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  1. #301
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Apparently by increasing the mythic+ vault to 18 instead of 15 lmao.

    That'll get more tanks for sure!!!
    I mean maybe this will make it hard enough that some people just drop M+.

  2. #302
    Remove the timers from mythic+. That will release the tension placed on everyone, especially tanks and healers. Affixes are fine, put in more mobs, bosses, harder pulls, tighter mechanics and whatever else to make it harder. For me as a healer the go go go mentality because all is on a timer is what puts me off the most. There is no time to communicate, learn and progress. All must be done in a single attempt or be kicked. Timers are a piss poor lazy way to make stuff harder.

  3. #303
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean maybe this will make it hard enough that some people just drop M+.
    Good chance on that happening.
    Subarashii chin chin mono
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  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caradras View Post
    Remove the timers from mythic+. That will release the tension placed on everyone, especially tanks and healers. Affixes are fine, put in more mobs, bosses, harder pulls, tighter mechanics and whatever else to make it harder. For me as a healer the go go go mentality because all is on a timer is what puts me off the most. There is no time to communicate, learn and progress. All must be done in a single attempt or be kicked. Timers are a piss poor lazy way to make stuff harder.
    Why ask to remove instead of asking to add a mode without a timer? Seriously, what is this mentality? There are people who enjoy the timer, enjoy the achievement of pushing and it definitely is required to create the gameplay that exists at high level keys.
    This isn't just about WoW, this is about people's attitude in life in general. If someone else is enjoying something, how does that harm you? FFS grow up.

    Absolutely would love a separate mode of M+ that has increased difficulty but does not have a timer. I've said it before, add an Epic mode that is untimed, has the difficulty of e.g. Mythic 9, 15, 21 and gives equivalent rewards to Mythic 6, 12, 18. Add a weekly lockout to it like Base Mythic has and you have 8 different +21 runs to complete at your leisure with friends or PuGs through the week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Good chance on that happening.
    Which is probably for the best. The huge clump of people doing only 15s is the main reason M+ PuGing has such a bad rap. The social experience below and above 15 is MUCH better.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Why ask to remove instead of asking to add a mode without a timer? Seriously, what is this mentality? There are people who enjoy the timer, enjoy the achievement of pushing and it definitely is required to create the gameplay that exists at high level keys.
    This isn't just about WoW, this is about people's attitude in life in general. If someone else is enjoying something, how does that harm you? FFS grow up.
    Wel excuse me if hurt your feelings by having a different opinion. Why dont you grow up, by feeling attacked and swearing over someone else his thoughts.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Which is probably for the best. The huge clump of people doing only 15s is the main reason M+ PuGing has such a bad rap. The social experience below and above 15 is MUCH better.
    the people doing M+ purely for Vault will keep doing M+ purely for Vault because they have no alternative for the gear. By changing it from +15 to +18 your not going to make pugging less toxic, but more because the same crappy people will still be running a now more difficult dungeon.

    If you want M+ pugging to become less toxic you need to do the opposite and make it easier, not harder.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Caradras View Post
    Wel excuse me if hurt your feelings by having a different opinion. Why dont you grow up, by feeling attacked and swearing over someone else his thoughts.
    It's not about you having an opinion (asking for an additional mode with no timer is fine); it's about you not caring about the opinions of others. Like he said, plenty of people enjoy the timer, and I guess you just don't give a damn, because your solution to have fun is all about taking the fun away from someone else.

  8. #308
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caradras View Post
    Wel excuse me if hurt your feelings by having a different opinion. Why dont you grow up, by feeling attacked and swearing over someone else his thoughts.
    But this isn't an opinion. You'd be sharing an opinion if you said "I don't like M+ having a timer". In no way does that opinion logically lead directly and only to "The timer should be removed". That is your CHOICE. And your choice is to get what you'd like by taking away from others instead of by asking for what you want. Instead of something that can lead to a constructive discussion you immediately attack the gameplay of many other players. Instead of getting people to consider what you want, you force them to defend their choice of gameplay. That's just not a smart way to ask for change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    the people doing M+ purely for Vault will keep doing M+ purely for Vault because they have no alternative for the gear. By changing it from +15 to +18 your not going to make pugging less toxic, but more because the same crappy people will still be running a now more difficult dungeon.

    If you want M+ pugging to become less toxic you need to do the opposite and make it easier, not harder.
    I think those people will fail multiple times at +18 and quit it.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think those people will fail multiple times at +18 and quit it.
    Or they keep trying and get more and more toxic.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Or they keep trying and get more and more toxic.
    Sure, and something tells me the first season of DF will be an unfortunate experience because of it. But they will eventually quit if they keep failing. PuGs cannot carry you through an 18, you'd need actual boosters for that (oh wait, another thing that helps with boosting!)

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Sure, and something tells me the first season of DF will be an unfortunate experience because of it. But they will eventually quit if they keep failing. PuGs cannot carry you through an 18, you'd need actual boosters for that (oh wait, another thing that helps with boosting!)
    Assuming their collective wails don't make Blizzard revert it, like they have generally done previously when dungeons were to hard.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Sure, and something tells me the first season of DF will be an unfortunate experience because of it. But they will eventually quit if they keep failing. PuGs cannot carry you through an 18, you'd need actual boosters for that (oh wait, another thing that helps with boosting!)
    Such a take we can save wow by shoving undesirables from my game...or we can change them cash

  13. #313
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Such a take we can save wow by shoving undesirables from my game...or we can change them cash
    I mean that's the core revenue loop for Blizzard, especially with SL and expect it to get even crazier with DF professions. Spend tons of gold to progress, sell boosts to make the gold back.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Such a take we can save wow by shoving undesirables from my game...or we can change them cash
    I find "shoving undesirables out of my game" almost always leads to large groups of players quitting, devs putting in less and less resources because the dwindling player count doesn't make it worth it and the game then dying out while people still run around shouting that everything would become perfect is only more undesirables were chased away.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  15. #315
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Assuming their collective wails don't make Blizzard revert it, like they have generally done previously when dungeons were to hard.
    But dungeons will not be too hard, just the upper level that rewards Mythic loot will actually be at about the challenge of an entry level Mythic boss. Which is great imo. Just add Valor and let people who clear e.g. 25s be able to upgrade their loot all the way to Raszageth loot.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Caradras View Post
    Remove the timers from mythic+. That will release the tension placed on everyone, especially tanks and healers. Affixes are fine, put in more mobs, bosses, harder pulls, tighter mechanics and whatever else to make it harder. For me as a healer the go go go mentality because all is on a timer is what puts me off the most. There is no time to communicate, learn and progress. All must be done in a single attempt or be kicked. Timers are a piss poor lazy way to make stuff harder.
    Yes, this right here. I love the idea of M+, but the Timer is what kills it for me. If there was no Timer I would actually make an attempt to do M+.

  17. #317
    I think tanking in WoW is too much work. I also play FFXIV not savage raid but I do ulimate raids and also the random and I tank heal and dps depending on my mood. Tanking is very straightforward in FFXIV there is no % count for mobs, and there are fewer mechanics tanks have to look out for, Also all the router is the same there are no shortcuts or mobs you have or can avoid. That's comparing dungeons to dungeons. Now in raids I think both FFXIV and WoW is more of less the same.

    So why would I want to tank for dungeons in WOW when I have a laundry list of things to do and remember and be the person to be responsbility for. Then you have the toxic community. One mistake and people cuss out at you. In FFXIV people are so chill even with multiple wipes no one cares people try to make it work.

    If WoW want people to tank more:

    -Take less responsibility off the tanks. Design dungeons that are more linear with no mobs you can skip and make it so that to get 100% trash you simply kill all the trash and boss in each dungeon.

    -Make dps take more responsibility make so their interupt is on a short CD vs tanks or healers who have a much longer CD on interupt so DPS is to one to interupt or make it so mbs don't have reteruptable abilities that hits hard. That way tank don't have to worry as much.

    - Come done hard on the player. Ban any form or hrassment clean house. Make so if you are going to an a hole or a jerk in a group you are going to get ban. Lot's people want to learn to tank but you have other players who outright treat them so bad they just give up.

    -Come up with mechanics that isn't so harsh on melee or tanks in general Look at the affix Bursting, Sanguine, Spiteful, Explosive, Grievous, Necrotic all affect melee heavily and as a tank I hate dealing with it. Make some next affix that affect range maybe? Necrotic is so bad so tank

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    As someone who tanks in FF and doesn't in WoW. It again comes down to the community.

    In WoW if i mess up I'm the scum of the earth and shouldn't have been born.

    In FF I've been told I'm not pulling fast enough like twice...in a year.

    That said, FF is also very strong on teaching you the fight rather than expect you to read a guide or learn by wiping. If there's a game design effect I think its how the game communicates with the player. A WoW tank needs to know everything, while an FF tank just needs to observe his or her surroundings.
    I love tanking FFXIV. So much fun is straight forward. Even if a mistake is made it won't kill you. It might be boring to others but the linear design of the dungeon means I don't have to count % or which route to take. Raids is also fun for normal you don't die if you make a mistake or two sure you get a debuff but it won't kill out unless you keep doing it. In umilate raids sure it gets a bit harder but again is fun content. Is the community. They don't get mad over a wipe or leave people are more relax and yes lalafel is the best.
    Last edited by sponge5307; 2022-10-06 at 05:42 PM.

  18. #318
    Untill blizzard starts actually putting thought into dungeon layout the tank problem will remain a problem forever on end. They know how players work and how they handle dungeons, yet still do nothing about the "Avoid as much as possible MOVE MOVE MOVE" dungeon design which breeds such a god awful community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    I think tanking in WoW is too much work. I also play FFXIV not savage raid but I do ulimate raids and also the random and I tank heal and dps depending on my mood. Tanking is very straightforward in FFXIV there is no % count for mobs, and there are fewer mechanics tanks have to look out for, Also all the router is the same there are no shortcuts or mobs you have or can avoid. That's comparing dungeons to dungeons. Now in raids I think both FFXIV and WoW is more of less the same.

    So why would I want to tank for dungeons in WOW when I have a laundry list of things to do and remember and be the person to be responsbility for. Then you have the toxic community. One mistake and people cuss out at you. In FFXIV people are so chill even with multiple wipes no one cares people try to make it work.

    If WoW want people to tank more:

    -Take less responsibility off the tanks. Design dungeons that are more linear with no mobs you can skip and make it so that to get 100% trash you simply kill all the trash and boss in each dungeon.

    -Make dps take more responsibility make so their interupt is on a short CD vs tanks or healers who have a much longer CD on interupt so DPS is to one to interupt or make it so mbs don't have reteruptable abilities that hits hard. That way tank don't have to worry as much.

    - Come done hard on the player. Ban any form or hrassment clean house. Make so if you are going to an a hole or a jerk in a group you are going to get ban. Lot's people want to learn to tank but you have other players who outright treat them so bad they just give up.

    -Come up with mechanics that isn't so harsh on melee or tanks in general Look at the affix Bursting, Sanguine, Spiteful, Explosive, Grievous, Necrotic all affect melee heavily and as a tank I hate dealing with it. Make some next affix that affect range maybe? Necrotic is so bad so tank

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    I love tanking FFXIV. So much fun is straight forward. Even if a mistake is made it won't kill you. It might be boring to others but the linear design of the dungeon means I don't have to count % or which route to take. Raids is also fun for normal you don't die if you make a mistake or two sure you get a debuff but it won't kill out unless you keep doing it. In umilate raids sure it gets a bit harder but again is fun content. Is the community. They don't get mad over a wipe or leave people are more relax and yes lalafel is the best.
    WoW dungeons are just as linear. The only difference is that WoW's linear is community enforced and GOD HELP YOU IF YOU DONT KNOW THE PATH.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Untill blizzard starts actually putting thought into dungeon layout the tank problem will remain a problem forever on end. They know how players work and how they handle dungeons, yet still do nothing about the "Avoid as much as possible MOVE MOVE MOVE" dungeon design which breeds such a god awful community.

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    WoW dungeons are just as linear. The only difference is that WoW's linear is community enforced and GOD HELP YOU IF YOU DONT KNOW THE PATH.
    This is actually a good point. There are a lot of places where it is really finicky to skip through packs of mobs, but it is always done because it's possible. This is especially annoying for new players who don't know the pixel perfect path to skip for example the golems at the start of Upper Kara. There are plenty of other examples of this, where mobs are put into the dungeon but are never meant to be pulled. One dungeon I hate because of this is Junkyard, because if you take the obvious path which would be the road from Rustbolt, you are just wasting so much time.

    I think I might start a project where I tank +15's and do the route the game "suggests" only. Let's see how many angry dps I get.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    The community is toxic. That's why tanks don't want to PuG your M+ keys.

    Nothing Blizzard is going to do will fix that.
    This. I love tanking but I just can't be asked to learn a new dungeon with zero tolerance for not running it perfectly or tolerate the toxic people you find in LFG.

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