last edited by jeezusisacasual; 2022-10-12 at 03:50 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    Nah we had this play out in wod. Experienced raiders form groups and snap up all the boes while personal loot groups had hour long wait times and usually fell apart.

    This was in wod mind you. Games become more carry focused since then now they would likely pay gold and have loot reserved from them.
    That can only make sense if "pugs" are the highest level premades that down bosses most pugs can not (e.g. pugs that can do mythic raiding before the raid nerfs).
    Pugs who can do up to full heroic raiding don't require any guilds; you can even do it yourself; start a group and know how to invite only good players.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    I just do not understand why not both? Is it because they are afraid people would just pug raids instead? Let people have choice and options and actually allow us to just buy gear with valor while they are at it again so we can set a end date for BIS and be done for the patch.
    Their reasoning for no personal loot is that it created some degenerate playstyles like armor or class/spec stacking to maximize the chance of getting BIS in split raids. They don't want people to get loot too fast. With shadowlands they reduced the amount of loot a group could get and people didn't like it. They upped it to 4 pieces for a man group and people still didn't like it so now they bump it up to 5 pieces for 20 man but loot is completely random. Could be 5x tank trinkets or 3 bows and 2 cloth bracers with only one hunter in the group. So now there's lots of loot in the raid and they emphazise that your raid comp should have one of each class for their raid utility or buff and no loot being wasted.

    Their goal is to have seasons last for about 20 weeks and want you to play for those 20 weeks and have most of the stuff you want by the end of the season and not earlier.

    Thing is that they had a working system to keep people playing in legion. Back in legion we got a new patch every 77 days or roughly 8 weeks so there always was something new to do as soon as the old content got boring. At the moment we see a reduction in raid and m+ participation after 8-10 weeks (based on the amount of logs on warcraft logs and reported keys on raider.io). So instead of trying to stretch out their content for 20 weeks with changes to loot and adding creation catalyst and something like dinars to make the system better later on, they should just release more content more often.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by lordjust View Post
    goal is to have seasons last for about 20 weeks and want you to play for those 20 weeks and have most of the stuff you want by the end of the season and not earlier.
    if a dev is reading this, that's how you lose subs.

  19. #139
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    The problem with leaving it in is it wouldnt be used. Don't ask me why but in wod people would fight over getting into runs with reserves and shunned personal loot.

    Made a pretty penny reserving boes that way.
    That's why you simply don't allow pugs an option, if the group isn't 90%+ from a single guild then sorry, it's personal loot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gramlen View Post
    Sounds like a community solution's been provided for a community problem. See you when DF releases.
    No, you won't. I quit for 3/4s of BFA and played for a whole, single month in SL. The game is in the dumpster now, and if Blizzards idea of improvement is stepping backwards then it's not going to go anywhere. There's always a slim hope it could somehow improve, but at this point I really doubt it's going to happen.

  20. #140
    Legendary! Vargur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    While I agree that personal loot has a place as a great system for pugs, I couldn't be happier to see Blizzard make the right decision to remove it entirely.

    I've argued this for over 4 years with people here, feels great to be right.
    Except they've also remove PL for LFR also, which is idiotic.

    Also, leave PL in-game, as a choice even for organised raiding.
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