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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    in-game route guides (no add-on) or single flow instances much like FF14 for M+ is about the only thing. I stopped tanking due to being expected to 100% know every instance's best pull route/order. Or they could make M+ require 98% trash clears so basically any route works cause you have to clear everything anyway no skipping pulls.
    The way I imagine it is that you could have a linear path going through the dungeon from boss to boss with specific trash that is obviously unavoidable. You can add patrols that are avoidable in that path. Clearing through that path does not give you 100% completion. Then branching from it you have several small siderooms (and the aforementioned patrols) and each group can decide which of those they'd like to tackle to get full completion. Perhaps certain seasons will force that decision on you (by spawning the affix mob/pylon/whatever in specific siderooms) but ultimately the route is no longer all about perfect pathing to avoid over pulling.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It's a bit of a tricky situation.

    Flexible routing adds a dimension of skill, which is great at the top end. But it also adds a requirement (and expectation) of skill, which sucks at the low end. I'm not sure how to solve this without screwing either side over.
    I don't know. Feels like the 'skill' at the top end comes more from pulling as much as possible and knowing these limits then about knowing what path to take, because almost everyone takes the same highly optimized route.

    Losing the extra 'skill' from routing would be a tiny loss compared to the added benefit of removing burden of knowledge from new players.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I don't know. Feels like the 'skill' at the top end comes more from pulling as much as possible and knowing these limits then about knowing what path to take, because almost everyone takes the same highly optimized route.

    Losing the extra 'skill' from routing would be a tiny loss compared to the added benefit of removing burden of knowledge from new players.
    But it's not JUST that - making dungeon pulls super linear makes them very same-y at every level, and that diminishes the experience somewhat. It also lends itself to boring dungeon design, with tons of artificial constraints and/or lifelessly empty vistas. If everything is a straight hallway simulator with pre-set pulls it really feels less like a dungeon and more like a gauntlet event.

    Is that worth the cost? It's not like dungeons are UNDOABLE right now. Sure there's pressure on tanks and that sucks big time, but how much would streamlining really fix there? Would it make tanks less of a default leader role? Would it make fast pace less of an expectation, even with straightforward and obvious pull routes?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    If people want more tanks and healers they should stop being pricks and expecting everything done as fast and easy as possible.
    When the game has a timer though it's not the players who expect everything to be done as fast as possible, it's the game itself.

  5. #105
    Is it really that much pressure on the tanks, or are people just soft?

    Joined .3 a bit late, lots of new dungeons; just went in, did some checks for trash count in Mythic Dungeon Tools and then pulled whatever I felt like pulling. Yeah I saw a couple of complaints (though I don't really pay that much attention to chat), but as long as it's going ok, who cares? They have to follow me anyway. Perfect route is relevant in high keys, not in 15+, so you can just go with trial & error approach. Seems like a lot of that pressure is self-inflicted. People are scared of not being "meta", like it's a capital sin of some sorts. Same reason you see skewed stats for things like covenants etc. etc. even when it doesn't really matter. Just queue as a tank and go your own way; as long as you're not a headless chicken (or not doing a super high key), you will complete it just fine.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Get rid of the holy trinity. Make dungeons based on personal accountability.
    Might as well make a new game then. It's too entrenched in WoW's systems on every level to change now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    When the game has a timer though it's not the players who expect everything to be done as fast as possible, it's the game itself.
    Technically true, but I think the real problem there is the double-whammy: everyone needs to go fast, but tanks also carry a lot of responsibility, and going fast PLUS having to be extra careful what you do is a tough burden for a lot of new players.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But it's not JUST that - making dungeon pulls super linear makes them very same-y at every level, and that diminishes the experience somewhat. It also lends itself to boring dungeon design, with tons of artificial constraints and/or lifelessly empty vistas. If everything is a straight hallway simulator with pre-set pulls it really feels less like a dungeon and more like a gauntlet event.

    Is that worth the cost? It's not like dungeons are UNDOABLE right now. Sure there's pressure on tanks and that sucks big time, but how much would streamlining really fix there? Would it make tanks less of a default leader role? Would it make fast pace less of an expectation, even with straightforward and obvious pull routes?
    I'd say streamlining would fix a ton. Most of the pressure on the tanks is from routes. Tanks are not the only ones responsible for CC, dps also is so if tanks have to focus on positioning when it comes to mechanics and the rest is a shared responsibility that's acceptable.

    I also don't think we'd have to change dungeons to be just hallways.
    a) as I've said earlier, if the linear path does not give you completion, you need to clear additional packs on the side.
    b) side rooms and patrols can provide you with more options on how to clear the dungeon while adding far less stress; patrols in particular are much more readily visible as something to be avoided compared to the complexity of knowing how to path through rooms with multiple packs only 1-2 of which have to be pulled (or none with a skip)
    c) what should make dungeons different is strong and different themes as well as iconic trash mobs with clear mechanics.
    d) if we want Blizzard to make less boring dungeons then imo Blizzard needs to experiment further with environment interaction. While it is almost common in raids these days to have the environment be part of the encounter, it is far less so in dungeons which is a shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Technically true, but I think the real problem there is the double-whammy: everyone needs to go fast, but tanks also carry a lot of responsibility, and going fast PLUS having to be extra careful what you do is a tough burden for a lot of new players.
    I'd say an impossible burden. Heck I am not a new player and it's still a struggle for me as someone who has tanked consistently for more than a decade to memorize so many dungeons at the start of each xpac. I feel the rotation will really help here (since I can practice the routes for the older dungeons on my own time and I am only really stressing with four dungeons at a time).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Might as well make a new game then. It's too entrenched in WoW's systems on every level to change now.
    Some form of mob control (tanking), support (healing) and damage is present in pretty much every type of game of the genre. It may have different names and less restrictions but in some format it will always be there. Ofc it can be fullfilled in rapidly different ways (instead of tanks you can just keep cranking summons to keep their melee back or conjure walls or just mass CC and go nova) and Blizzard could experiment with that but yeah there I'd say it's too late for changes. Most tanks feel miserable if they have to focus entirely on control through CC and kiting instead of being able to facetank some hits, many healers complain if there is any expectation of them to do damage.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Get rid of the holy trinity. Make dungeons based on personal accountability.
    Yeah as much as people like a game of "personal responsibility' that shit don't sell. It's why games like League, Multiversus, and Overwatch do relatively well and games like Street Fighter and Guilty Gear.

    In the first category since its team base players can reliably say "I'm good but I keep getting shitty teammates and THAT'S why I lose" where the latter since they are 1v1 the only thing you can say "I lost because the other guy was better"

    and which one do you think will cause the player to click "Next Game" more often?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    So your argument is "it could cost a raid tier"? While it would fix millions of issues, large queue times?

    I would suggest the change for matchmade gameplay at least. Mythic+ should stay as its mainly based on premade groups.

    Imagine LFR could be played without hours of queue time. Or low level dungeons could open again..
    Its not costing a raid tier its literally changing the entirety of the game to make that happen. We had Role agnostic group content and all though they were popular an issue was tanks and healers legit trivialized them and there's no reason why they wouldn't. The only solution would either end up making tanks mandatory or disallowing a decent portion of the player base to participate

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    a) as I've said earlier, if the linear path does not give you completion, you need to clear additional packs on the side.
    But that's effectively what we have now. There IS a route - few dungeons have actual alternate paths to take, mostly it's just about how to get count efficiently. The layout even in "nonlinear" dungeons like DOS is fairly simple and clear.

    The problem isn't "where do I need to go?", it's "what do and don't I need to pull to get the count right". You can't just handwave that problem away like that, going "ah well if you need more, just pull more" - that's the core issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    b) side rooms and patrols can provide you with more options on how to clear the dungeon while adding far less stress
    I'd argue it adds MORE stress, because people don't know which rooms to go to and which patrols to grab. That's counterproductive to the core issue at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    c) what should make dungeons different is strong and different themes as well as iconic trash mobs with clear mechanics.
    I think they're doing pretty well with that tbh. Dungeon themes are largely on point. Trash has by and large very splashy abilities with lots of visual indicators, barring some exceptions that I agree could do with clearer telegraphing and/or visibility in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    d) if we want Blizzard to make less boring dungeons then imo Blizzard needs to experiment further with environment interaction. While it is almost common in raids these days to have the environment be part of the encounter, it is far less so in dungeons which is a shame.
    My guess is that people don't actually like this, or at least don't like what we've had so far. The oil spurts and spirit-barrage traps in DOS for example are generally a source of frustration rather than adding to the experience. Remember the Mechagon stealth-bot maze? Vomit. The mist maze in Mists? DOUBLE VOMIT.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post

    I talked about correctly designed gameplay and not how blizzard made it. Blizzard adressed existining role strengths all the same, while the challenges every single role faces should be different. If you design propertly, you let different roles, even different specs, face challenges only the correct gameplay of their class and spec can manage.
    IE you want Blizzard to trash the game and change it to Guild Wars 2 so you can play Guild Wars 2 but wow?

  11. #111
    I would love to tank... but wow has made tanking incredibly unthankful. The current endgame forces you as a tank to know EVERYTHING. CDs of every class. Every possible route in every dungeon in every combination and if you make one mistake people leave.
    Same problem with healer but that you don't have to know routes as much but people constanly blame their mistakes on you.

    Tanking is more preperation than healing. But after you have that down every dungeon is the same unless someone fucks up badly but you cannot do anything at that point as a tank. Inside the dungeon every mistake has to be fixxed by the healer. Every death is because the healer could not fix another mistake or made a mistake himself. And DPS tend to blame EVERYTHING on the healer. Tanks are mostly arrogant assholes in PuGs becuase they think they are a god given gift to wow.

    That is why i never pug anymore for more difficult content. And bam. Never had the problem again.

    There ARE enough tanks and healers. But they mostly tend to stick to guilds and fixxed groups. Nearly everyone i know has one of either they can swap in if needed. But no one in their right mind should PuG as either.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But that's effectively what we have now. There IS a route - few dungeons have actual alternate paths to take, mostly it's just about how to get count efficiently. The layout even in "nonlinear" dungeons like DOS is fairly simple and clear.

    The problem isn't "where do I need to go?", it's "what do and don't I need to pull to get the count right". You can't just handwave that problem away like that, going "ah well if you need more, just pull more" - that's the core issue here.
    To be more exact I mean a linear route where there isn't much decision making beyond the obvious "avoid patrols". So it's not a room with 4-5 trash packs spread around and you have to path in such a way that you can avoid as many as possible or you want to pick specifically paths 2 and 5 because they give the optimal count. Instead it's a room with 2 trash packs, neither of which can be avoided sort of a skip, plus MAYBE a patrol. So every route pulls both of them (unless the group allows you to skip).
    And then you have side rooms you use to reach 100% completion and you just pick ahead of the time which 2-3 of those you are going to clear. Again you are not going in those rooms and trying to pick specific mobs out to get to 100%; it's clear packs smack in the middle of the room and you cannot really pass them.

    As you said the issue is not the path in gross terms, it is the path in fine terms; which specific pulls have to be made in the rooms you pass through. Make the pulls obvious by just placing them smack in the middle of the room or right in the entrance to the corridors/entrance to next areas. You can have packs on the side but they should be impossible to pull unless someone is an idiot or you let a runner grab them.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Get rid of the holy trinity. Make dungeons based on personal accountability.
    That just makes dungeons boring as hell... no danger anymore because personal accountability (which you have enough in wow) can only affect yourself.
    You die. rest plays on.
    No reason to play in a group anymore. You can make dungeons singleplayer at that point.

    There are games out there who favour that approach. Fine. But don't change the CORE of wow and praise it as a fix for something that doesn't need fixxing.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad and not every game needs to be the same.

    More singelplayer egocentric gameplay will only hurt wow.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    That just makes dungeons boring as hell... no danger anymore because personal accountability (which you have enough in wow) can only affect yourself.
    You die. rest plays on.
    No reason to play in a group anymore. You can make dungeons singleplayer at that point.

    There are games out there who favour that approach. Fine. But don't change the CORE of wow and praise it as a fix for something that doesn't need fixxing.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad and not every game needs to be the same.

    More singelplayer egocentric gameplay will only hurt wow.
    I mean to be fair, it doesn't necessary mean that. Because the Holy Trinity has collapsed at several points in time with M+ already. When the main gameplay involves a tank going nova with damage and defensive cooldowns to build threat and then kiting around the mobs while the dps constantly contributes to snaring and further cc and the healer is as much engaged in doing damage as they are in healing, the holy trinity is crying in a corner because the tank is more of a Control role than a Defensive role and the Healer is more a support damage dealer.
    Ofc the question is, does anyone enjoy it? As tank I'll say I may enjoy it if it is only done in a specific few pulls, I do not enjoy it if it is the entire playstyle.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    It's a new healer with a high barrier to entry. Most people sticking to their mains aren't gaining access to a new heal spec that might entice them to try out healing. If Rogue or Mage had gotten a heal spec then there would be a much bigger increase in healers as the barrier of entry would be lower, since people wouldn't have to walk away from their mains that they have an emotional investment in and prefer...
    That's very accurate and precisely my reason for staying an inflexible pure dps class. It's not the role that Im attached to as much as the character/class/fantasy itself. I don't see the point of three dps specs and if they converted or added one as a tank/healer I'd be more than happy to play it.
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Blizzard do what the players want all the time.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    You die. You receive no reward from the current encounter. You rejoin after the encounter is over. Simple. Play your spec well and you receive loot. Do not, and you receive nothing. Would solve all toxic behaviour in LFR and matchmade group play. Not having the holy trinity would remove hour long queue times..
    ..it would only solve toxic behavior because people wouldn't do it. Die and ooh darn nothing for you I'm sure a good chunk of the wow community would LOVE for that to happen. If anything would be more toxic with other players blaming eachother for losing and then abandoning it completely.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    If it was about personal accountability you could not blame any other players. Thats the main advantage about that design.
    But HOW will it be 100% personal responsibility AND group content? Does the mobs scale down if someone dies? If it's 1 mob per player does the mob despawn the second the one tanking it dies? Or is it like Diablo 3s petrified screams and the last one standing gets the loot?

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    You die. You receive no reward from the current encounter. You rejoin after the encounter is over. Simple. Play your spec well and you receive loot. Do not, and you receive nothing. Would solve all toxic behaviour in LFR and matchmade group play. Not having the holy trinity would remove hour long queue times.



    Well, you could play in a premade group, whichs setting still would need choreography. I talk about machmade gamplay mainly. Which has way too large queue times (like LFR) and no gameplay that matters as you have to water it down for group settings.



    It would fix the problem at once for matchmade groups. I personally do not really care about premade groups but would keep its gameplay untouched.
    Sure it would fix that. At the cost of remaking the complete game into another existing game. Why?
    The game you want exists.
    Also you assume everyone dislikes the trinity. If you make such a HUGE change to a nearly 2 decade old game you have to be sure that nearly everyone curretnly playing actually WANTS that. Which i highly doubt.
    You would cripple the playerbase to get what? People who would quit because of the trinity won't come back. They have their new games for 16 years now because they never liked wow in the first place.

    Death of one in a current higher mythic+ means death more often than not. So you not only have to make the game so easy that the death of anyone doesn't endager the kill... you basically have to make it so easy that even the death of 4 of the 5 means nothing. Because why not.... you play by yourself not with others.
    You also have to completly delete every form of difficult content.

    Sorry but i just don't understand why some people want to completly remake the game. Deleting the trinity is like making Baldurs Gate 2 into God of War. It is not the same game anymore in any way. It is one of the core pillars of the game.
    Sure you would not have to wait anymore. Because it is completly irrelevant who you play with and why and there won't be a reason to play with others anymore.

    I am not saying games without the trinity are bad. They are wildly different. I wouldn't even put them into the same category. Wow is groupfocused endgame. And it should stay that way otherwise why i am playing a MMO?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    If it was about personal accountability you could not blame any other players. Thats the main advantage about that design. It is about your effort and your gameplay to master the encounter.
    Except the only way for that to truly be the case is for everything to be solo content.

    As long as there's other group members, whether they're healers or tanks or not, there's always the potential to shift blame around. "I only died to the avoidable fire because I had to dodge your mechanic", "I died to avoidable add damage because you didn't kill the add fast enough", and so on and so forth.

    It would by no means solve the toxicity issues, if anything the potential for other people to cost you rewards (whether for real reasons or imagined ones) would massively INCREASE toxicity.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    It's a community issue, not something Blizzard can fix.
    It can be fixed by Blizz though because the poor information of M+ and stress of failing a key is completely manufactured.
    They could provide better in-game tools, so routes could be easier to understand and plan and they could let teams have multiple attempts on keys before they burn out.

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