How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[Ielenia]

I think tanking and healing is and always be a role that is not viable for most players. You can't learn to heal or tank by yourself, and you can't learn to heal or tank in a pug - so that limits the pool immensely.

That too.

As a DPS, I can go to a YT video, or check some online guide, and boom: I got a list of best talents, best gear and, most importantly, best rotation... while for tanks and healers? Nada. There's no "ability rotation" for tanks and healer. It's always situational.

- - - Updated - - -

Tanks doing way more dps would probably be a good way to get more people to play them lol.

Making them do more damage then lowers the luster of DPS. In decently sized pulls, sometimes tank can do more damage than the DPS.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Making them do more damage then lowers the luster of DPS. In decently sized pulls, sometimes tank can do more damage than the DPS.

Well given the market shortage of non-dps, lowering the luster of DPS seems like a net positive for the problem being discussed.

Also historically in any game, you don't have to bribe people to want to play DPS. It's the default.

But I'm not saying they should do the same dps as real dps, but an excellent tank/healer should absolutely be able to outdps a green parsing DPS player imo. Or at least be pretty close. Though they should have to make significant survivability/throughput tradeoffs to do so.

(hopefully talents do this)

[AngerFork]

The community is toxic. That's why tanks don't want to PuG your M+ keys.

Nothing Blizzard is going to do will fix that.

To some extent, sure. I love healing in WoW, but absolutely despise M+ because of the community. There's only so much Blizz can do about a community that tends to push the blame on anyone aside from themselves.

However, that's not to say that there's nothing they can do. One spot I see absolute room for improvement is in the affixes & timing nature of M+. Something like Necrotic is super annoying to tank through because it at some point just comes down to kiting. On the healing side, most M+ mechanics that aren't instantly fatal are treated as healing mechanics rather than something the DPS has to care about. Put that alongside a rushed timer that you have to meet in order to get the good loot & bring up a score in which so much of your pugging ability is based & you have a recipe for a mixture of constant stress & blaming the nearest tank/healer anytime something goes wrong.

Blizz can fix some of this, though not all. Make more mechanics something that affects DPS. Maybe it shrinks down how much damage you are doing or perhaps there are orbs you collect to increase your damage. Make adjustments so that the timer isn't the be all, end all of M+ rankings. For that matter, perhaps set up a scoring system that isn't dependent solely on M+ to define a player's worth rather than implementing Raider.io as they have done. Otherwise, the more avenues to put to increase stress, the more toxic the player base will become.

[Beuargh]

Objectively incorrect ... I can learn to DPS on my own, out in the world - with no help at all.

Be rational.

same for healers and tanks... with no help at all. I can learn my toolkit with no help at all for any role. now if you wanna learn a dongeon on the fly, then you're a problem for the group whatever your role is....

- - - Updated - - -

Why are you making this all about me, I'm stating the reason that tanks and healers are short - but you seem to have to turn it into a person attack ? Why ?

because I'm talking to you, replied to your post? and you're on every thread about this "issue" and completely refuse to admit it's a player problem, always hands on ears repeating the same stuff "I'm afraid of being kicked people are mean with me in the game I wanna DPS so someone else have to play tank for me or something is wrong ".

that's about you. the snowflake

[Swnem]

I don't think they are doing anything, but they should keep tank damage in the levels we got in season 4.
It's more fun to play tank and healer when you are doing decent damage as well.

[Beuargh]

As a DPS, I can go to a YT video, or check some online guide, and boom: I got a list of best talents, best gear and, most importantly, best rotation... while for tanks and healers? Nada. There's no "ability rotation" for tanks and healer. It's always situational.

traduction: if it's not a brain dead rotation served on a plate from some online guide, that I can do with my brain off watching netflix, it's too complicated find out by myself? to react to the situation you say?? that's EVIL :'(

you guys deserve the long queues.....

[Nymrohd]

The routing is 100% irrelevant in m+ currently unless you are doing high keys. In a 15 key you can blast through 135% trash and still 3 chest a dungeon without issues. If you can't time it while doing exactly 100% trash it just means that your group isn't skilled and/or geared enough yet.

Routes are definitely not really that big of an issue. PuGs however MAKE them a huge issue. Especially at 15s (which are by far the worst keys to PuG) but even lower, you have people who immediately throw abuse to the tank the moment you don't do the exact route they think is the best.

[Ielenia]

Well given the market shortage of non-dps, lowering the luster of DPS seems like a net positive for the problem being discussed.

Reducing the luster of the DPS does not translate into more people playing tanks and healers. At most, in translates in less players overall in the game as those that do not find as much enjoyment playing DPS but never cared to play healer or tank are not going to suddenly want to play a tank or healer, and likely will just leave the game.

Also historically in any game, you don't have to bribe people to want to play DPS. It's the default.

Because DPS is the role that does what many, if not most people want: deal big damage numbers.

- - - Updated - - -

traduction: if it's not a brain dead rotation served on a plate from some online guide, that I can do with my brain off watching netflix, it's too complicated find out by myself? to react to the situation you say?? that's EVIL :'(

you guys deserve the long queues.....

*WOOSH* goes the point miles above your head.

I'm literally pointing out how the DPS has it easy and tanks and healers have their work cut out for them in terms of learning to play their role, and how the healer and tank roles are often saddled with the responsibility of making a run go smoothly.

[Nymrohd]

Another thing for tanks that doesn't actually have to do with Dungeons (which is where the trouble is) is that it's so hard to find a raid spot as a tank in any organized raiding.

[Lathspell]

I wanted to tank to KSM this season instead of healing, but I ended up healing because I just don't have the time to check routes for new dungeons. I really like tanking, but the route thing in pugs is what stops me from doing it. I could just go and wing it, but because there is a route meta it would be very stressful at first not knowing what it is.

I think they should make dungeons in general more linear imo and have less unimportant trash. Atleast make a clear linear path that gets you 100% always in decent time if you don't wipe, and doesn't have "never pull these" types of mobs. I don't want to see 100 mobs in a room where i'm supposed to pull 10 of them. There is no way to know which mobs should be pulled or not based on in game things. You need to try and fail/get yelled at or study youtube videos and guides before going in there as tank.

Healing is the polar opposite. You can figure out most mechanics in game by just joining a group and following them. Healing is very easy at least on the 15 level and you still get into groups really easily. So that is why I will keep playing healer for my KSM grind in the future too.

[jeezusisacasual]

I don't think they are doing anything, but they should keep tank damage in the levels we got in season 4.
It's more fun to play tank and healer when you are doing decent damage as well.

I agree with this completely, it helps keep the flow a bit more interesting and gives you as a tank personal goals to work towards. The other aspect is that most people can not handle criticism at all period in this game for whatever reason its like they are a bunch of introverts or socially handicapped. Its assumed that the lower keys are where you learn routes and perfect your abilities to move you further and if people are being asshats in that level of key just put on your big boy pants and ignore them its only a right click away.

[Nymrohd]

Its assumed that the lower keys are where you learn routes and perfect your abilities to move you further and if people are being asshats in that level of key just put on your big boy pants and ignore them its only a right click away.

I am sure asking tanks to put on their big boy pants has worked wonders for improving queue times in the game!

Oh no, it hasn't.

[God Save The King]

Should be just as bad as we've seen since Legion.

M+ puts the lion's share of the pressure on the tank, so few people wish to do that role relative to the number needed. Plenty of people could run a tank spec for +15s for their vaults but refuse because of how awful it is. There have been no substantive changes in M+ for tanks, so expect the number to stay low.

Healers are in the same boat to a lesser degree.

Raids also put pressure on tank numbers, artificially limiting the tanking population to about 10% in mythic raids, where dungeons need 20%. No changes to either situation to alleviate that.


There really isn't much for an MMO to do. You could incentivize players with unique role-specific rewards. You could make tanking easier by having a singular, set path in anything below a +15 (and allow for the skips and routing that makes pushing fun available for >15). You could make tanking feel less awful by increasing their passive survival and shifting away from active mitigation. Anecdotally, the era where I saw the highest tank population was WotLK/Cataclysm where Dual Spec was available and tanking was much easier than it is today. Never had group issues or long queues on dps alts then. But at the end of the day, you need about 20% of the player population to be comfortable tanking in dungeons for there not to be a tank shortage. Short of removing that role entirely, there will likely always be a tank demand.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Another thing for tanks that doesn't actually have to do with Dungeons (which is where the trouble is) is that it's so hard to find a raid spot as a tank in any organized raiding.

This is a good point. Though also raid tanking is incredibly boring compared to dungeon tanking imo.

- - - Updated - - -

Healing is the polar opposite. You can figure out most mechanics in game by just joining a group and following them. Healing is very easy at least on the 15 level and you still get into groups really easily. So that is why I will keep playing healer for my KSM grind in the future too.

Yeah there's this thing where kinda "primadonna" healers convince themselves they are this rare snowflake who are amazing at the game, but outside of very difficult content, healing is the easiest role in the game to do "well enough," especially in raids where you often have very little decision-making with the raid leader scripting your CDs.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm literally pointing out how the DPS has it easy and tanks and healers have their work cut out for them in terms of learning to play their role, and how the healer and tank roles are often saddled with the responsibility of making a run go smoothly.

I just disagree with the first point (that fewer people will play dps) but there's no point in arguing since it is just an opinion. However for this, related to my above comment, is not really true for healers. A competent group can carry an atrocious healer very far. You could easily get 3k+ in s3 as a healer pushing a generic single target heal button and doing 0 dps if you had a good group as long as you didn't die constantly.

Mostly true for s4 also, though there are spots in the old dungeons where you do actually need to know how to heal because there's a lot of unavoidable damage (which is a nice change!)

[xenogear3]

Could do flex mode dungeons where you can have a party between 4 and 6 players.

Flex never works.
People will find out a certain number of players give more loot or easier, etc.

Just this morning, people are doing "4-man heroic run" on the classic wotlk server.

[Celvira]

There really isn't much for an MMO to do. You could incentivize players with unique role-specific rewards. You could make tanking easier by having a singular, set path in anything below a +15 (and allow for the skips and routing that makes pushing fun available for >15).

I was about to suggest this as a possible fix. FFXIV does set routes for their dungeons, and the experience is more or less stress-free, while having a very healthy population of tank players.

Players who push high-end keys aren't the target of this forum post, it is wider pool of players who only enter dungeons to run their M+ weekly quota or obtain a specific BiS piece of gear at the lowest key possible for ease of farming. Reducing the amount of out-of-game knowledge required to run a dungeon would reduce the tank anxiety, and newer tanks who are learning can focus on adapting to dungeon specific mechanics and weekly affixes (instead of being expected to know every single detail of dungeon run prior to having even ran the instance even once).

It will also have a trickle down effect for players of other roles, as "easier" dungeons will prevent/reduce the average amount of failed keys a PUG player will encounter, thus reducing toxicity across the board. Once players realize that runs that start poorly are easier to salvage, more will be inclined to stay instead of bitching and quitting on the spot.

Of course, timers may need to be adjusted, but I believe it would be a fair tradeoff for a reduction in community toxicity and the stigma that has been thrusted onto aspiring tanks.

[jeezusisacasual]

I am sure asking tanks to put on their big boy pants has worked wonders for improving queue times in the game!

Oh no, it hasn't.

Then they are not cut out to tank or take criticism either. Every avenue in life is a measurement to better yourself at whatever you are doing and should look at improving every time you do an activity. For me i have never understood the sheltered nervous reaction that some people have with regards to adversity have they never played a team sport? Have they never been held to a standard? Self reflection is a skill that needs to be learned at some point in ones life. Pressure can be a good thing.

[Itori]

They can go the route they did way back in the day with gladiator stance where a warriors shield bash could one shot most players and mobs, or like MoP where a holy paladin could 1v1 almost any class, but then everyone would be screaming tank and healer OP because their dps class no long does as much dps as the support or tank role and we're back to where we are now.

point is, the only real way to combat said "shortage" is to just play them yourself and learn how to be good at it.

[Celvira]

Then they are not cut out to tank or take criticism either. Every avenue in life is a measurement to better yourself at whatever you are doing and should look at improving every time you do an activity. For me i have never understood the sheltered nervous reaction that some people have with regards to adversity have they never played a team sport? Have they never been held to a standard? Self reflection is a skill that needs to be learned at some point in ones life. Pressure can be a good thing.

I understand the point you are making, but expecting the tank, and ONLY the tank, to dedicate hours of out-of-game time studying dungeon layouts isn't the answer either. Tank difficulty, knowledge, and skill expression should come from mechanics and masterful execution of affixes, not in overcoming the horrific community itself.

[schwarzkopf]

same for healers and tanks...

That's objectively incorrect.