How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[Vakna]

Sigh. No, most of the time they don't. Why are threads like this always ridden with exaggeration?
"As a tank, you always need to know the perfect route!" - no, you don't.
"One mistake and people instantly leave!" - no, in most situations they don't.

Sure, it sometimes happens (though more often than not there's an underyling cause, like overall DPS being low, which will of course create all kinds of problems, or DPS not accustomed with the kick mechanic, which will prolly make the healer leave, etc. etc.). But if there's at least a modicum of skill in the group and you don't die on the very first pull, people will stay after an odd wipe. It's really not that complex of a situation. Group's doing good, mobs fall over quickly, but we wiped due to an odd mistake? We continue. Damage is low, DPS forgot to bind kicks? Yeah, I can see the group falling apart after a wipe - but the wipe is not the actual problem.

Players, generally, are not THAT dumb; they know when they can succeed and when it's going to be a painful experience. If it's the latter, you can't blame them.

We must be playing different games.

[loras]

I mean I don't mind keeping morons from harm as long as they are friendly, funny morons *waves to guildmates

Fair enough on that.
I usually don't play for prolongued periods of time so i have no go-to group of friendly and funny morons.
The closest thing i've found so far was a random french guild that i helped semi-pug some of those halfway-through bosses (the downstairs ones) of ny'alotha mythic.

Naturally my luck dictated that my internet would die for several days straight after, and i never found them again.

[Voidling]

That's a nice dream, but it still wouldn't help. People will still ditch keys at the slightest whiff of a problem because it's the people not the system that is the root cause. Nobody ever thinks they are the problem, it's always that other guy on the team, and no amount of retries will make them stay when they are convinced the team is shit and going nowhere. It also doesn't solve any of the problems that dump most of the responsibility on tanks, it wont make more tanks play and fix any of the role imbalance problems.

I totally agree there too much pressure is on the tank and there will still be terrible ppl who ditch over nothing. I personally love tanking but will not touch M+ because I don't want to deal with that kind of community. That said, this behavior is completed cultivated by the game because a failed run is designed to be wasted time. Raids, PvP and M+ all have an ALL or NOTHING design and this has led to WoW having such an elitist community. You get no score, no loot, and no currency for failure, and it very much turns players against each other since one person's shortcoming is a group's loss. The fact that Mythic IO, an addon to judge and filter ppl, is necessary for the community should be taken as a major failure on the devs part.

If Blizz made M+'s failed attempts less punishing, then players will be more willing to stick around. Give ratio'd valor for failed runs based on completion. Allow groups to restart quickly and get back to another attempt. Give better tools for marking such as being able to highlight multiple mobs so groups have clear vision and understand of what's to hit or avoid. Give lower keys safeguards such as checkpoints so there is more room for experimenting while the higher keys still maintain a competitive environment. They could even reward high-end IO players who help lower IO players by offering additional rewards like valor, or currency for consumables that give sockets/tertiary effects.

[Rageonit]

We must be playing different games.

The game I'm talking about is called World of Warcraft. I'm playing on Spinebreaker EU; would you like to join me so I can prove it to you people don't instantly leave after a single mistake? I have a geared up tank, healer and DPS; we can even try some crazy routes to test people's patience.

[Lathspell]

I totally agree there too much pressure is on the tank and there will still be terrible ppl who ditch over nothing. I personally love tanking but will not touch M+ because I don't want to deal with that kind of community. That said, this behavior is completed cultivated by the game because a failed run is designed to be wasted time. Raids, PvP and M+ all have an ALL or NOTHING design and this has led to WoW having such an elitist community. You get no score, no loot, and no currency for failure, and it very much turns players against each other since one person's shortcoming is a group's loss. The fact that Mythic IO, an addon to judge and filter ppl, is necessary for the community should be taken as a major failure on the devs part.

If Blizz made M+'s failed attempts less punishing, then players will be more willing to stick around. Give ratio'd valor for failed runs based on completion. Allow groups to restart quickly and get back to another attempt. Give better tools for marking such as being able to highlight multiple mobs so groups have clear vision and understand of what's to hit or avoid. Give lower keys safeguards such as checkpoints so there is more room for experimenting while the higher keys still maintain a competitive environment. They could even reward high-end IO players who help lower IO players by offering additional rewards like valor, or currency for consumables that give sockets/tertiary effects.

I agree. Three most important things I would do to change M+ would be:

1) No forced key depletion if you fail a run
2) Clear (shown in game, like a road through a big area or something) basic path in every dungeon that gets you 100% count in a reasonable time
3) Account wide M+ rating and rewards

[Vakna]

The game I'm talking about is called World of Warcraft. I'm playing on Spinebreaker EU; would you like to join me so I can prove it to you people don't instantly leave after a single mistake? I have a geared up tank, healer and DPS; we can even try some crazy routes to test people's patience.

I guess I was a little too literal in my post, many times people do stay after a single mistake yes, but I guess it also depends on the key levels you run and the severity of the mistake. Either way, the issue is still a community problem and no amount of retries are going to solve anything.

I'm just sharing my experiences of being a tank main since M+ became a thing and the reasons why I haven't engaged with pugs since 2019 and why I never will again, and I know that many of my fellow tanks also hold that stance, because engaging with pugs is just not worth it. So not only is there fewer tanks than there needs to be, but a lot of them wont even run with pugs because, by and large, the M+ running community is a cesspit of misplaced blame and toxic attitudes.

[Ezyah]

How are YOU solving the shortage of tank ? Can you tank ?

[Rageonit]

3) Account wide M+ rating and rewards

This is a horrible, horrible idea. You having 3k score on your Hunter says nothing about your ability to heal or tank a dungeon (or even DPS it on a different class). As a rule of thumb, you never invite people to your group based on their alt score (which addons like RaiderIO could show you since ages).

Idea 1) is good, idea 2) is neither good nor bad; IMO, it's best to have a mix of dungeons - some with clear path, some with variation. Simply for the sake of longevity.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess I was a little too literal in my post, many times people do stay after a single mistake yes, but I guess it also depends on the key levels you run and the severity of the mistake. Either way, the issue is still a community problem and no amount of retries are going to solve anything.

I'm just sharing my experiences of being a tank main since M+ became a thing and the reasons why I haven't engaged with pugs since 2019 and why I never will again, and I know that many of my fellow tanks also hold that stance, because engaging with pugs is just not worth it. So not only is there fewer tanks than there needs to be, but a lot of them wont even run with pugs because, by and large, the M+ running community is a cesspit of misplaced blame and toxic attitudes.

This is something I've already commented on earlier in this thread. People often don't need external pressure, beacause they already put pressure on themselves. Meanwhile, as a tank, you can go into a 15 and do your own route, and finish the dungeon easily. You DON'T need to know "perfect" route, just do the one that you're comfortable with. I'm doing this constantly in 2022, so I guess my experience is more recent than yours. I went into 9.2.5 with no knowledge of the "meta" routes and the worst thing that happened were some complaints in the chat which I simply ignored. Of course if you do something braindead like pulling 3 groups when people have zero CDs, than obviously the group can fall apart, but at least it's warranted. If you play carefully enough, doing mid level M+ requires less knowledge than some posters here claim.

Obviously high level keys is a different story, but there, those meta routes exist for a reason. And it's not like you can't have variation there; you can, but it has to be justified.

[Voidling]

This is a horrible, horrible idea. You having 3k score on your Hunter says nothing about your ability to heal or tank a dungeon (or even DPS it on a different class). As a rule of thumb, you never invite people to your group based on their alt score (which addons like RaiderIO could show you since ages).

Idea 1) is good, idea 2) is neither good nor bad; IMO, it's best to have a mix of dungeons - some with clear path, some with variation. Simply for the sake of longevity.

(2) is where I suggest showing mob %'s and allowing ppl to highlight mobs. If the group has a hunter, shaman or warlock then they can use their farsight/eagle eye/eye of kilrogg to scout ahead and mark mobs. This would let these players build a route for tanks who are less experienced. They could even add a feature to let group leaders or assistants draw on the map and have it show on the minimap. That way you could draw a line and follow it through the dungeon.

[xjentai]

I play one class/spec since Wolk and thats Blood DK. I rarely play alts. and i rarely have been doing pug activities because of the toxic nature. But for Season4 of SL i tried some pugs as my guild is in a semi-sleep mode till next expansion. And i must say i was surpised. I don't know why it was but of over 70 runs i had 2 bad experiences with 1 person in those 2 groups.
- maybe because horde and alliance are together? so less frustration that dps have less long queues?
- or i was lucky tobe in that zone were people are like me, doing the content for the gear and skill you have, and not try to get boosted. Which might be proven due to the fact i had those bad experiences in groups where i was just getting my +15 done for my 8 runs a week. while all other runs were to get the 20's done for portals.

Though after the 4th week of S4, you started to feel that the toxic players had reached +20's aswell, as they started impossing routes and tactics and speed according to a post on wowhead, and if you didnt .... ow boy. Luckely by then i had my portals and i stopped pug M+ for the expansion. also came across a group of people that need a tank to complete their group, so now and then i join them.

[Myradin]

Tank/healer shortage in FF14 is a lot lower despite having even worse group compositions with 1T:1H:2D.

So maybe, just maybe it could have to do with design in some way?

As someone who tanks in FF and doesn't in WoW. It again comes down to the community.

In WoW if i mess up I'm the scum of the earth and shouldn't have been born.

In FF I've been told I'm not pulling fast enough like twice...in a year.

That said, FF is also very strong on teaching you the fight rather than expect you to read a guide or learn by wiping. If there's a game design effect I think its how the game communicates with the player. A WoW tank needs to know everything, while an FF tank just needs to observe his or her surroundings.

[Rageonit]

(2) is where I suggest showing mob %'s and allowing ppl to highlight mobs. If the group has a hunter, shaman or warlock then they can use their farsight/eagle eye/eye of kilrogg to scout ahead and mark mobs. This would let these players build a route for tanks who are less experienced. They could even add a feature to let group leaders or assistants draw on the map and have it show on the minimap. That way you could draw a line and follow it through the dungeon.

When I start a season as a tank and don't know the dungeons well, the easiest dungeons for me are the ones with plenty of trash in the area surrounding the last boss - think Mists of Tirna Scithe. Those mobs are there for a reason (you never know your path through the maze, so you have to have something in the end to make up for a shorter route), but it works in general. Worst you can have is something akin to Sanguine Depths - if you lack trash after the gauntlet, you're basically screwed. So I'd argue every dungeon should have a couple of "extra" groups close to last boss, just in case you didn't pull something. That'd make tanks life a bit easier, without any drastic changes needed.

[Celement]

As someone who tanks in FF and doesn't in WoW. It again comes down to the community.

In WoW if i mess up I'm the scum of the earth and shouldn't have been born.

In FF I've been told I'm not pulling fast enough like twice...in a year.

That said, FF is also very strong on teaching you the fight rather than expect you to read a guide or learn by wiping. If there's a game design effect I think its how the game communicates with the player. A WoW tank needs to know everything, while an FF tank just needs to observe his or her surroundings.

FF is also world easier then wow. That isn't a knock against the game but it breeds a different atmosphere. FF difficulty caps out ar a mythic 5 if we are being generous and a heroic raid.

[Rageonit]

Oh, and back to the main topic - you could argue getting rid of Inspiring and Necrotic is actually a nod towards the tanks, because those were one of the most taxing affixes, in terms of personal responsibility for the tank and knowledge of the proper routing, which was so much more critical during Inspiring weeks. So yeah, tanks should have it better (or at least easier) in DF.

[xjentai]

They are removing inspired? must have missed that. That's the only i hate doing. Same as what we had before "teaming".

[BeepBoo]

Two things that would need to be done to make tanks/heals more popular.

1) all content needs the same ratios. Meaning raids need a ratio of 1:1:3 tank/heal/dps.
2) Tanks and healers need to be less responsible for the group's success or afforded more ability to make mistakes without catastrophic failures.

Tank drops aggro for a sec? Nbd. DPS can run to tank and give it back.
Healer can't keep up with throughput of healing needs? No problem. Turns out most damage is actually avoidable with positioning, so you don't even NEED healing if the rest of your group is on-point!

Obviously, that's a large departure from the current design, but I don't see many people wanting to take on the immense difference in responsibility in addition to the fact that I just don't think people enjoy being support or taking hits nearly as much as they like dealing the big hits. So it then becomes a question of "how do we design the game so that people can all complete content with the proportions of tanks/healers/dps as they actually exist?"

[chiddie]

it doesnt, bcs it cant...that is 100% player driven problem



then play a tank/healer yourself...
you dont want to? well neither does shitloads of people, hence the shortage, its not a game issue its people issue...

No one wanting to play tank/healer is in part definitely a game issue. If playing a tank/healer was as fun as playing a dps, there would be less shortage. It’s clearly not basically since forever, hence the shortage.

[Relapses]

9 expansions in but it's suddenly DF's duty to solve an unsolvable problem?

Meh. Sounds like this is an excuse for people to provide their novel solutions about how single player instances will save the game or some shit.

[dragonflight10]

I think tanking and healing is and always be a role that is not viable for most players. You can't learn to heal or tank by yourself, and you can't learn to heal or tank in a pug - so that limits the pool immensely.

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If you want to be a tank or a healer, then you need the support of other people to do so - if you don't have said support, then that isn't your fault.

How on earth that you cannot learn to tank or heal in a pug or by yourself ? go do m0 ppl won't care if you fail few times

[Relapses]

No one wanting to play tank/healer is in part definitely a game issue. If playing a tank/healer was as fun as playing a dps, there would be less shortage. It’s clearly not basically since forever, hence the shortage.

Fun's pretty subjective in this example. I like playing all three roles but mostly default to tanking or healing because I also don't like waiting 15 years for my groups to form.