Why ask to remove instead of asking to add a mode without a timer? Seriously, what is this mentality? There are people who enjoy the timer, enjoy the achievement of pushing and it definitely is required to create the gameplay that exists at high level keys.
This isn't just about WoW, this is about people's attitude in life in general. If someone else is enjoying something, how does that harm you? FFS grow up.
Absolutely would love a separate mode of M+ that has increased difficulty but does not have a timer. I've said it before, add an Epic mode that is untimed, has the difficulty of e.g. Mythic 9, 15, 21 and gives equivalent rewards to Mythic 6, 12, 18. Add a weekly lockout to it like Base Mythic has and you have 8 different +21 runs to complete at your leisure with friends or PuGs through the week.
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Which is probably for the best. The huge clump of people doing only 15s is the main reason M+ PuGing has such a bad rap. The social experience below and above 15 is MUCH better.
the people doing M+ purely for Vault will keep doing M+ purely for Vault because they have no alternative for the gear. By changing it from +15 to +18 your not going to make pugging less toxic, but more because the same crappy people will still be running a now more difficult dungeon.
If you want M+ pugging to become less toxic you need to do the opposite and make it easier, not harder.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
It's not about you having an opinion (asking for an additional mode with no timer is fine); it's about you not caring about the opinions of others. Like he said, plenty of people enjoy the timer, and I guess you just don't give a damn, because your solution to have fun is all about taking the fun away from someone else.
But this isn't an opinion. You'd be sharing an opinion if you said "I don't like M+ having a timer". In no way does that opinion logically lead directly and only to "The timer should be removed". That is your CHOICE. And your choice is to get what you'd like by taking away from others instead of by asking for what you want. Instead of something that can lead to a constructive discussion you immediately attack the gameplay of many other players. Instead of getting people to consider what you want, you force them to defend their choice of gameplay. That's just not a smart way to ask for change.
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I think those people will fail multiple times at +18 and quit it.
Sure, and something tells me the first season of DF will be an unfortunate experience because of it. But they will eventually quit if they keep failing. PuGs cannot carry you through an 18, you'd need actual boosters for that (oh wait, another thing that helps with boosting!)
I find "shoving undesirables out of my game" almost always leads to large groups of players quitting, devs putting in less and less resources because the dwindling player count doesn't make it worth it and the game then dying out while people still run around shouting that everything would become perfect is only more undesirables were chased away.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
But dungeons will not be too hard, just the upper level that rewards Mythic loot will actually be at about the challenge of an entry level Mythic boss. Which is great imo. Just add Valor and let people who clear e.g. 25s be able to upgrade their loot all the way to Raszageth loot.
I think tanking in WoW is too much work. I also play FFXIV not savage raid but I do ulimate raids and also the random and I tank heal and dps depending on my mood. Tanking is very straightforward in FFXIV there is no % count for mobs, and there are fewer mechanics tanks have to look out for, Also all the router is the same there are no shortcuts or mobs you have or can avoid. That's comparing dungeons to dungeons. Now in raids I think both FFXIV and WoW is more of less the same.
So why would I want to tank for dungeons in WOW when I have a laundry list of things to do and remember and be the person to be responsbility for. Then you have the toxic community. One mistake and people cuss out at you. In FFXIV people are so chill even with multiple wipes no one cares people try to make it work.
If WoW want people to tank more:
-Take less responsibility off the tanks. Design dungeons that are more linear with no mobs you can skip and make it so that to get 100% trash you simply kill all the trash and boss in each dungeon.
-Make dps take more responsibility make so their interupt is on a short CD vs tanks or healers who have a much longer CD on interupt so DPS is to one to interupt or make it so mbs don't have reteruptable abilities that hits hard. That way tank don't have to worry as much.
- Come done hard on the player. Ban any form or hrassment clean house. Make so if you are going to an a hole or a jerk in a group you are going to get ban. Lot's people want to learn to tank but you have other players who outright treat them so bad they just give up.
-Come up with mechanics that isn't so harsh on melee or tanks in general Look at the affix Bursting, Sanguine, Spiteful, Explosive, Grievous, Necrotic all affect melee heavily and as a tank I hate dealing with it. Make some next affix that affect range maybe? Necrotic is so bad so tank
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I love tanking FFXIV. So much fun is straight forward. Even if a mistake is made it won't kill you. It might be boring to others but the linear design of the dungeon means I don't have to count % or which route to take. Raids is also fun for normal you don't die if you make a mistake or two sure you get a debuff but it won't kill out unless you keep doing it. In umilate raids sure it gets a bit harder but again is fun content. Is the community. They don't get mad over a wipe or leave people are more relax and yes lalafel is the best.
Last edited by sponge5307; 2022-10-06 at 05:42 PM.
Untill blizzard starts actually putting thought into dungeon layout the tank problem will remain a problem forever on end. They know how players work and how they handle dungeons, yet still do nothing about the "Avoid as much as possible MOVE MOVE MOVE" dungeon design which breeds such a god awful community.
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WoW dungeons are just as linear. The only difference is that WoW's linear is community enforced and GOD HELP YOU IF YOU DONT KNOW THE PATH.
World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg
This is actually a good point. There are a lot of places where it is really finicky to skip through packs of mobs, but it is always done because it's possible. This is especially annoying for new players who don't know the pixel perfect path to skip for example the golems at the start of Upper Kara. There are plenty of other examples of this, where mobs are put into the dungeon but are never meant to be pulled. One dungeon I hate because of this is Junkyard, because if you take the obvious path which would be the road from Rustbolt, you are just wasting so much time.
I think I might start a project where I tank +15's and do the route the game "suggests" only. Let's see how many angry dps I get.
As always i think the problem is not the shortage of tanks, but the players behavior towards them in pugs. Want more tanks? Be nice to them. Wait etc.
Plenty of tanks but they do not pug as tanks.
I love tanking specs like Blood / Guardian / Vengeance, but only use it solo or with friends and family so to speak
My solution is to have a NPC tanking for pugs. Problem solved ^^
Last edited by Gratlim; 2022-10-10 at 12:20 PM.
then you dont like the idea of m+, just the idea of dungeons...
good news for you, you can find other people who dont like timers and finish m+ while COMPLETELY ignoring the timer... literaly right now, you can do that, no point of removing timer from it, which people actualy do like...
and if you cant find people to do dungeon without timer? well, then i guess its just YOU who dont like it, so tough luck, adapt or move on
Last edited by Lolites; 2022-10-10 at 12:24 PM.