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  1. #721
    High Overlord lllll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phob View Post
    Do you remember the context of when that quote was done?
    Yes, you were saying people who are stopping at 15s now for the max reward will stop at 20s in DF for the max reward.

    A 20 is well beyond most of those peoples skill level, both now in SL and especially in DF.

    I've brought people who are doing 15s into 20 keys and they've single-handedly managed to almost make us not time it with how bad they've played. It would in a lot of cases have been easier if they just sat AFK at the start.
    Last edited by lllll; 2022-11-26 at 02:15 PM.

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by lllll View Post
    Yes, you were saying people who are stopping at 15s now for the max reward will stop at 20s in DF for the max reward.

    A 20 is well beyond most of those peoples skill level, both now in SL and especially in DF.

    I've brought people who are doing 15s into 20 keys and they've single-handedly managed to almost make us not time it with how bad they've played.
    Ease them up to a 20 instead of making them jump would be the smart thing to do. You only do those jumps when doing harder tier content and easy players don't get the concept of jumping 50% at once.


    Quote Originally Posted by lllll View Post
    It would in a lot of cases have been easier if they just sat AFK at the start.
    That still proves it's easy to do...
    Last edited by Phob; 2022-11-26 at 02:20 PM.

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    If a supposed tank and healer problem still exists, it remains entirely in the heads of the players who think they are boring or too hard to play.
    Oh there is a problem, but the people who make these threads do not want to accept the reality that the problem is not one Blizzard can really solve without really going for broke on EULA/Code of Conduct enforcement.

    I dusted off my Druid for tanking to get him through Uldamon because I knew that as Feral or Laser Poultry I wouldn't be performing anywhere near where I should because I literally only really played those specs in Legion for Mage Tower transmog. Or had a large group to hide in like LFR. I immediately braced for impact when the queue popped. I had Icy Veins' "Easy Mode" guide and on my second monitor and just followed it. There were a few rough patches where a mob or two went after the DPS but I snagged them back.

    I think one of the reasons I had it easy was the fact I had the "Bro Bear" from from Legion (initially planned for 5, ended up with like 22). I also told them I hadn't tanked on that char since Legion seeing as it's my mining/herbing primary alt. No problems though. But unfortunately my run was the exception and not the norm.

  4. #724
    High Overlord lllll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phob View Post

    That still proves it's easy to do...
    Easy for people that play well above it, yes.

    You're not going to have a team that's just capable of doing 20s that will be able to finish it with 1 person AFK.

    15 keys are easy right now because people are outgearing them like mad and they've been nerfed several times. Early in the season they weren't as easy as they are now, I tried pugging 15s on the start of the season to fill my vault out and the rate of failure to time was insanely high.

    You are vastly overestimating how good the playerbase is at the game.
    Last edited by lllll; 2022-11-26 at 02:40 PM.

  5. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by lllll View Post
    Easy for people that play well above it, yes.

    You're not going to have a team that's just capable of doing 20s that will be able to finish it with 1 person AFK.

    15 keys are easy right now because people are outgearing them like mad. Early in the season they weren't as easy as they are now, I tried pugging 15s on the start of the season to fill my vault out and the rate of failure to time was insanely high.
    I don't have that issue, and the majority of people I play with don't either. It usually takes a few hours to get to 15s then a few more to get to 20s. After that, that's when the difficulty starts. And I wouldn't say I'm great at the game, I just don't see difficulty until after 20s and what you do/buttons you press when you press then actually matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by lllll View Post
    You are vastly overestimating how good the playerbase is at the game.
    I think you are underestimating the people who actually try to play the game.
    Last edited by Phob; 2022-11-26 at 02:51 PM.

  6. #726
    High Overlord lllll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phob View Post
    I don't have that issue, and the majority of people I play with don't either. It usually takes a few hours to get to 15s then a few more to get to 20s. After that, that's when the difficulty starts.
    That doesn't mean the average +15 player is anywhere close to capable of that.

    Like I said, you're vastly overestimating how good the playerbase is at the game.

    In season 3 when I was still playing my shaman, I was often on 3rd or 4th place on DPS, as the healer in +15 pugs. Often a DPS was 5th. Sometimes I was 2nd and rarely 1st place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phob View Post


    People are always doing it day 1 though.
    People that are better than the average KSM player, yes.

    You would never see the guys doing 15s and pulling 10k dps in ilvl 300 gear doing a +15 on day 1.
    Last edited by lllll; 2022-11-26 at 03:09 PM.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Phob View Post
    Do you remember the context of when that quote was done? Let me refresh you.


    Meaning people doing them now. Meaning pre df launch. Meaning Shadowlands.

    - - - Updated - - -



    People are always doing it day 1 though.

    Just stop. You will always see a 15 as "challenging" and I will always see them as low tier. 15s are just there to give you some brownie points for doing something in the game that requires a tad bit more brain power than a "heroic" raid.
    The inability of people to relate is others is always amazing to see.

    its easy for you, that doesn't mean it easy for others or everyone.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Done. Original Death Knight design. All 3 specs were tanks and DPS, still didn't "solve" the tank problem.
    I'm no mathematician but I don't think 3 specs is all specs. Plus that's not at all what I mean since you had to swap gear and presence and even build to tank in your chosen tree. What I'm talking about is making EVERY melee tank acceptably, in any (relevant) gear, with minimal changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Subjective. I play a Discipline priest main and have my entire WoW career. No other healer plays the same, very fun and hectic playstyle. I know many others would contend with "healers are boring to play when.." sorts of statements.
    Eh. What are you even talking about? Disc is the only healer that has anything resembling an actual DPS rotation so obviously they differ and have reasons to play even in low healing situations. What I'm saying is basically that all healers should be more like Disc, obviously you agree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    "solve group content, just remove the group aspect. ez."
    Yes, because nuance isn't a thing. It's either "completely reliant on the group" or "5 DPS".

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    They tried this as well. Mistweavers had Chi-ji stance, Holy had Shockadin, restoration had Feral Affinity(?), restoration had access to CC like Hex and Wind Shear still when many heal specs have none.
    They have never tried this, no. You must be stretching to even think "mostly DPS" means "chi-ji stance" or "feral affinity" lmao.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    If a supposed tank and healer problem still exists, it remains entirely in the heads of the players who think they are boring or too hard to play.
    The problem is with the design. Blaming hundreds of thousands of players for not wanting to play something rather than blaming what it is they don't want to play makes you an idiot.

  9. #729
    Wdym by actual DPS rotation? All healers have quite a few damage spells now. Main reason the rotations are so boring is they don't have any cooldowns

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Wdym by actual DPS rotation? All healers have quite a few damage spells now. Main reason the rotations are so boring is they don't have any cooldowns
    Exactly that. Make healer DPS gameplay much more similar to DPS gameplay and you'll see the healer shortage reduce significantly. I personally think healing is the most fun role when the content is challenging, but it's the most boring role without question when the content is easy. I've never been able to main a healer for more than a single patch because of that.

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Precisely. Your situation isn't remotely comparable. You were already well-established by the time this even became a significant issue, and you clearly didn't pay attention to how the landscape changed in the meantime.

    Again, the problem isn't with people like you. It's with new tanks who are not already established and get dissuaded before even getting there. Your claims only show how dated your experience is.
    Buddy, if you think the WoW community is somehow any more toxic now than it was in 2007 then you're out of your mind.

  12. #732
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The inability of people to relate is others is always amazing to see.

    its easy for you, that doesn't mean it easy for others or everyone.
    The community or at least the people who post here are likely by and large on the spectrum and thusly the ability to empathize with others is very difficult.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's a temporary solution to a permanent problem. New tank specs will result in a temporary burst in tanks where people are interested in it because it's new; but much like the similar issue which will inevitably befall healing Evokers when you look at a longer timeline there's almost no impact at all. You'll still be waiting for tanks and healers. You will always be waiting for tanks and healers.

    It is a fundamental design choice Blizzard has gone with since the jump.

    This is simply how the game is.
    It’s not even a temporary solution: people not interested in tanking/healing won’t try a new tanking/healing spec, regardless how good or fun it is. People who chill in open world and normal/heroic dungeons like me will never ever stick with a tank or healing spec because they are not efficient in ow.

    Also not doing M+ makes the two roles redundant since there’s the automated queue for normal/heroic, I don’t care if it takes 30 minutes IF I can do other things in the meantime instead of applying and refreshing the M+ panel to the infinite and beyond.

    Again, M+ are not meant to be pugged.

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Again, M+ are not meant to be pugged.
    I couldn't disagree more. M+ is the most PuG'able thing they've ever added to the game.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    But yea if that's how the new dungeons are design like Uldaman cut me out from tanking I will just dps and there is one less tank. I was planning to tank in DF even got all my tank gear up and testing them right now.
    >.> umm...*event* uldaman is almost a singular path with one dead end boss encounter. I wouldn't at all compare it to Freehold for "getting lost" Maybe if you're talking about *classic* uldaman and trying to full clear it with that maze of tunnels and 5 bosses mixed into it with a profession trainer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. M+ is the most PuG'able thing they've ever added to the game.
    I think it depends on how high that + is... but really the way players handle grouping for mythics is legit cancer. People will be going into DF looking for AotC Baine kills for basic pugs... and that was already a joke some one was trying on a server I was playing on

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by TickerDS View Post
    Also, make tanking more about survivability and less about needing/doing dps and spot/situationally healing others.s.
    And that's how you get people to NOT play tanks.

    I want to do damage as a tank. Yeah, being a brick wall is fun, but beating dps in damage if you play good is also fun.

    So far DF they are making all tanks fun, but they are pushing healers away with M+ requiring too much healing. There will 100% be a nerf to all dungeons after first week of M+, a revert of the +40% hp / npc damage, or a flat out buff to healing (which would be dumb considering they did the +40% thing to combat healers being too powerful)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    People who chill in open world and normal/heroic dungeons like me will never ever stick with a tank or healing spec because they are not efficient in ow.
    Tanks are definitely not "not efficient" in open-world.

    I always level as tank when I can, it's just faster since I can pull an entire area of mobs, not worry about my HP at all, and everything dies quite fast. Specially in DF now that tanks are doing quite competitive damage.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    And that's how you get people to NOT play tanks.

    I want to do damage as a tank. Yeah, being a brick wall is fun, but beating dps in damage if you play good is also fun.

    So far DF they are making all tanks fun, but they are pushing healers away with M+ requiring too much healing. There will 100% be a nerf to all dungeons after first week of M+, a revert of the +40% hp / npc damage, or a flat out buff to healing (which would be dumb considering they did the +40% thing to combat healers being too powerful)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Tanks are definitely not "not efficient" in open-world.

    I always level as tank when I can, it's just faster since I can pull an entire area of mobs, not worry about my HP at all, and everything dies quite fast. Specially in DF now that tanks are doing quite competitive damage.
    Leveling up I certainly agree (also because you have the advantage of zero queues if you decide to do dungeons).

    Bare ope world end-game, I don’t. Apart from being able to solo (some) elites, for everything else for me playing a dps is more efficient.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. M+ is the most PuG'able thing they've ever added to the game.
    It is to an extent if you are a tank or healer and if you have hours a day to spend in queue.

    Not exactly my play style.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    It is to an extent if you are a tank or healer and if you have hours a day to spend in queue.

    Not exactly my play style.
    Understandable, but I sometimes experience longer queue times on tanks/healers than I do as a DPS. To each their own.

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    The community is toxic. That's why tanks don't want to PuG your M+ keys.

    Nothing Blizzard is going to do will fix that.
    100% this shit right here ^

  20. #740
    The glowing point is what was said -

    You say this is a global problem,

    but if Final Fantasy 14 not only does NOT have a tank problem. They actually DO 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 dps???

    This is a BLIZZARD problem.

    So they gave loot bags to motivate tanks. Good. Then they listened to snowflakes and removed it. Bad.

    Problem here is, Blizzard is listening to the people. The good and the bad. The people are retarded. Blizzard should listen to their own instincts - they're in the position of power, they designed their heep.

    My take.

    Or is it Blizzard's stubborness to keep the populations on servers divided, through this "Alliance and Horde", while still saying PvP will be impossible if they stop this. Final Fantasy 14...again....proves this a lie before it even starts.
    Last edited by Coolface330; 2022-11-27 at 07:19 AM.

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